$1.1 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: 77 mid pos, deep 40 left

eetenor

eetenor

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Hey all

Should we fold this combination pre?

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/524ZJJIbI


Unfortunately that was a huge chance that opp hit it after the re-raise, it made sense only. But I couldn't slow it down. So I guess the mistake was that I joined to this family pot.


Thank you for posting.

The error was not preflop so the solution is not preflop. Yes this was a cooler but we do not want to over adjust our ranges because of this outcome.

As we learn and grow we want to improve our ability to refine ranges on each street especially when we are near top of range but not nutted.

So it would be a good exercise for you to reply to this post with what range you expect the EP Villain to check raise here and why you would only call on the flop based on that range.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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300HPGOD

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Unless there is a very aggressive 3 bettor to your left I think is a slam dunk call especially with two players already in. You can set mine here and play a hand that plays pretty easily post flop (you miss, you fold). I would be in the mindset where starting the hand with 50 BBs I would not be folding a set if I were to flop it.

On the flop I think your flop bet is mandatory and sizing at half pot might even be on the large side but with 3 opponents you should be able to find a taker here (unfortunately they had it) so the sizing is fine in the end. When villain check raises me I would be thinking they could have a set of jacks but again, at 50 BBs to start the hand I am not folding here. I would make them have JJ and this being a $1.10 buy in (not saying that as a negative as this is what I play as well) you will see non nut hands make a play like this especially when you bet and there is a caller in the middle. I would have flatted the raise just as you did since raises there will/could fold out 1 pair hands.

I dont love the turn card as I see 98 as a hand that could have done this on the flop as a semi bluff that would work most of the time against villains with non sets and non good kicker Jx hands, but I already said above I would not be folding here so I would call and get the bad news as you did. I dont think you played the hand badly at all. Much much deeper stacks would be interesting but even that would take a few big barrels (for me anyway) to even consider folding.
 
KKillerss

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Im far from a great player, so not giving advice, just as I probably would have played. X/r is suspicious but as 300 said he is not folding, and you were not slow playing the set, Id have shoved as the pot was already almost your stack size.
Yeah V coud have Js, but might have had AA,Kk,QQ, 66, 67, even AJ.
Wouldnt be afraid of playing the same way again, coolers will happen from time to time
 
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Sidetracked

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Set over set is very unfortunate in both cash games and tournaments. When it happens, and you're on the losing end, it doesn't mean you made a mistake. It just means the hand was the coolest of coolers.

I would continue to call with 77 preflop for that price all day if given the opportunity.
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
We are certainly deep enough to go for a setmine, and 77 is not the worst pocket pair. Maybe we can consider folding 22-44, if we think, the opponents are not making many mistakes post, but 77 even has some showdown value without hitting a set, so while we are mainly setmining, its not our only way to win the pot. Folding here would be to tight, but at the same time 3-betting would not accomplish a lot, so calling is perfect.

Flop
Certainly betting when checked to, and when we get raised, the only consideration is, if we just call and take a turn, or if we stack it off now. If you think, SB is likely to overcall with just top pair, then I like to just call, but it would not be a mistake sticking it in now.

Turn
98 got there, which is a bit unfortunate, but still an easy call getting better than 3:1.

Results
Dont authomatically assume, you did anything wrong, just because you lost a hand. Set over set is an unfortunate but rare outcome, and its called a cooler for a reason.
 
ADRI7HO

ADRI7HO

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I wouldn't have thrown it away in any way.
However, on the flop (because $ 1 tournament), I would have gone all in for an opponent's check-raise to push at least the next one player (who was probably in the draw) out of the hand.
In a $ 1 tournament, the check-raise guy can be AJ, KJ or even 6.7.On the flop, basically the only hand that beats our hand is the J, J set.
He is now beaten, but most of the time the opponent will show a weaker hand.
Hereafter, good luck bro.:five: :)
 
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fundiver199

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Unfortunately that was a huge chance that opp hit it after the re-raise, it made sense only.

Just want to comment on this sentense as well. Yes I agree, that when the preflop raiser goes for a check-raise on the flop, that does look very strong, and on this particular board I would not put a lot of draws in his range. There is 98, as I already talked about, but is that even opened from EP? If it is, its probably only 98s, so at most we are talking about 4 combos of draws in his range, and I dont think, they are always played like this.

I think, this is almost always a strong made hand. But "strong made hand" dont mean top set specifically. For starters we have middle set, so he could also have bottom set, and bottom set is certainly at least as likely to take this line as top set. In fact the sneaky check-raise makes more sense with bottom set, because with bottom set its much easier for Hero to have top pair, which will usually bet when checked to, and then also call a check-raise.

When he takes this line with top set specifically, what is he actually ever getting paid by other than exactly a worse set or the case J? And his opponents just wont have those hands very often. So while its obviously not an overplay by him, its probably not the greatest line either, and he just got lucky to run into the perfect cooler setup, where he was going to get Heros stack, regardless of which line he took.

And then there are overpairs or TPTK type hands. This is a 1 dollar tournament, so can we really say, that the opponent would never take a line like this with lets just say aces or kings? Which again would almost make more sense than top set, because those hands dont block top pair either.

