My question is, how much of an advantage does a person using a HUD have?

Are there winning players that do not use a HUD?

This is just a basic start to a more complex question. If you have any thoughts or experiences please feel free to share.

Thanks

Following. I'm very curious. Need to know what are the best programs and sites for US players to use them on.

I would compare a hud to someone having a notebook in a live tourney. They really only show you information that you can write down. Just easier that it does it for you so you can concentrate on the game.

Do they work... yes.
Are they needed... no

One thought is that some of the stats you should take with a grain of salt unless you have a sample size that makes the stat mean something.

Example: vpip/voluntary put in pot
The higher the % the more likely they are a fish or calling station... all around bad player.

Someone with a vpip of 100% but they only played one hand just means they played in one hand.

The flip side: 100% vpip and 350 hands. Means they say every flop for the 350 hands you saw them play. Which is a bad player

The examples are extreme. i have not seen someone with a vpip at 100% with decent sample size but you get the picture.

Since any tells you normally would get from a live game don't exist online the only info you have is the stats of the players.

Holdem Manager 2 is what I use. ACR is the only US poker site that I am aware of where the hud is useful (the others are all anonymous sites hence the stats are jacked).

HUD made me make really bad decisions so I stopped using them IMO they are not needed.

Originally Posted by Acesinthebig

My question is, how much of an advantage does a person using a HUD have?

Are there winning players that do not use a HUD?

This is just a basic start to a more complex question. If you have any thoughts or experiences please feel free to share.

Thanks

At the moment I have not mastered the hmm, and I always play without it. And I will say that it is successful. Hmm gives you not only information about others, but also about you. I learn to win without him and achieved success. But I think that it is absolutely necessary in the player's instrument.

Originally Posted by playinggameswithu

HUD made me make really bad decisions so I stopped using them IMO they are not needed.

Interesting, do you think you were using it correctly?

Originally Posted by Acesinthebig

Interesting, do you think you were using it correctly?

The person incorrectly applied HM data, as a rule, statistics help. Although I have not mastered it myself well. And I try to use intuition, knowledge of mathematics, the psychology of players' behavior at the table, even at rates, decision-making time, etc.
*I rarely use HM.

HUDs are like cheat sheets, it can help with big decisions.....

Huds can be useful in a lot of situations if you know how to use them correctly.

If you don't know how to read the hud and use it correctly then it's probably just gonna be a distraction and cause you to play even worse.

Before buying a hud you should test it out with a free trial to get used to it and see if you find it useful or just distracting. Multi-tabling is where huds can really come in handy the most in my opinion. If you just like to focus on 1 table and get your own reads on players then a hud might not be for you.

HM will be useful only in specific tournaments and limits, where there are constant same players or in cash games on a certain limit. In freerolls, it is useless.

HUDS are only a usefull tool if you know how to use them. If you have enough of a sample size on someone you can start to exploit there tendencies over the long run. They are only a little useful for playing individual hands as they can be used to help make borderline decisions.

Oh yeah - and they can be useful for analyzing problems in your own game. IE If your own frequencies are out of whack.

If u understand every info the HUD gives you, it definitely improves your game..
If u don't completely understands it, I think it wont give much advantage..

Originally Posted by Nathan Smith

Oh yeah - and they can be useful for analyzing problems in your own game. IE If your own frequencies are out of whack.

Yes I forgot about this aspect.

If you understand the information at your disposal and utilize it properly.

As far as I am concerned using a HUD is cheating, plain and simple. You can sit at a table with someone you have never played with before and instantly load his hand history and get stats on him. It's cheating.

Because of HUDs I only play on Ignition where all players are anonymous. You cannot download and apply someone's stats when you don't know who they are.

I would never play at a site that allows HUDs.

I do not use,once tried to download holdem Manager,honestly I do not understand.And that's where it stopped...

Haven't seen too many HUD's used at the WSOP tables. .So no, I think they are B.S. They may indicate how a player is playing at a given time on a given day but the true winner is the HUD manufacturer.

Originally Posted by playinggameswithu

HUD made me make really bad decisions so I stopped using them IMO they are not needed.

HEHEHE, i took 9 months to give bad information to HUD users :P
For example I am a LAG with 35- 37 VPIP at the beginning of the tournament. i get my chips and depending to the stack I sat out until 8 VPIP.
What does that say about me?
Nothing else, but that I'm pimping your stats to my advantage
Go ahead...

