PT3 vs HEM?

[DetroitJimmy]

They just know that you have had a free trial before. Can't remember if you have to register or if it just registers to your PC. The HUDs run while you are playing. Here is an example

This looks like Poker Edge software. This is not allowed at FT so I wouldn't post it on an open forum.

I like HEM both because of the looks and it don't bog down my old ass computer like PT3. Other than that pretty much same program IMO.

 

[DetroitJimmy]

What stops someone from doing free trials over and over? Do you have to put address and credit card info on file before getting a free trial? Do huds run while you have tilt and stars open?

You can use free trial of PT3 for 60 days(I think) and you don't need credit card info. After trial is up you won't be able to access your info and program does not work unless you pay and register it.

Same with HEM except trial is only 2 weeks(I think). HEM is a little cheaper also.

 

[dmorris68]

They have done a TON of work since you left. 90% of their new development in the last year has been on tournament related functionality.

Not surprised, I figured they had.

Everything from simple stuff like displaying stacks in BB or M on your HUD...

HEM has had this for quite awhile now. Over a year for BB and probably close to a year for M.

to extensive tagging of tournaments so you can analyze results by all sorts of tournament types. Turbos vs regular, rebuy tournies, satelites, KO's etc. (Or whatever combo of criteria you want to use, it's user definable)

I don't play a ton of MTTs anymore but you're probably right here -- I don't recall that degree of tourney type filtering when I last tried it.

Auto-imports stars audit reports now as well so you can get all your R/A info auto-loaded as well as get old tourney buyin/winnings info if you have the tournies in the DB but never brought in the tourny summaries. (This can save you a TON of work if you want to get all your $$$-related items for past history.)

I want to say this was either a recent addition, or was announced as an upcoming addition -- it sounds familiar anyway.

Also, runs handgrabbing and HUD for Bodog tournies, which HEM (unless recently changed) does not. HEM only supports Cash.

Yeah, they've been working on the bodog grabber for awhile. It was released a couple versions back with tourney support, but it was so unstable they pulled it and re-released it with Cash only for the moment. They should hopefully have it straightened out before too long.

Support for grabbing bounty prizes on FTP and elsewhere where it is available so you don't have to do it yourself.

I'm pretty sure HEM has been grabbing KO bounties for quite awhile now, unless you're talking about something else. I used to play a lot of KOs and recall my bounties being grabbed, this was like a year ago.

does the hud work on hem on the trial version?

Yes, AFAIK every feature of the base HEM product works in the trial version, it's just time-limited.

 

[dmorris68]

Also, runs handgrabbing and HUD for Bodog tournies, which HEM (unless recently changed) does not. HEM only supports Cash.

Actually, some bad news reported by HEM over the holidays on this subject. Bodog has asked HEM to discontinue development of its internal grabber, and because HEM goes out of its way to comply with site's demands, lest they be banned, they are doing so in this case. They will still import hands from Idleminer's grabber, at least as long as Bodog doesn't do something to thwart Idleminer.

And Bodog also has now expressed that HoldemManager should STOP development on a internal handgrabber. (but Idleminer didn't stop, so using their handgrabber you can still fully use HM on Bodog)

I expect PT3 will be asked to do the same, so assuming they comply I guess this particular feature argument will wind up being moot.

 

[LarkMarlow]

One of my New Year's resolutions is to download one of these programs so I have been avidly following this thread.

Here are my questions: which one do you feel is best for someone totally green? Or is that purely individual, based on all kinds of "it depends" factors?

Is there a way to see a side by side comparison somehow?

I'm fairly familiar with PT3 because of TPC's excellent tutorial on the subject--is there a video tutorial for HEM? I've read AbsolutHamm's thorough Holdem Manager Guide but haven't seen how it works visually.

Thanks, as always

 

[dmorris68]

One of my New Year's resolutions is to download one of these programs so I have been avidly following this thread.

Here are my questions: which one do you feel is best for someone totally green? Or is that purely individual, based on all kinds of "it depends" factors?

