Possible to be competitive without HUD?

[BatOneHat]

No

I don’t use them and don’t like them. I think they ruin the game. I don’t think recreational sites should allow them, at least at the low stakes. I’m competitive, take notes on as many players as possible and study the game. That’s what it should be about. Not who can afford the best software.

 

[fundiver199]

I’m competitive, take notes on as many players as possible and study the game. That’s what it should be about. Not who can afford the best software.

That is a very idealistic attitude, but it is also very far from the reality of poker anno 2020. Software exist, and the way good players "study the game" today is by using the software. And of the available software trackers are actually among the cheapest, you can get your hands on. Even the best program on the market, PT4, is only 79$ for a life time license, if you go for NLH low stakes, which cover the need of most people.

For comparison a bacis subscription to ICMizer is 99$ per year + VAT, and a program like PokerSnowie is the same. And then there are paid training sites, coaches etc. There is just no way around the fact, that people, who are able and willing to invest money in training, will get better at poker than those, who dont. Of course assuming similar talent, intelligence etc.

 

[RicardoInciarte]

I think it depends cause if u had HUDs but you don't really know how to interpretae the your probably worst that without one, but also it is very need it when you're are multitable cause it is just imposible to pay atention to every player on 4 plus tables I play without HUDs I rather to stay aware and looking players even when I'm not in the hand thats why I never play more than 2 or 3 tables

 

[jordanbillie]

Lots of speculation, since you dont even know, which of your opponents are actually using a HUD

You are right, but to me it doesn't matter. While I'm playing, I'm not thinking about whether a certain player is using a HUD. That is why I would consider this a theoretical thread, because I'm not analyzing these thoughts "on the fly." I'm simply pointing out the pitfalls of being HUD reliant, and of HUDing before one is ready to HUD. I HUDed for a while, which then freed me from the HUD. I didn't even realize I was a slave to the HUD until I was freed from the HUD.

Make sense?

 

[thehangdude]

I know that many of the players I face use HUDs (CC freerolls). For that reason, I purposely play two different games in these MTTs. At the early stages, I like to call and limp because it keeps my VPIP higher and PFR and 3bet lower. In the later stages of a game, HUD users will take my PFR and 3bet more seriously. An early tourney 3bet means I have JJ+ or AK. Around the bubble and FT I may 3bet with QTs.

I think HUDs are needed in cash games to make a better profit. In SnGs and MTTs, they are useful but not needed.

 

[jordanbillie]

I know that many of the players I face use HUDs (CC freerolls). For that reason, I purposely play two different games in these MTTs. At the early stages, I like to call and limp because it keeps my VPIP higher and PFR and 3bet lower. In the later stages of a game, HUD users will take my PFR and 3bet more seriously. An early tourney 3bet means I have JJ+ or AK. Around the bubble and FT I may 3bet with QTs.

I think HUDs are needed in cash games to make a better profit. In SnGs and MTTs, they are useful but not needed.

Now that's some level 2 HUDing!

 

[some39thing]

I do well without a HUD

 

[BatOneHat]

I Am

I am idealistic and don’t even get me started on rebuys.

That is a very idealistic attitude, but it is also very far from the reality of poker anno 2020. Software exist, and the way good players "study the game" today is by using the software. And of the available software trackers are actually among the cheapest, you can get your hands on. Even the best program on the market, PT4, is only 79$ for a life time license, if you go for NLH low stakes, which cover the need of most people.

For comparison a bacis subscription to ICMizer is 99$ per year + VAT, and a program like PokerSnowie is the same. And then there are paid training sites, coaches etc. There is just no way around the fact, that people, who are able and willing to invest money in training, will get better at poker than those, who dont. Of course assuming similar talent, intelligence etc.

 

[0luiggi9]

Play without HUD

I'm an idealist and don't even make me start buying back.

I still haven't managed to adapt to the HUD, or maybe I haven't found the best and easiest to read, so I trust the notes I make from the table. (Note: you have to pay attention to what is happening at the table.)

 

[fundiver199]

You are right, but to me it doesn't matter. While I'm playing, I'm not thinking about whether a certain player is using a HUD. That is why I would consider this a theoretical thread, because I'm not analyzing these thoughts "on the fly." I'm simply pointing out the pitfalls of being HUD reliant, and of HUDing before one is ready to HUD. I HUDed for a while, which then freed me from the HUD. I didn't even realize I was a slave to the HUD until I was freed from the HUD.

Make sense?

If you feel, you play better without a HUD, then luckily nobody force you to use one. I dont think, I would play better without a HUD. In fact I am pretty sure, I would play worse. I also dont think, it makes me a worse player, that I can benefit from using a HUD.