Originally Posted by Smokewood

Because of HUDs I only play on Ignition where all players are anonymous. You cannot download and apply someone's stats when you don't know who they are.

I would never play at a site that allows HUDs.

There is a school of thought that says this is the future of online poker. But the concern is then it would be too easy for the sites to cheat....right?

I would say using a HUD will help you identify and exploit extreme player types. If you can see that someone is an extreme nit or lag you can easily adjust your play to instantly capitalize on this. If you were sitting at a table full of solid reg players, your HUD would be less helpful for making instant adjustments to exploit your opponents and more helpful in rare spots where the villain's betting and folding tendencies in the long term might help you making a decision.


Many pros play without a HUD, many play with one.

@ Smokewood - HUDs are not cheating in the way you describe, they only show you the stats for the hands you have played against other players - not their entire playing history. Though I have come across software which does do the latter, it is banned on most sites.

Originally Posted by Bnad

I would say using a HUD will help you identify and exploit extreme player types. If you can see that someone is an extreme nit or lag you can easily adjust your play to instantly capitalize on this. If you were sitting at a table full of solid reg players, your HUD would be less helpful for making instant adjustments to exploit your opponents and more helpful in rare spots where the villain's betting and folding tendencies in the long term might help you making a decision.


Many pros play without a HUD, many play with one.

I play without HUD, but I think it will come in handy. Better tell me what positions in it I need the basic for tournaments ????????

I consider HUD really useful! When I played multitables constantly, it was easier to find regular players and fish. When I was to make a difficult decision, playing many tables simultaneously, I could rely on the stats I got, and that really helped. Also, HUD provides you with such an amount of information that I, for instance, can not memorise. Anyway, as guys above said, the advantage of using HUD depends on your needs and how you use it.

Originally Posted by romych007

I consider HUD really useful! When I played multitables constantly, it was easier to find regular players and fish. When I was to make a difficult decision, playing many tables simultaneously, I could rely on the stats I got, and that really helped. Also, HUD provides you with such an amount of information that I, for instance, can not memorise. Anyway, as guys above said, it depends on your needs and how you use the HUD.

To me so no one said what positions in it I need for tournaments

A hud is going to be as useful as you make it. If you really understand the numbers and how to use them it will be a great help.

I use HUD to improve my gamestyle. Not really using them while I play poker. I used to, but I lost my focus. So now I'm back full focused without using HUD, only to improve games

The real question is: Does it work if I don't use a HUD? I personally think they are essential tools for online success. I understand that some people dislike them and are against them but online we cannot SEE our opponents. We don't have physical tells we can use to get clues. So we need to track ranges instead. HUDs make this possible. I feel blind without mine.


R

Originally Posted by roddy1977

@ Smokewood - HUDs are not cheating in the way you describe, they only show you the stats for the hands you have played against other players - not their entire playing history. Though I have come across software which does do the latter, it is banned on most sites.

BS - they scan everyone's hand histories and build a database of all players' activities. You can see all the fish and where they are before you even sit down.

It is cheating, plain and simple.

HUD makes me as a robot. I m playing not creative. People around me are just robots... But people and you -- they are not robots. Yes, it s good to understand the main pattern BUT it could make you as a robotic player

as a new be i dont even know what hud stands for?

Originally Posted by Smokewood

BS - they scan everyone's hand histories and build a database of all players' activities. You can see all the fish and where they are before you even sit down.

It is cheating, plain and simple.

No, it isn't 'BS' as you so charmingly put it. Standard HUDs, as used by PT and HEM, only show stats from hands you've played against other players. It simply represents a time saving device - any player could work out the stats that HUDs display from their own hand histories, it would just take ages. Is that cheating? Not in the way you describe. You are confusing HUDs with table scanning software.

Originally Posted by Smokewood

As far as I am concerned using a HUD is cheating, plain and simple. You can sit at a table with someone you have never played with before and instantly load his hand history and get stats on him. It's cheating.

Because of HUDs I only play on Ignition where all players are anonymous. You cannot download and apply someone's stats when you don't know who they are.

I would never play at a site that allows HUDs.