Well, either has the potential to be overwhelming to a new user who knows nothing of tracking software. That doesn't mean you can't startup using it right away, you just won't be able to use it to its fullest potential until you wrap your head around it all. You'll probably start out with default filters, reports, and HUD configurations until you learn enough to tweak it to your own preference. If you feel you already have a headstart on PT3, then that might be enough to sway you.

In terms of comparison, it's going to be hard to get an objective opinion from any user of one or the other. Only if someone has had very recent experience with both and hasn't really formed an attachment, I guess, but then again they'll likely not have a deep enough knowledge yet about either to give a truly educated assessment either.

As I noted, I used to use PT3 and switched to HEM around the time it was released (or not long after). I just looked up my original purchase email and I bought HEM Pro in August 2008. So I've not used PT3 since then and couldn't give a hands-on comparison that meant anything -- pretty much what I know of PT3 these days is what I read.

I still love HEM and haven't seen anything to make me reconsider PT3 at this point. But like Bonfli and I were discussing, it may offer you some things in specific areas that HEM doesn't, and vice-versa.

Bottom line, both are entirely capable when it comes to tracking stats and doing self-analysis. Either would be a wise investment to any player that plays beyond just recreational level -- any serious player who puts in the time to analyze their game and take advantage of what either product offers, will improve more than enough to pay for the product in a very short amount of time.

HEM has several integrated add-ons that may be valuable to you. In addition to Omaha support, which PT3 also offers, HEM offers LeakBuster and TableFinder for cash players, as well as Hold'em Vision, TableNinja, and SnG Wizard as integrated add-ons. Other than Omaha I'm not sure what else PT3 offers these days.

This isn't to say I'm a blind, rabid HEM fanboy who can find no fault with them. Overall their support is great (much better than PT3 back when I used it), but sometimes their development team frustrates me to no end. I've had more than a few frustrating discussions with them about it (including with Roy, the owner/founder/original developer). That likely has more to do with me being a software developer first (who is obsessive about the subject) and a poker player second, and I get the idea that they are mostly poker players that learned to write code. They can sometimes do some really boneheaded things with their code design that drives me nuts, but their poker logic is very sound and their product overall is still very good.

Is there a way to see a side by side comparison somehow?

Not sure but I'd like to see one too, just to see how PT3 has evolved since I last used it.

I'm fairly familiar with PT3 because of TPC's excellent tutorial on the subject--is there a video tutorial for HEM? I've read AbsolutHamm's thorough Holdem Manager Guide but haven't seen how it works visually.

There are some videos in the HEM Video Library, as well as numerous videos on YouTube and the various training sites. And I think there was an early HEM video here by KC or somebody, don't recall, but it's changed a lot since then.

 

[Shwiggler]

The Apps in HEM like Leak Buster tilt me toward HEM.

 

[LarkMarlow]

There are some videos in the HEM Video Library, as well as numerous videos on YouTube and the various training sites. And I think there was an early HEM video here by KC or somebody, don't recall, but it's changed a lot since then.

d, thank you so, so much for your insightful and thorough response, especially this ^. I checked out the installation vid and plan to look at the others.

Oddly enough, the more technical something is the more I have to feel intuitively good about it. Right now I'm leaning toward HEM for that reason. Hard to explain.

On an Earth plane level, good support is a requirement for me.

Here's another question--are either PT3 or HEM considered to be resource hogs? I can't imagine them being so because that would really narrow their customer base, but thought I'd ask anyway.

 

[dj11]

I've had PT3 since the beginning. It works fine, and I'd bet that none of us are using either HEM or PT3 to anywhere near their capabilities.

Both will do way more than we ask them to.

In which case it really doesn't matter.

 

[Shwiggler]

By the way, I have heard rumor of a new version of PT3 coming out. Anyone else confirm this?

 

[dmorris68]

I wouldn't call either resource hogs, since it would tend to interfere with multi-tabling if they were. The poker clients (especially when multi-tabling) are often going to be more of a hog then HEM/PT3.

