$0.55 NLHE MTT Bounty: Could I have played another way?

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fundiver199

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Preflop
Standard open although KQo from UTG+1 is actually so marginal, it would not be a big deal to fold, if for instance its near the bubble, or you are busy with other tables.

Flop
When you bet this small, you are kind of begging to get raised, which create an awkward spot. Either check or bet the same size, you would use, if you had a strong hand like top pair.

Turn
I think, you could just check-jam now. You should have the best hand most of the time, and you dont want to see a J, T or diamond on the river. Check-call is also ok though, especially if you think, he has a lot of bluffs in his range.

River
I dont see much point in this donk shove. If he has a worse made hand, which is good enough to call, then he would also have called on the turn. If on the other hand he has air, then he will just fold. So as played check again and hope, he hang himself.

Results
Pretty sick cooler. The turn card put you in the coffin, and the river card was the last nail.
 
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300HPGOD

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Preflop
Standard open although KQo from UTG+1 is actually so marginal, it would not be a big deal to fold, if for instance its near the bubble, or you are busy with other tables.

Flop
When you bet this small, you are kind of begging to get raised, which create an awkward spot. Either check or bet the same size, you would use, if you had a strong hand like top pair.

Turn
I think, you could just check-jam now. You should have the best hand most of the time, and you dont want to see a J, T or diamond on the river. Check-call is also ok though, especially if you think, he has a lot of bluffs in his range.

River
I dont see much point in this donk shove. If he has a worse made hand, which is good enough to call, then he would also have called on the turn. If on the other hand he has air, then he will just fold. So as played check again and hope, he hang himself.

Results
Pretty sick cooler. The turn card put you in the coffin, and the river card was the last nail.

This sums it up pretty well. I have a slight disagreement on the river as I would shove there with my thought being that villain rarely has air with the action on the flop and turn. I think there is a possibility I am going against an A9, AK or some Ax hand that would or consider checking back the river with the paired board here. I know I would be shoving over any bet on the river made by villain so the question would be would they bluff 3 streets if they had air (I would think not), would they bet a A10 type hand (I doubt it but would they call my jam... thats debatable but worth the try I think) and big question is what do they do with A9 and AK? Thats probably villain dependent but I like the donk shove because it also may look bluffy to our opponent. They might think we are just bluffing a scare card here. Again, very good post and the point about the flop bet always seems to get lost with many players.
 
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fundiver199

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Looking at it again I also dont hate the river line, so maybe the real debate is, if Hero should have check-jammed the turn. Its kind of close, since Hero dont exactly have the nuts on the turn. But at the same time I dont see Hero getting away on a blank river. So mostly the check-call just allows Villain to get there for cheap, if he has a pair+gutshot type hand, which should be a decent part of his range.

Anyway I guess the main question of OP is, if he could have avoided going broke, and the answer is pretty much no. Even 3-ways we usually cant just check-fold a strong second pair on the flop, and when someone have a better boat than ours, we go broke. They also go broke, when they have a worse boat than ours, so in the long run its just a wash.
 
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moshie

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I think after you get raised on the flop you could have released. You raised pre flop under the gun got called cold right behind, after the flop he has to have a decent ace
minimum to raise you cold ,betting into the field. How much equity did you think against his hand on the flop? at best you had 5 outs, If he flopped Aces up or better
your crushed, down to 2 outs unless you pick up a straight draw on the turn.
Your choice to call on the flop is what got you into a bad spot.
 
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fundiver199

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I think after you get raised on the flop you could have released.

If Hero had bet a normal size and got raised then sure. But Hero bet 1BB and got raised to 3BB. Heros bet was mathematically almost meaningless, and therefore the raise also does not mean much. Its almost like, if Hero had checked, and Villain then bet. Hero is getting an amazingly good price putting in 1.200 to win 8.310, so even a 5-out draw is getting more than enough odds to call. Plus its simply not true, that Villain "always" has an ace. He will have a worse hand at least now and then, and you just cant fold a hand with showdown value, when you get such great odds, and its still only on the flop. This is the issue with showing results. It makes it difficult to not get results oriented :)
 
Jon Poker

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I love the open sizing and so on preflop - min raise off of 50bb or less is pretty optimal.

The first big mistake is cbetting middle pair OOP vs two villans. BAD idea - then when we get raised on this texture there is a big chance we are behind in this hand - when this happens - we just need to fold. Our villan is likely never raising us with less than the A and we need serious help to improve our hand. Its a common mistake - too many players over cbet flops and then over all marginal hands when they get raised. Best line here would be to check and call one bet with 2nd pair and see if our hand picks up equity on the turn - we can reevaluate on this street.

As played we spike one of the best cards for us on the turn - i like the check call for sure - the river is gin for us and I love the lead here. JTs is calling, AT is probably calling, QT is calling, QJ - etc - we lose to AQ, AA and KK - and since we did not get 3bet preflop - its pretty unlikely villan has these hands. Unfortunately for us they do this time - its just a cooler -- NO WAY on gods green earth should you be folding a full house here.