To me there is a lot of almost religious feelings is this question, and its a debate, which has been going on forever, much like the debate about "rigged poker sites". Whatever arguments are presented for the opposite, some people will always continue to believe, the sites must all be rigged

The typical argument against HUDs is, that its better to pay attention to, what your opponents are doing. But first of all having a HUD running does not mean, you lose your ability to pay attention to, what is going on around you. You can and should still notice things like for instance bet sizes, which are not being picked up by the HUD. Or understand final table dynamics in an MTT.

And second if you base adjustments to individual opponents on manual observations, then you are almost per definition relying on a very small sample like 20-30 hands, which lead to more danger of overadjusting, that if you have a larger sample stored in your tracker.

Yes maybe someone is "changing gears" and playing different this session, but its probably more likely, they are just running hot or cold over that very small sample. So being 3-bet 2-3 times by the same player is not always a good reason to start "figthing back" with a very light 4-bet.

And its the same problem with note taking. Maybe you take a note like "called down 3 bets with bottom pair", but you dont know, if he did this, because he was on tilt that day. So when you look at that note 4 month later, it might totally mislead you into thinking, you can go for three streets of value with second pair, because "this player is a calling station".

Whereas if you are using a HUD, and you have a large sample, you might see, that the player has pretty normal stats for numbers like went to showdown and won at showdown. And this is probably more important than, what you saw him do in one particular hand 4 month ago.

 

[LitPavel]

The qualifying term here is "if used properly." I believe that the majority of people using HUDs do not know how to use them properly. They let the HUD do the playing for them, turning them into a predictable/exploitable robot. It's an advanced tool that is useless or harmful if the foundations of winning poker are not understood.

I agree with you, I know this by myself I used it only once and successfully lost my bankroll following the prompts)) It may be effective in the long run when you play enough hands.)

 

[fundiver199]

The qualifying term here is "if used properly." I believe that the majority of people using HUDs do not know how to use them properly. They let the HUD do the playing for them, turning them into a predictable/exploitable robot. It's an advanced tool that is useless or harmful if the foundations of winning poker are not understood.

I dont know, what "the majority of people" are doing, but it is true, that a HUD is an advanced tool, and that you need to have a strong foundation to succesfully use it. But denying HUDs for this reason is a bit like saying, that you wont drive a car, because accidents can happen, if people drive without training / license and while drunk.

HUDs are all about adjusting to individual opponents, and to be able to successfully adjust, we always need to know our default strategy, which we would use against an unknown. Its a branch of the whole GTO / exploitative debate, and to play good exploitative poker you need to have at least some understanding of GTO, because this is the point, you are adjusting from.

And for sure there are some pitfalls in HUD-data, which you need to be aware off. For instance if someone is sitting out in a tournament, then your HUD will registrate that as a preflop fold every hand. So even if the HUD end up showing VPIP 2 / PFR 1, this does not mean, they have aces or kings, if they return to the table and play a hand

Another example could be very old hands, if you have played on a site for years, or very short stacked tournament hands. But you can set filters in the HUD to clean up that kind of data, that might be more misleading than usefull.

 

[jordanbillie]

I dont know, what "the majority of people" are doing, but it is true, that a HUD is an advanced tool, and that you need to have a strong foundation to succesfully use it. But denying HUDs for this reason is a bit like saying, that you wont drive a car, because accidents can happen, if people drive without training / license and while drunk.

HUDs are all about adjusting to individual opponents, and to be able to successfully adjust, we always need to know our default strategy, which we would use against an unknown. Its a branch of the whole GTO / exploitative debate, and to play good exploitative poker you need to have at least some understanding of GTO, because this is the point, you are adjusting from.

And for sure there are some pitfalls in HUD-data, which you need to be aware off. For instance if someone is sitting out in a tournament, then your HUD will registrate that as a preflop fold every hand. So even if the HUD end up showing VPIP 2 / PFR 1, this does not mean, they have aces or kings, if they return to the table and play a hand

Another example could be very old hands, if you have played on a site for years, or very short stacked tournament hands. But you can set filters in the HUD to clean up that kind of data, that might be more misleading than usefull.

A HUD is like a fast sports car, not ANY car.

 

[Dailon Arroyo Blandon]

Yes, of course it is possible to be competitive ... the HUD is a tool that allows you to know the statistics of your opponents but does not make decisions ... the decisions are made by yourself ... so success will depend on your skills ... .. and I'll just give you an example ... Lex Valdhuz is a pokerstar pro ... I have seen many streamers of this player ... and I will tell you that he plays at the highest levels and is constantly winning prizes ... and listen to this: "Lex doesn't use HUD"

 

[IntenseHeat]

I think it is very possible to be competitive without a HUD. I'm not saying that HUDs don't have the potential to be incredibly useful. Of course they can collect and store more data than a person could possibly remember or manually record. But I also believe that if a player is focused and paying attention, they can recognize another player's patterns and tendencies without a HUD. Of course keeping track the information you pick up on might require some note taking.