At my cash game peak (or valley, depending on when you looked, lol) I was playing 12-16 tables on FT with HEM and HUDs running on each. No problems, but then again I run a beefy PC. I've 3-4 tabled with it on my laptop without issue either, but I also have a somewhat beefy laptop even though it's 3 years old. Still, if it were that much of a hog you'd hear more complaints about it.

Occasionally you'll hear of some players with performance or stability issues caused by mis-configuration, anti-virus software, database corruption, poker room updates, etc. that cause things like CPU spikes and HUD crashes. I expect (and hear) the same of PT3 and considering how these applications are designed to piggy-back on to other applications that aren't designed with smooth integration in mind, it's no surprise. But as a general rule, I don't think you'd have any resource problems unless you were running a very dilapidated PC.

 

[bonflizubi]

By the way, I have heard rumor of a new version of PT3 coming out. Anyone else confirm this?

THey are constantly releasing updated versions. Depending on what version you are on you might b e several revisions behind. YOu should check their site for the current version. (I believe it is 3.09 From mid- December)

 

[bonflizubi]

For Dmorris-

The hardcore MTT players seem quite dissatisfied with HEM and what they want for Tourney-specific items.

http://forums.holdemmanager.com/releases/26537-calling-all-tournament-regs-16.html#post182922

This link is a post from there beta forum in the tourney reg thread.

the text says:

Originally Posted by B-Money
I originally made this thread to open the door so a constructive conversation can take place. If I knew it would turn into this I never would've done it and more than likely the following wouldn't have been developed.
We added BB filtering. Some love it, others say it's worthless.
We added report filtering by buyin, speed, number of players, etc. Some love it, others say it's worthless.

I do what I can to help you guys out but get zero thanks in return. It's disheartening to say the least. Everyone thinks their bug or their feature request is the most important thing in the world. I can sympathize with that on some level, but the constant bashing and comments about our priorities not being focused is extremely unfair.

I take umbrage at this.

The frustrations expressed in the thread are a direct result of an inability by RVG to support tourney players within HM... it's as simple as that. I'm a regular reader of this forum over ALL aspects and even blind Freddie can see that if someone has a cash game problem, there's a good chance it will be built/fixed because the db schema supports cash games. Tourney players are not so supported. Therefore, comments and frustrations from posters should not be taken as a personal affront. However, you are one of the 'front men' for HM and with that comes a requirement for a toughened hide. I'm not telling you anything new so far.

Here's the new bit. The people in the back room at RVG are not listening. How do I know this? Try these:
The original methodology for reading Rush hands was, in hindsight, flawed. However, RVG just wouldn't admit defeat and move on until the user backlash gained biblical proportions and nothing else was getting done because too much manpower was allocated to this element. RVG (not you) lost some serious cred over this.
The Visions people say they can't really help tourney players until the db schema is modified.
The LeakBuster folks say they can't really help tourney players until the db schema is modified.
SnGWiz was brought into the fold but has, for all intents and purposes, died.
And nobody from RVG asked the tourney players where their priorities lay. We told you what we think is needed, some were big ticket items some were not, and we're big enough to work out what we think is a priority list. Instead, RVG brought in some functionality that fits within the current db schema! The same schema that doesn't tell tourney players what they need to know.
I won't even mention all the things Roy said he'll do for tourney players and has yet to deliver item 1. Damn, I went and mentioned it anyway.

I'll make a deal with you. I'll send Roy my db and he sends me his. I'll tell him what his VPIP/PFR/AF is for a range of cash games and he tells me what my VPIP/PFR/AF is for a range of tournies.

B-Money, I happen to think you're a nice guy who tries really hard not only to do his job for RVG but also to help the customers. But, it appears to me that no one in support or RVG is prepared to say to us "umm, you ain't getting that". So everyone who has any sort of a request or ax to grind gets a non-negative response from you guys and are therefore encouraged to whine until something gets done. Do I fit that category? For God's sake, tell the marketing guys to go screw themselves and be up front with your customers.

And you can start by being up front with me. By the end of this year, 2010, will the HM db be able to differentiate the majority of tourney types. Yes or no?

 

[dmorris68]

^^^ I'm aware of that thread, and have followed it for awhile. BTW you might want to quote it properly or highlight it, because there for a minute I thought you were stating that last part, and it looked awfully familiar, lol.