My point is, that while its certainly a strong line from the opponent, there is no way, shape or from, where we can put him on only the single hand, that beat us. His range is wider than that, and while I would strongly consider folding a hand like KJ to this line, folding a set - even bottom set - would be a mistake in the long run.
 
BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch

BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch

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I saw this a few days ago and worked on it over the weekend since I was a grumpy cat from the bad beats I took and just playing too much.

So what I came up was this was a preflop determination. Forget about the flop and forget about the outcome. First thing, I would ask myself is what type of player is UTG, do they actually know starting hands and what position to raise them in? If that's the case then lets play the range game!!

What are playable hands for UTG? What are the hands? Big pocket pairs down to 10s, maybe 9s, AKs-AJs, you want to throw in ATs? eh and KQs, and AKo-KQo. That's UTG. You want to modify it, play around it, expand it, be my guest, but that's what I learned awhile ago and what folks I used to play with considered raising with UTG. Is that what I play, not exactly but I'm just putting it out there.
Now lets think about if they have those hands. You're wrecked if you have a middle pair going against a UTG pair. Lets go to the wonderful odds calculator at CardsChat and plug in the cards. You're a roughly a 80%/20% underdog against over pairs and with one of those over pair drawing hands like AJ or KQ you're a 55/45% favorite if you call.

So either way that's not the best situation to be in. So you're putting yourself in a situation where you're looking for a 2 outer that WON'T come like 90% of the time to start the hand (what is it 1:8 to catch a set? I've forgotten) and you still have folks to act after you enter that hand. You want to say let's go fishing for the set anyway or hopefully big cards don't hit the flop so you can guess that your middle pair is still best, I'll say ok but you've got not one opponent but 2 already in the pot with more to respond.

This is a big point. I just got through Preflop in the "30 days to Becoming a Better Poker Player" and I'm sure Katie goes over a pocket pair and tells folks that you have to know what your response is going to before you even call or act with that hand like a rehearsal and the next step after that I believe is going to be what are you going to do on the flop. I can tell you that 99.9% of folks are going with a set!!! lol

So before you even enter that pot you have to realize you're going all in if you hit !!! And if you're sitting there thinking if I can get to 27th then my bankroll will go up like some crazy percentage then you better be prepared to go all in and hope your hand holds.

They check the flop, you bet half pot, they check raise you 3x+ and that's a big warning sign. So let's go back to that range. Its AA, KK, QQ or JJ maybe AJs because all of the other hands miss the boards and with the J on the board that rules out the lesser pairs and just doesn't add up to the betting story unless they're a aggressive player so 5 hands left and you're got them crushed 80/20% of the time and the other 20% against that JJ hand, you're toast. And the only way I see a donk play is because they have you covered.

The other thing is if they check raise you 3x like that and you still call then that's a BIG Warning sign either you don't have a clue what you're doing or you've got a set and they still don't slow down. You can't try and bluff that pot unless the original bettor is a aggressive donk, they have something and its not AK or some drawing hand. So your play tells them exactly what you have and a call from middle position with just a min raise with a pair makes total sense and that board has a board for a set so it makes sense. SO THEY KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE if they're paying attention.

But either way once you go the flop, I don't see anyone telling you to fold that hand. Its going to be an over pair or a donk play where they're trying for some low percentage straight or something. So you're the favorite and someone will tell you if you run that hand 1 trillion times over and over you're going to be profitable, so go with it.

The only thing that might irritate you if that you left so much money on the table giving up your what 50BBs? and I'll guess that was a final table standing at that time or close to it. So if that payout would have really bumped up your bankroll then that might have been another reason to play more cautiously. Yeah and I can see the "if you're not playing for 1st then you're playing all wrong" stuff and I get it but folks gotta go by what works for them and not blindly follow a mantra. I don't know this person's situation or their bankroll but if a 18th place bumps up their bankroll big time then go for the stupid 18th place!! I'm not advocating playing scared but with antes this large, you can pick spots to steal especially if the table is tight and never risk your life.

So, think about playing middle pairs, rehearing your hands before you even enter and think about the outcome and I'm not talking about "I hit the set im good to go", no, think about your position in the tourn and what you're risking. Lets say you hit the set but the flop comes 2 suited cards and the original bettor shoves on you with that draw, are you comfortable leaving if they hit it? You should know the answer before you even click the call button is my point.

Other stuff would be is it better to risk your tourn life or will the table allow you to take the blinds down without risking your tourn life HERE and THERE. If you fold preflop and the board shows you could have hit the set then would that tilt you? Something else to think about. But again, the only way out of this hand I see was with your preflop play, there's no way out once you hit the flop, perhaps with the check raise? Most folks aren't going to fold that hand on that flop and with good reason though.
 
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Tigroslav

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50bb deep 6-handed set mining with small to mid PP in this spot is marginal and will largely depend on stats you have on the players.
If the initial raiser is tight you should just fold your sevens preflop.
If hes kinda loose then it depends on the flat callers stats and unless hes also fishing inclined
get out of the pot.
 
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