$1.10 NLHE : I know I was outplayed, should I of let the hand go though?

[RamdeeBen]

Hi guys, had a MTT last night. I know I was outplayed and was drawing a flush which I hit in the end and got raised all-in which I just couldn't fold although if i'm honest I didn't think I was up against a FH, more trips or lower flush. Thoughts of how this hand played out would be great thanks.

Oh and by the way, I have to point out Flipout was a very passive player who called most raises preflop with anything. The other guy had raised previously with A,6 suited etc 3x BB. I honesty thought he might of raised with A,K suited or anything as low as Ace,deuce suited and I thought I had him covered. Several times after a continuous bet against him i re-raised and he folded so I had a gut feeling he was up to something and maybe had the nuts of flush draw because he was just calling flipouts bets. This should of put a light on I think now however I did think I had the best hand regardless of the paired board. I thought maybe Ace, 7 in which case I was already beat, however I thought he had maybe King high flush draw or trips but just couldn't let the hand go at the end.

In hindsight now, after all his passive calls and all of a sudden all-in bet on the river I thought either a complete bluff although I didn't think it was possible because he played it so different to when he didn't really have much of a hand or he had the nuts, in this case he did. I'm just wondering, what you guys would of done in this position? Would you of let it go?

I did just call his preflop raised..the only reason I call this with A,K suited is so no one can really put me on a hand and besides I'm always cautious around A,K i often have to let it go 9times out of 10 on the flop it seems a terrible starting hand for me I can only recall counting on one hand its has won me a hand. In the end at the show down I actually had the worse hand, now...If I was playing a lot conservative players I'd of let the hand go but I saw numerous time's the pair of them in big pots showing one pair..was I wrong?

Seat 1: sam859 (6750 in chips)
Seat 2: Bossy Bear (2130 in chips)
Seat 3: ramdeebam (1950 in chips)
Seat 4: MR_Mattell (9355 in chips)
Seat 5: pudding29 (5455 in chips)
Seat 6: flipout1000 (9232 in chips)
Seat 7: LUFC_ACES (3915 in chips)
Seat 8: Jestful (5200 in chips)
sam859: posts the ante 20
Bossy Bear: posts the ante 20
ramdeebam: posts the ante 20
MR_Mattell: posts the ante 20
pudding29: posts the ante 20
flipout1000: posts the ante 20
LUFC_ACES: posts the ante 20
Jestful: posts the ante 20
pudding29: posts small blind 75
flipout1000: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ramdeebam [Kh Ah]
LUFC_ACES: folds
Jestful: folds
sam859: raises 150 to 300
Bossy Bear: folds
Al-plumb is connected
ramdeebam: calls 300
MR_Mattell: folds
pudding29: folds
flipout1000: calls 150
*** FLOP *** [Ad 7h 7c]
flipout1000: bets 150
sam859: calls 150
ramdeebam: calls 150
*** TURN *** [Ad 7h 7c] [8h]
flipout1000: bets 150
sam859: calls 150
ramdeebam: calls 150
*** RIVER *** [Ad 7h 7c 8h] [2h]
flipout1000: bets 750
sam859: raises 5380 to 6130 and is all-in
ramdeebam: calls 1330 and is all-in
flipout1000: calls 5380
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sam859: shows [Ac As] (a full house, Aces full of Sevens)
flipout1000: shows [2c 2d] (a full house, Deuces full of Sevens)
sam859 collected 9600 from side pot
ramdeebam: shows [Kh Ah] (a flush, Ace high)
sam859 collected 6025 from main pot
ramdeebam finished the tournament in 79th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 15625 Main pot 6025. Side pot 9600. | Rake 0
Board [Ad 7h 7c 8h 2h]
Seat 1: sam859 showed [Ac As] and won (15625) with a full house, Aces full of Sevens
Seat 2: Bossy Bear folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: ramdeebam showed [Kh Ah] and lost with a flush, Ace high
Seat 4: MR_Mattell (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: pudding29 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: flipout1000 (big blind) showed [2c 2d] and lost with a full house, Deuces full of Sevens
Seat 7: LUFC_ACES folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Jestful folded before Flop (didn't bet)

 

[cjatud2012]

jam pre-flop.

jam flop.

jam turn.

play more aggressively imo, especially with a stack as shallow as yours.