That thread was started by support, requesting input from tourney players on improving HEM support for tourneys. The primary gripe from that poster is that he wants to maintain Hero stats for an entire tournament, across table changes, which HEM doesn't support. He also wants report filters that can separate out the different tourney types, as you mentioned earlier. PT3 apparently excels there, but that's mostly it. If you look at this exchange between the same poster and another earlier in that same thread:

Originally Posted by cath555
I also have PT3, currently uninstalled. Have been playing around with both for a while. Once 1) they really implement the effective stack filter in the HUD, 2) the prog can recognize turbo and non-turbo, and rebuy/freezeout, and 3) I can add my custom stats to the HUD I will never look back. (I switched from PT3.) But of course I keep an eye on the PT3 guys, I am curious.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but in most things HEM and PT3 are pretty close. I'm a tourney player so I don't need esoteric stats like 5bet_raise_on_Thursdays_sometimes_called, but I do need a HUD that doesn't loose Hero stats just because he/she changes table. The other thing I need is analysis of my play and the reports/filtering system in PT3 is years ahead of HEM.

So even he is saying they're very close, and this by far is not the only former PT3 users saying they'd like to never look back at PT3. That should tell you something, although I'm sure the PT3 forums have their share of former HEM players.

As I've said, I'm no HEM fanboy and make no excuses for whatever their shortcomings may be. I just don't personally have any shortcomings with them, and based on the volume and types of games I play, I prefer HEM based on my prior experience with PT3. Nothing I've seen from PT3 lately would change that, but I may install an update if I can find my license key and give it another go just to see. I've repeatedly stated that either product will serve the vast majority of poker players equally well. Where one is weaker, it usually makes up by being stronger in other areas, but they're ultimately pretty close.

I don't know the numbers or if they're even possible to gather, but I think that some time ago HEM surpassed PT3 in market share. I know at the training sites I'm a member of, HEM is used at probably a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio over PT3, and that includes among tournament specialists, so it's not like HEM has no part of the MTT market.

So while PT3 probably ways a little more in favor of tourney players, and HEM weighs heavier towards cash players, the reality is that both are very close in functionality, and either will be an adequate choice. It's largely just a preference thing. I liked HEM better than PT3 from the first time I tried it. Others feel the opposite. Sometimes it's not even about specific functionality, but just a subjective look & feel type thing. I'm not trying to convince anyone that HEM is better than PT3, only pointing out that I like it better for what I play.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

FYP(oll)

[ ] cake
[ ] bastard
[x] FPDB

 

[bonflizubi]

dmorris- yeah- poor quoting by me, nonoe of that is mine below the *this is the text of it section*

HEM has a much prettier/ more current looking interface. I think that skews a lot of people towards it because it looks more familiar to them, more like current win7/ iphone looking graphics.

I never made any claim as to which had more market share- I wouldn't be surprised if HEM had moved past PT3. (Though I find the support forum at PT to be MUCH more active than the one at HEM from browsing both... which makes me wonder if there really are more users of HEM or just fewer questions.....

HEM - In fact they made some great strategic moves with their addon partners. What I do question though is whether it actually gives more functionality to the player or whether people simply like the interface and the fact that the HEM website is much more current-looking, a bit flashier, and has some demo vids. (And of course there certainly are things that it does that PT doesn't yet do. However,

-the PT rush HUD is pretty universally considered better (it just snaps into place immediately, for cash and tournies)

-THe poster in the thread I quoted could get what he wants at PT- it shows your stats for hero for the entire tournament, not just the table. (OF course, I'd like to be able to see my stats for currently table as an option as well, but PT hasn't stuck that in yet.)

-If you want to track your Rush play - say you want to split out rush tournies from other ones, good luck on HEM, PT can.

-There's always an endless list of this stuff on both sides. They both are amazingly complex programs where most people only scratch the slightest surface of what they can do for you ...maybe 10% of the base functionality. A lot of the really cool stuff in both requires a bit deeper amount of expertise in using the program or a willingness to explore them/ use the boards... or heaven forbid doing some customizations of your own.