 

[nimburkx]

I guess Huds for weak players pro players after 10 rounds will just put label and you will be assigned to fish)

 

[IntenseHeat]

I wouldn't say HUDs are only for weak players. A weak player probably wouldn't really know how to properly take advantage of all the information a HUD makes available to them. At the same time, I tend to pay close attention at the table. I don't multi-table. I try to minimize distractions when I'm playing. I may not be able to give exact numbers or percentages, but I know when the player in seat 3 is limping into a high number of pots. I know when another player has a tendency open wide and almost always continue after the flop. I'm aware of when a player is playing no fold'em hold'em, or as some might put it, is a calling station. Maybe I can't say exactly how many hands I've played against a particular player. My sample size might simply be a whole lot, because I play against this guy all the time. I might not have exact figures for a player's vpip or pfr rate, but I have a very good idea of whether it's about average, a little high, very high, or low without a HUD, from having fooled around with HUDs in the past. I'm not saying a HUD can't be a useful tool. The question was whether someone can be a successful player without one. I believe that answer is yes.

 

[fundiver199]

I'm not saying a HUD can't be a useful tool. The question was whether someone can be a successful player without one. I believe that answer is yes.

I totally agree, but I also think, its kind of an irrelevant question. A PT4 license cost 79$, which is an insignificant amount for anyone playing for profit, it does not harm your health, and its not illegal to use on the sites, where its working. This mean, the only reason to not use PT4 would be, that you think, it makes you play worse.

 

[tata777rus]

I received a message from pokerstars that Holdem Manager cannot be used, HUD is also there. Otherwise, you will be blocked, well, I don’t use it, I’m afraid that they will.

 

[fundiver199]

I received a message from Pokerstars that Holdem Manager cannot be used, HUD is also there.

This is probably related to the update in Stars third party software policy, which happened last year. Among other things the functionality of HUDs was limited, so you can also not use older versions of PT4, which has not incorporated these limitations. I am a little surpriced, if Holdem Manager has not done the same and made a version, that can legally be used on Stars, since it is still the largest online site, which allow HUDs. So it seems like a very large market for them to miss out on.

 

[tata777rus]

This is probably related to the update in Stars third party software policy, which happened last year. Among other things the functionality of HUDs was limited, so you can also not use older versions of PT4, which has not incorporated these limitations. I am a little surpriced, if Holdem Manager has not done the same and made a version, that can legally be used on Stars, since it is still the largest online site, which allow HUDs. So it seems like a very large market for them to miss out on.

Hey. I really have the previous version of hold'em manager. But, I still will not use it, suddenly it will block poker stars

 

[BigCountryAA]

It's absolutely possible to compete without one (live players do it every day). I play on Global Poker where they are banned. It may be an unpopular opinion but I think online poker would be in a healthier place if all sites would ban huds. I mean...imagine having to take your own notes and not having software do all the heavy lifting for you. You always have the option to play less tables at a higher buy-in.

 

[youri]

Possible yes, taking notes and being aware of whats going on at the table is not that hard really when you get used to it.

 

[sequoia]

Sure it possible, many pro playing without hud, but you need to pay more attention.

 

[byron42]

Just like with anything in life in order to get good at something you need study and practice.

Having and using a HUD does not magically improve your game. It is a tool that if used effectively will aid in study and practice.

Practice as you will be able to effectively play more games at once and play more hands. The more we do something the better we become at it, the less difficult it would seem to us. By effectively I mean you will have all the information from all games that you would have like if you played and concentrated on one game at a time only.

The greatest benefit of a HUD is for review of your own play. Easy to explain the edge a HUD player has over a non HUD player example:
If you play a mtt and play 300 hands how many of those hands can you remember the next day? Most likely 5-10 and you will struggle to remember the cards and situations exactly for even those 5-10 hands.

So the player with the HUD will have all 300 hands with exact actions and can thoroughly review them for areas they can improve. While the player without the HUD might have 10 hands to review from memory.

So to answer your question directly maybe you can be competitive without a HUD. However, how ever good you think you are a HUD will improve your game.

Yes this, so true! It doesn't win for you, but it will give you insight into your own game that will probably make you want to do research into the areas where you lack for sure. Like most sports/games, you have a strength and weakness profile...this will point them out over an extended amount of time.