 

[thunder1276]

You definitely played that way to passively. With sam playing pretty loose and with any A you have to assume when you are good here. That being said, a good rule of thumb is to bet or raise when you think you have the best hand. With an M of about 5 (meaning you have enough chips to play only 5 more rounds) you have to find a good hand and take it all the way. I would have reraised all in preflop to try and take the pot down right there. calling is the worst play there I think against such a loose player because chances are you have him beat and you are letting him take a cheap flop and giving him a chance to draw out on you. You also allowed the BB to get in cheaply giving him a chance to hit the flop. Im not sure whether an all in or a raise to about 800 preflop is better. I think you have a few to many chips to shove but with a smaller raise if you get called and miss the flop your basically crippled. Also, there was no way you could have gotten away from that hand after the flop. With your call pre I would have raised all in on the flop

 

[Rldetheflop]

definitely put it in pre. Sure you are getting snapped off by AA here but that happens sometimes. 12.5 blinds with a raise in front AK=put it in baby!!!

And no we shouldnt be letting this hand go at any point here.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Perfect spot to 3bai here with this stack size.

 

[Four Dogs]

With 13 big blinds AK (suited or not) is a shoving hand preflop but calling isn't horrible. Slow playing TPTK in a is a mortal sin and requires immediate intervention.

 

[teepack]

No problems with anything until the river. With flush draws and a paired board, a big bet and shove in front of you, not sure why you called there. You were actually going to get out of that hand relatively cheaply. You still would have have 8 BBs left.

I also would not have minded a preflop shove with AK and only 13 BBs. Yea, the outcome would have been the same, but at least you would have gone out with guns blazing.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

your stack is too short to consider doing anything else besides getting it all in. At EVERY decision point in this hand you missed a perfect opportunity to jam. preflop, flop, turn, river. folding is not an option at any point in this hand. even as played on the river....uhm you have the nut flush and you'll only have like 9bb left if you fold and you'll have like 40bb if you call and win. That is not the situation to make a tight fold.

Optimal way to play this hand? jam pre. I understand your hesitance with AK, but your past results should not affect your future decisions. you don't have some kind of personal bad luck that makes AK a worse hand for you than the math suggests. With a deep stack and AKs flatting here can be OK. But pretty much any time you have 25bb or less you just gotta 3bet jam with AK here.

 

[jordanbillie]

Perfect spot to jam pre flop. And I will reiterate a point I made from a previous thread, it's a $1 MTT just get it in.

 

[ph_il]

If you're playing AK this passively preflop, I can understand why you're losing with it 9/10 times.

I feel silly c/p'ing my own posts from other threads, but I think this applies.

AK suited or unsuited is a very strong hand preflop and you should be raising/3betting preflop with this hand as often as you can. Like most big hands, you want to limit the number of players that see a flop against you, so raising to isolate is what you're looking for. Against almost all players, playing AK aggressively is much better than playing it passively.

Hitting and missing flops with AK:

AK is going to pair on the flop about 1/3 of the time, always giving you TP/TK which is often times the best hand at show down. Even if an A or K hits on a dry board, you should still c-bet as the aggressor because your opponents will call you with much worse on really standard c-bet looking flops. For example 88 might call a c-bet on an A 2 7 flop.

AK is going to miss the flop 2/3 of the time, but they still have equity to win the hand. In the J 3 7 flop example, even though AK missed, being the aggressor and c-betting can easily pick up the pot. And if the opponent calls, you have a ~12% chance to hit the turn. ~24% chance if you can see a turn a river if you shove and get called, for example.

So, c-betting most flops with AK is going to earn you the pot more often than not even if you do miss it, but you have to keep in mind your opponents raising and 3bet calling range. The tighter the range, the less equity you have against them when c-bet on missed flops. The wider the range, the more equity you have.

AK vs other hands:

I think a common misunderstanding a lot of newer players have are the preflop odds to win with AK vs other hands.

In the thread, a member mentioned that 67 is 40% to win against AK's 60%. And yes, this is true but it only applies if you are guaranteed to see all 5 cards. Otherwise, AK has much more equity over 67 on most flops when both miss and even when 67 hits a single pair after calling a preflop and is facing c-bet aggression. Even on flop of 6-Q-2, it could be hard to call a c-bet with MP/WK since the turn can bring a lot of over cards that can shut it down, especially if AK fires a 2nd barrel.