Unfortunately, there are probably zero people that use both concurrently to the point of really being able to say one beats the other at any given time. (Myself included.. I'll admit to reading the HEM site and seeing what they claim to add, but haven;t used it.

But lastly, if you are one that really likes to track where your best ROI niche is - is it 180 mans? what buyin? turbo vs non-turbo, rebuy or not, 6max or full-ring, KO tournies, rush vs non- rush - etc etc etc in more combinations than you can imagine.... then PT3 wins hands down - that is where a lot of the work went in the last 6 months.

 

[bonflizubi]

I know at the training sites I'm a member of, HEM is used at probably a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio over PT3, and that includes among tournament specialists, so it's not like HEM has no part of the MTT market.

For reasons I'm not sure of other than perhaps those I mentioned in my post above, I believe that noobs are picking up HEM, and the more that pick it up, the more people recommend it and the mre pick it up (or maybe it's just used by more guys making the vids- I don't know)

I think that the *I don't know what to get - I'll get the one that looks flashier * factor is definitely swaying initial use for sure...

 

[straytfrush]

Generally people not trying to be thieves works wonders.... (plus I am sure they log your IP address as well...)

I did this for a little while but it gets to be a pain in the ass. After I think my 3rd try it stopped working and I just bought the damn thing. It's worth the money believe me.

 

[dmorris68]

Regarding the Rush HUD, it works fine for me in HEM so I'm not sure how it could be better in PT3, unless perhaps it shows Hero stats (HEM's Rush HUD doesn't display for the Hero at all, which does annoy me). The whole Rush HUD thing was funny: initially PT3 beat HEM to the punch with the first Rush HUD, but everyone complained that their 1st attempt was broken and useless. Then HEM caught up with a "real" Rush HUD that initially was said to blow PT3's away. Then PT3 fixed theirs and apparently it leapfrogged HEM's, which had some trouble with OCR reliability at first. And on and on. Currently, as I said, I've had no issue whatsoever with Rush HUD in both FR and MTT games -- my only complaint would be lack of a hero HUD (only in Rush). IMO the very nature of Rush makes it harder to keep up with your own stats and tendencies so hero stats are even more important.

One thing to realize is that these products, particularly the HUD features, can be quite sensitive to user PC configurations, HUD configurations, etc. So while looking at the forums it looks like a lot of people can't get a Rush HUD to work, in reality there are many of us who have no trouble with it. I expect you see the same things at PT3: a gaggle of users complaining that feature X isn't working properly at site Y, but support can't reproduce the problem and other users chime in to say theirs works fine. I see that a lot at the HEM forums. Being in my 3rd decade of working in the software development field, I can appreciate that the innumerable variables involved in software deployment environments make it extremely difficult to test/reproduce every scenario.

Some of the other features you mention do make it sound like PT3 has the upper hand, and if they're crucial to you then I can certainly understand the propensity to swing in their direction. However both are in a constant race to out-do each other, and both tend to copy the others' innovations (as tends to happen between competitors), so I don't expect any significant gaps to remain for long, in either direction.

For reasons I'm not sure of other than perhaps those I mentioned in my post above, I believe that noobs are picking up HEM, and the more that pick it up, the more people recommend it and the mre pick it up (or maybe it's just used by more guys making the vids- I don't know)

I think that the *I don't know what to get - I'll get the one that looks flashier * factor is definitely swaying initial use for sure...

I was referring to coaches here, i.e. the ones making the videos, so I was assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that they would have higher demands from tracking software than noobs who were just reacting to the prettier UI. But that's strictly speculation on my part. For instance, at DTB, Hunter Bick prefers PT3 because that's what he started with and knows, but just about every other coach I can think of uses and recommends HEM (and not just the cash coaches). Granted not all coaches are expected to be PC literate and some might actually be making the same noob decisions when it comes to the software, so that observation probably doesn't mean much.

 

[dj11]

If HEM has this;

5bet_raise_on_Thursdays_sometimes_called

I gotta reconsider........