Do you honestly think that? Why would Poker sites allow HUDs if it was cheating. They only ban real time analysis tools that actually tell you what to do during hands. Anything that calculates real time EV is strictly prohibited. HUDs like HM2 and PT4 only tell you ranges of hands that people use for certain behaviours. The players THEMSELVES then have to use their brain to make good decisions. I don't see how that is cheating.

R

Originally Posted by Smokewood

BS - they scan everyone's hand histories and build a database of all players' activities. You can see all the fish and where they are before you even sit down.

It is cheating, plain and simple.

It sounds more like you either didn't know how to use a HUD or couldn't get one set up for some reason. So you're putting them down because you felt that you were at a disadvantage at the tables. You therefore needed to level the playing field for yourself by only playing on anonymous tables. If you took the time to look into HUDs properly you would find some very good games indeed. If hand histories are cheating, does that mean I'm cheating every time I remember that you 3Bet me with {AK KK+}?

Think about it.

R

Originally Posted by Rufun2

as a new be i dont even know what hud stands for?

Heads Up Display (I think!)

Originally Posted by roddy1977

Heads Up Display (I think!)

Correct!

Originally Posted by Ragequit

It sounds more like you either didn't know how to use a HUD or couldn't get one set up for some reason. So you're putting them down because you felt that you were at a disadvantage at the tables. You therefore needed to level the playing field for yourself by only playing on anonymous tables. If you took the time to look into HUDs properly you would find some very good games indeed. If hand histories are cheating, does that mean I'm cheating every time I remember that you 3Bet me with {AK KK+}?

Think about it.

R

Smokewood is objecting to players using software that shows stats based on a player's entire hand history, seemingly failing to grasp that PT4 and HM2 - ie standard HUDs - use stats based only on your own hand histories. Personally I would regard the former as cheating, not the latter.
By confining himself to playing on anonymous player sites he is missing out on one of the best aspects of 'real' poker - playing against players you've played before and the metagame involved. HUDs, combined with note taking, provide an excellent source of reference and a very convenient way of summarising your past experiences against a particular player. The thing he most fears - encountering players with access to stats of all the hands he's ever played - is strictly prohibited on PS, and probably all big name poker sites.

Originally Posted by roddy1977

The thing he most fears - encountering players with access to stats of all the hands he's ever played - is strictly prohibited on PS, and probably all big name poker sites.

I never had access to EVERY hand someone has ever played. Only the ones I have personally been involved in with them. Years ago the system used to allow data mining by players who were not even sat at the table. Obviously that is unacceptable and I'm glad they stopped it. I just completely disagree with the statement from Smokewood that HUDs = Cheating because that simply isn't true. If Pokerstars,888 and ACR thought that HUDs gave anyone an advantage over others then they would already be banned. Rational Group spend billions on digital security every year. It is not in their financial interest to allow players to behave dishonestly.

Most winning players that do not use HUD and only a small part of do not.

Using HUD do not make you much advantage than others,

just help youto know the type of your opponents quickly!

Agreed. I was just a little offended earlier. I use a HUD and I work very hard on my game every day. So to have someone imply HUDs are for cheaters is a little insulting. I am sure that others reading that post may feel similar as a large number of online pros use them.

R

Originally Posted by Ragequit

Agreed. I was just a little offended earlier. I use a HUD and I work very hard on my game every day. So to have someone imply HUDs are for cheaters is a little insulting. I am sure that others reading that post may feel similar as a large number of online pros use them.

R

I'm in complete agreement with you, it's hard not to be offended when someone implies you are cheating, or calls one's opinion 'BS'. There are rather more civilised ways of expressing an alternative opinion!

The slight advantage is what makes it considered cheating because you'll basically know how and when the person is bluffing, gives a range of possibilities which can tell you when to fold or not. If you consider yourself a real player, personally, you won't have a need for it!

HUD provide information most players if on one table only would be able to deduce and remember same information. Many of us multi-table and multi-task when playing online so HUD store this handy information for us that we can use when we need it.

HUD only provide information from hands played it is up to player to use this information to their advantage to aid in decision making. Poker is a game of incomplete information the more information we have the better our decision making decisions should become.

Of course having all the information does not guarantee the right decision will be made. Information is many times limited and misleading e.g if you in a mtt and move to a new table 5 hands will not be enough of a sample size to base a decision on.