The same goes for 22 vs AK. Yes, this is a classic race situation, but again, that only applies if all 5 cards are seen. AK as a lot of equity against 22 because 88% of the time over cards are going to flop. So, even if AK misses, it's very hard for 22 to continue on a 5-8-10 flop facing a c-bet.

A member said that 22 and QQ against AK is practically the same thing and this is not true at all. Yes, AK vs QQ is 50/50 preflop if all cards to be seen. However, AK doesn't have as much equity on a missed flop against QQ as it does 22. Going back to the OP, a 3-J-7 flop is going to be very hard for 22 to continue against a c-bet, but it's very easy for QQ to continue. Again, the tighter the raise/3bet calling range your opponent has, the less equity you have on missed flops.

Shoving vs calling shoves with AK

Aggression is the key when playing AK because you can either win it by having the best hand or by getting your opponent to fold. So, you would rather be one to be betting/shoving than being the one calling shoves on missed flops.

Preflop, we are always jamming 10BBs or 3bet jamming when stacks are ~25BBs or less. We are only behind AA and KK, but since we hold 2 of those cards, the chances of running into those hands are reduces, but not impossible. Against all other possible holdings, we're either in a 50/50, 60/40, or 70/30 situation. So we're in really good shape to win against a large number of hands with AK when we shove and we're also maximizing our value when getting called by weaker hands since they no longer have the option to fold if they miss. Lets say we have 10BBs and just limp in with AK. Folded to BB who checks with KQ. Flop is A-5-9. We bet, BB folds and we win a small pot but lose out on the extra 8BBs BB would've have paid us if we shoved.

AK, on a missed flop, has ~24% chance of hitting on the turn or river when facing a shove. So, you'll need to be getting over 3.15:1 pot odds to make this call a profitable one. However, if we flip and we're the one's shoving with AK on a missed flop, say 7-J-3, we still have equity to hit when called, but make it hard for some hands to call with, like 55, so we gain when they fold. Being the aggressor gives us 2 ways to win vs only 1.

Whether you should standard c-bet missed flop or shove it with AK depends on effect stack sizes. If stacks are deep, then you're better off making a standard c-bet. You'll either win the pot uncontested and if your opponent calls, you can re-evaluate on the turn. However, with deep stacks, you don't want to shove on a missed flops because your opponent is still folding if they miss, but they're only calling your shove with hands that have you beat. Even with your ~24% to hit on turn or river, you're not getting the right pot odds to make this type of play profitable.

So, when should you be shoving with AK? Preflop, it's pretty standard you should be shoving with AK when you're short stacked. You should 3bet shove if you have a stack where a standard 3bet is committing you to the pot since you wont have any fold equity on the flop if you shove. You also commit yourself if your opponent 4 bets and folding after putting in 50% of your stack preflop/on the flop is just bad. At least 3bet shoving preflop you have fold equity preflop and some if called. On the flop, you should be shoving if your stack is about equal to the pot or less, or if a standard c-bet commits you to the pot of you're raised/called.

 

[joe777]

Hard to get away from this hand especially when the villain only min-raise(trapping) but i would still shove pre.

 

[WiZZiM]

Perfect spot to 3bai here with this stack size.

lol @ reviving a 5 year old thread XD

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

lol @ reviving a 5 year old thread XD

Haha! This makes so much more sense now! I knew ramdeeben was a good player so I was scratching my head....I wonder what "gems" some of my first posts contain?

 

[Poker Orifice]

lol @ reviving a 5 year old thread XD

Good read

 

[ph_il]

Haha! This makes so much more sense now! I knew ramdeeben was a good player so I was scratching my head....I wonder what "gems" some of my first posts contain?

Holy smokes. After reading this, I went back and read some of my earlier posts. Some of them were hilarious.

CC throwback post thread, anyone?

 

[trent32la]

lol @ the people seriously commenting not realizing this was a 5-year old thread

I had wondered at first why Ramdee was posting a hand from a $1.10 MTT.

 

[WiZZiM]

Holy smokes. After reading this, I went back and read some of my earlier posts. Some of them were hilarious.

CC throwback post thread, anyone?

Yes i think that's a great idea for a thread, i also looked at a few of my posts back in 2010 and cringed lol

 

[joe777]

Haha! This makes so much more sense now! I knew ramdeeben was a good player so I was scratching my head....I wonder what "gems" some of my first posts contain?

I was wondering the same things too actually lol.