So in conclusion - yes you could play this different - dont be a fish and over value middle pr out of position vs multiple opponents - then when you do and get raised - recognize your probably way behind - it was a mistake to cbet and you should just fold and quit lighting chips on fire!

After the check/call on the flop - the hand plays out as it does anyhow - and we go broke regardless. Nothing else can be done.
 
thehangdude

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This is why I don't raise KQ from UTG+1. On aggressive tables like 55 cent MTT bounties, I normally limp the top and bottom of my range (AA, KK, KQ, Axs). Then if I get raised, I know where I am. If it gets limped around, I don't have to worry about AK or AQ taking my stack.

The problem with early position KQ is you win a small pot or lose a large one.
 
Jon Poker

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This is why I don't raise KQ from UTG+1. On aggressive tables like 55 cent MTT bounties, I normally limp the top and bottom of my range (AA, KK, KQ, Axs). Then if I get raised, I know where I am. If it gets limped around, I don't have to worry about AK or AQ taking my stack.

The problem with early position KQ is you win a small pot or lose a large one.


Why are you making life difficult?

KQo is a standard open UTG in any game and open limping the top of your range is selling yourself very short on value. How strong does it look when you limp-3bet UTG with your AA or KK? It looks exactly like what it is...vs raising AA utg - getting 3bet - and then flatting to keep villans in.

Anyhow KQ is SUPER easy to play UTG - open KQo - and fold to 3bets - its KQo -who cares if you fold?? No big deal, chalk it up and move on! KQs we can raise-call alot of 3bets - then we just have to play post flop accordingly. Realize your actual hand strength - and don't overvalue marginal made hands. Its that simple!

As far as raising and being called - don't cbet OOP on dynamic (wet, connected) boards. Cbet dry boards when you have range/nut advantage and of course cbet your made top pairs for value. Easy peasy. Don't make it difficult.
 
thehangdude

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Why are you making life difficult?

KQo is a standard open UTG in any game and open limping the top of your range is selling yourself very short on value. How strong does it look when you limp-3bet UTG with your AA or KK? It looks exactly like what it is...vs raising AA utg - getting 3bet - and then flatting to keep villans in.
KQo is borderline opening range from UTG+1 at full ring. Overall, it is not profitable from EP.

Did you miss when I said limping top and bottom of my range on aggressive tables? I am going to limp AA and KK expecting to shove them when someone raises, and I expect a call. I'll only do this when one or more players are raising nearly every hand. On these tables you can limp the low end of your range so you only call 3-4BB, not a reraise for 7-9BB.

Of course this play wouldn't work on a $25 buy in, but on micro stakes, it works if the situation is right.
 
marvinsytan

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PH
im shoving on the turn to make sure to get all the money in as we are out of position and there are a lot of river cards that might scare away our villain
 
Jon Poker

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KQo is borderline opening range from UTG+1 at full ring. Overall, it is not profitable from EP.

Did you miss when I said limping top and bottom of my range on aggressive tables? I am going to limp AA and KK expecting to shove them when someone raises, and I expect a call. I'll only do this when one or more players are raising nearly every hand. On these tables you can limp the low end of your range so you only call 3-4BB, not a reraise for 7-9BB.

Of course this play wouldn't work on a $25 buy in, but on micro stakes, it works if the situation is right.


KQo is on every GTO range RFI chart ever made and is entirely profitable from UTG - it is however one of the most overplayed hands in the game and because most players post flop game isn't at its best they find themselves in awkward and losing spots with it. Example one being that you open it and call a 3bet with it OOP. Even if you have the best hand it's going to be a situation where we see a flop, miss most of the time and end up check-folding and we committed the extra chips for no reason with a marginal starting hand.

KQ has blockers to the of top range nut hand combos, 64 of them to be exact - AK, AQ, QQs, and AAs - and so its more likely for us to be against AJ and AT for unpaired hands that are still ahead of us - and we do pretty well agaisnt them.

I get what you are advocating for with your limo strategy - and surely you could take this exploitative approach when the table is hyper aggressive - but overall, it IS a losing strategy - or at the very least, one that severely stumps our win rate. Toss the bottom of your range out from EP, open the strongest portions of your range - ESPECIALLY vs overly agro villans, and value bet the hell out of your made hands -- then print money. Don't lay in the weeds and try to get them to do it for you. Even fish figure things out once in a while.
 
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fundiver199

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Even though KQo is near the bottom of a standard opening range from UTG+1, this was mostly just a bad spot for Hero. UTG+2 had the only hand, which dominate KQo, and which is often played as a call. And then the runout was pretty much as bad, as it could possibly get constantly improving Heros hand but also improving Villains hand to something even better.
 
Jon Poker

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Even though KQo is near the bottom of a standard opening range from UTG+1, this was mostly just a bad spot for Hero. UTG+2 had the only hand, which dominate KQo, and which is often played as a call. And then the runout was pretty much as bad, as it could possibly get constantly improving Heros hand but also improving Villains hand to something even better.

KQo is the bottom of my Kx range from UTG while K9s+ makes up all of my other Kx from that seat. That is me personally, different stroke for different folks.