Also different players interpret the same information differently. e.g. a raise from player with VPIP: 10 PFR: 5 (most would consider this player tight); some players would fold marginal hands pre flop because it is a raise from a tight player, other players would look to take a flop and try and bluff on later streets because it is a tight player.

Conclusion to answer the question directly:
HUD purpose is to provide information and hands previously played with opponent at your fingertips that can aid you in your decision making. If you view it from this standpoint HUD work.
If you believe a HUD will magically improve your game and having all the information will solve all the problems in game you will be mistaken and HUD will not work for you. Having the information is the easy part the real test is how you use the information.

Hud works if you are a reg and play many tables. Of course we need to have many hands on a guy in order for the HUD to work. You can make math based decision if you have more than 1000 hands on a guy.

Originally Posted by pokersextreme

... you'll basically know how and when the person is bluffing, gives a range of possibilities which can tell you when to fold or not ....

I'm sorry but HUDs cannot read hole cards. If I know that a player flop cbets 65% of the time then I know they have some bluffs in their continuing range. But the same is true if I'm sitting at a live table and I can see they're betting the flop quite a bit. My ability to read that situation isn't provided by the HUD. For another example if I know a player 3Bets me with 8% of their hands then that looks like {88+ AJ+ QJs+ } Approx. There are still 15 different hands with 98 combos for me to think about. The HUD would also show an 8% 3Bet range if that player re-raised me with {22+ ATs+ KQs}. It would again show an 8% range if they were doing it with {66+, 87s-AKs, K3s, Q4s, J5s, T6s}. My point is, the HUD hasn't told me their exact hand or whether they are bluffing or not. I MUST DECIDE THIS. Based on my observations of that player and my Poker skills. The HUD only shows that an 8% chunk of hands is being used for that action. AND that information is OLD. The 3bet range I will be looking at is from the previous time they 3Bet. This means their range is actually slightly wider than what is showing on the HUD. This is because real-time information is not allowed. A HUD is only a notepad which writes down old ranges that would take us too long in-game. A live player with a very good memory is just as dangerous. Should they be banned?


R

HUD has just started to study, I want to apply it when analyzing my mistakes during the game. Successfully playing without him and other helpers, software.
what are your main positions in the HUD for tournaments? statistical data

I agree

Originally Posted by Ragequit

I'm sorry but HUDs cannot read hole cards. If I know that a player flop cbets 65% of the time then I know they have some bluffs in their continuing range. But the same is true if I'm sitting at a live table and I can see they're betting the flop quite a bit. My ability to read that situation isn't provided by the HUD. For another example if I know a player 3Bets me with 8% of their hands then that looks like {88+ AJ+ QJs+ } Approx. There are still 15 different hands with 98 combos for me to think about. The HUD would also show an 8% 3Bet range if that player re-raised me with {22+ ATs+ KQs}. It would again show an 8% range if they were doing it with {66+, 87s-AKs, K3s, Q4s, J5s, T6s}. My point is, the HUD hasn't told me their exact hand or whether they are bluffing or not. I MUST DECIDE THIS. Based on my observations of that player and my Poker skills. The HUD only shows that an 8% chunk of hands is being used for that action. AND that information is OLD. The 3bet range I will be looking at is from the previous time they 3Bet. This means their range is actually slightly wider than what is showing on the HUD. This is because real-time information is not allowed. A HUD is only a notepad which writes down old ranges that would take us too long in-game. A live player with a very good memory is just as dangerous. Should they be banned?


R

"But he cheated!! He knew I had a 20% range!!"

HUD just groups information that you already have (via the hand history files created by the poker client) and shows it in convenient way to you during gameplay. Final decision what to do is still up to you. This is not cheating and in my opinion it is worth to take your time and learn how to use hud properly. It is not a magic formula to drastically improve your game but it is very useful to analyze your own gameplay and take correct decision when in coin flip situations. Especially if you multi table.

Exactly, the images in the picture I uploaded above show 4 examples of a 20% range which I used Flopzilla to illustrate. Now obviously two of these are ridiculous depictions. But they show the core of what I've been saying. Knowing a percentage of hands is one thing. Having the ability to deduce what range of hands are in that percentage is where the skill lies. HUDs are not cheating! (Drops the mic)


R