As played we missed two chances to not go broke here - first, our villan didn't not 3b AQ preflop which we should fold to - and second, we didn't fold to the flop raise!! This texture isn't all that wet - the flop raise screams strength and we should easily fold our 2nd pair. Its our fault for cbetting a marginal made hand OOP.

Played properly (check-calling 2nd pair) we are still going to get coolered and it is what it is. Nothing else can really be said about this one.
 
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fundiver199

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the flop raise screams strength and we should easily fold our 2nd pair.

The flop raise does not scream strenght, when Hero made a meaningless "fish" bet of 1BB into a huge multiway pot. Also Hero is getting such a great price, that he can even play his hand as a draw. Unless Villain has exactly AQ or a set, hero has at least 5 outs. And Hero is ahead of any bluff.

If Hero had checked, the guy behind bet at least half pot, and the other guy called, THEN we can talk about dumping second pair on the flop, because then probably at least one of them has an ace. But this flop action is basically meaningless, because Hero made that fish bet, and the third player got out of the way.
 
Jon Poker

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The flop raise does not scream strenght, when Hero made a meaningless "fish" bet of 1BB into a huge multiway pot. Also Hero is getting such a great price, that he can even play his hand as a draw. Unless Villain has exactly AQ or a set, hero has at least 5 outs. And Hero is ahead of any bluff.

If Hero had checked, the guy behind bet at least half pot, and the other guy called, THEN we can talk about dumping second pair on the flop, because then probably at least one of them has an ace. But this flop action is basically meaningless, because Hero made that fish bet, and the third player got out of the way.

I think even fishy bets tend to get called rather than raised by marginal hands. In this spot with say KJs I would just elect to call the 600 bet in position because raising the flop should only get me called by better hands on this particular texture - makes it hard for any other Kx to continue, underpairs that don't connect are folding, gutshots like QT, QJ and JT are folding out to the raise and all strong utg Ax hands are never folding the flop - so in short raising flop would create a spot where we LIKELY get called by better and fold out worse. I think we can easily get away from the flop raise here.

I also agree if we did decide to check middle pr and villan bets and the blind calls - we can then also consider folding with the likely possibility of at least one villan having the ace. We lose the minimum and don't put ourselves in any awkward spots.

When we get down to it - I'm sticking to my guns that the cbet OOP with middle pair is a mistake - the cbet sizing is also a relative mistake - and then calling the flop raise after the raise is also a mistake. The board is just so dry - its hard for our 2nd pair to be good here and drawing to 5 outs leaves us relatively slim. Its hard to consider our hand a "draw" when we are only drawing with one card.

If we simply play the hand as a draw rather than the actual holding itself and start to represent any broadway cards on the turn as if we connected with a gutshot or two pair+ the question then becomes - if we decide to turn our hand into a bluff, can we get better to fold? Will our opponent fold an A? Will they fold 2 pair with an A? Most micro villans just simply over value top pair - lastly, i do not like turning 2nd pair with a good kicker into a bluff since it has good showdown value. This is the last reply lol I promise.
 
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It's a very unfortunate run out for you, but that is one of the dangers of playing dominated hands.
 
Jon Poker

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It's a very unfortunate run out for you, but that is one of the dangers of playing dominated hands.


We can never know if we are dominated are not since KQ holds relative blockers to the unpaired nut hands above it.

The point here I've said 20x and I will say it again...just FOLD to the flop raise -- the texture is too dry for villan to be bluffing draws so they are likely raising for value and not a bluff. Our life is much easier when we recognize this spot and fold. Being dominated doesn't matter here if the flop were to come QQX - we are likely going broke 100% of the time because stronger hands SHOULD have raised us preflop - thus is the cooler and is nothing we can learn from it.

Biggest mistakes here are the flop bet and then calling the raise OOP with middle pair. Make the correct fold and avoid this spot. Check call the flop - the cooler happens anyways and there's nothing we can learn from it.
 
Viparida

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Even though KQo is near the bottom of a standard opening range from UTG+1, this was mostly just a bad spot for Hero. UTG+2 had the only hand, which dominate KQo, and which is often played as a call. And then the runout was pretty much as bad, as it could possibly get constantly improving Heros hand but also improving Villains hand to something even better.


To sum what everyone said up until now. It was a position problem, in lower tiers this move would not be that bad cause the guy with AQ probably would 3-bet you, but that`s not what usually happens in this level of buy-ins.
 
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eetenor

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Thank U 4 Posting

Are you aware of the free equity programs that let you calculate your equity vs your villain's range on this flop? Using one will help you make more math based decisions in these spots.

If you input AX one pair hands into the cardschat calculator you will notice that even if the V just has A2 you only have 19% equity A9 and your equity drops to 13.84%. Stack protection in tournaments is a must so folding this flop after being raised is something that we can do with a high frequency. Only if we had a very specific read of loose aggressive spew tard or advanced skilled V that thinks you over fold, would we be calling this raise. As it is likely that your V player pool play face up most of the time as was done here we can over fold based on their actions.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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