are they donkey or not

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pokernut75

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In the history of the wsop, can anyone name a single player who won and didn't play like a donkey?
That's easy you say. Doyle Brunson! Might I remind you that he won back to back WSOP tournaments with 10,2? If that's not a donkey hand, I don't know what is. To this day, the 10,2 is called Doyle Brunsons hand!
How about T.J. Cloutier? That's the J,9 of clubs. Forever know as the T.J. hand. He won alot of money over the years playing that less than premium hand. That might be a donkey hand!
Johnny Chan, one of the all time greats. There is no hand named after him. But when he won back to back titles, he still played hands that looked like crap, but kicked ass!
Of course there is Phil Helmouth. No hands named after him. Some could argue that when he won, he never played like a donkey! Maybe, he just acted like a Jackass when he lost!
How about Jamie Gold? Any takers? He seems like a very nice guy, but he plays alot of donkey hands. He just happens to get the best hand to lay down for his rags! I say he plays like a donkey!
Stu Unger? I never saw him play, but everything I read about him says that he was the best poker player of his generation. And the biggest Donkey of all times!
How about Johnny Moss? The old timers say he was a huge donkey. I wouldn't know. I just read that he was one of the best to ever play.
Let's look at some really great young players. Phii Ivey, Daniel Negraneau, Gus Hansen, Carlos Mortenson, Antonio Esfandiari and Patrick Antonious. A noteworthy group of poker players. Have you never seen them play like donkeys? Give me a break. They are master donkeys!
Ok, I can name one great player who doesn't ever play like donkey. Jennifer Harmon. But she has never won the main event either!
I was going to name a male non donkey player too, but the fact is I don't know one. Howard Lederer came very close. I listened to his comments on a T.V. Poker series one time and they were so accurate that I wanted to learn everything in his head. Then I saw him play in a tournament while the series was still on the air and I noticed that not only did he not heed his own advice. He played exactly opposite of what he had just recomended on the other channel. On one channel he was talking about smart, solid, cautious and aggressive poker, and on the other channel he was playing stupid, loose, agressive and weak poker.
Just something to think about. I hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers. In any case, a little preening will put them right back where they belong.

I welcome your comments!
 
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N.D.

N.D.

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Someone in one of the other forums here just won with 7/2 os. They won a bunch off of someone who was holding AA. But the winner got a BB special and had just the right cards for the situation. Any other situation, the worst cards yeah?

So how much is it about the cards, and how much about how they play their cards?

Hansen plays hands regularly that I'd fold, but he seems to know how to play them. If I knew how to play them I'd play them too. I guess that's why he's a professional and I'm just a penny stakes guppy.

Oh well.
 
Wonka22

Wonka22

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Doyle WON with 10 2, but heads up poker has very little to do with what cards you hold......I almost never bet what I have in my hand if I get to heads up.....You play aggressively and hope that you're more aggressive than the other guy. He didn't play like a donkey...Doyle played like a winner.

With that said.....EVERY poker player has made a donk decision.....that is EVERY player who has played more than 10 minutes.....if EVERYONE called with pocket aces or kings, poker would be a boring game for sure.
 
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N.D.

N.D.

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Ooh I just thought of another situation that could make someone look like a complete moron even if they aren't one. Okay, let's say they're just getting started in the perfect bluff. Right position, good table read. They raise, but someone with a real hand smooth calls. Anyway, flop comes and the would-be-bluffer's holding the nuts.

That happens too. And what should they do? Fold? Why? I really don't know the answers.
 
reglardave

reglardave

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I see a basic problem with your definition of a donkey. Sure, Doyle got into a HU raisong w/10-2os. But, as has been noted, heads up poker is about dozens of factors that have nothing to do with the cards you hold preflop. That's not a donkey play, just situational poker. Joe Hachem? Raised with a 7=3os and filled in the straight. Donkey play? Hardly. The donkey play would've come if that flop had come down AA3, and he had contimued to raise and reraise against Danneman's A3. These are examples of representing strength in a HU situation, and poker is full of examples of how well this works.

To be a true donkey is to continue to try and play strongly in a situation where logic and common sense prove you're beaten Exanple, with 3 other players in a pot you get dealt AKh, and limp. The flop comes 4-5-6 clubs, with a Jd on the turn, and the 7c for a river card. You flat call all the way, and puch all in at the river. Now, THAT would be a donkish play.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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In the history of the WSOP, can anyone name a single player who won and didn't play like a donkey?
That's easy you say. Doyle Brunson! Might I remind you that he won back to back WSOP tournaments with 10,2? If that's not a donkey hand, I don't know what is. To this day, the 10,2 is called Doyle Brunsons hand!
How about T.J. Cloutier? That's the J,9 of clubs. Forever know as the T.J. hand. He won alot of money over the years playing that less than premium hand. That might be a donkey hand!
Johnny Chan, one of the all time greats. There is no hand named after him. But when he won back to back titles, he still played hands that looked like crap, but kicked ass!
Of course there is Phil Helmouth. No hands named after him. Some could argue that when he won, he never played like a donkey! Maybe, he just acted like a Jackass when he lost!
How about Jamie Gold? Any takers? He seems like a very nice guy, but he plays alot of donkey hands. He just happens to get the best hand to lay down for his rags! I say he plays like a donkey!
Stu Unger? I never saw him play, but everything I read about him says that he was the best poker player of his generation. And the biggest Donkey of all times!
How about Johnny Moss? The old timers say he was a huge donkey. I wouldn't know. I just read that he was one of the best to ever play.
Let's look at some really great young players. Phil Ivey, Daniel Negraneau, Gus Hansen, Carlos Mortenson, Antonio Esfandiari and Patrick Antonious. A noteworthy group of poker players. Have you never seen them play like donkeys? Give me a break. They are master donkeys!
Ok, I can name one great player who doesn't ever play like donkey. Jennifer Harmon. But she has never won the main event either!
I was going to name a male non donkey player too, but the fact is I don't know one. HowardLederer came very close. I listened to his comments on a T.V. Poker series one time and they were so accurate that I wanted to learn everything in his head. Then I saw him play in a tournament while the series was still on the air and I noticed that not only did he not heed his own advice. He played exactly opposite of what he had just recomended on the other channel. On one channel he was talking about smart, solid, cautious and aggressive poker, and on the other channel he was playing stupid, loose, agressive and weak poker.
Just something to think about. I hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers. In any case, a little preening will put them right back where they belong.

I welcome your comments!

Players dominating with lesser hands in key spots. Yep, must be donkeys.

What's your actual point? That professionals are bad players?

And what's with the railbirds links?
 
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pigpen02

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The problem with this observation is that what you see on TV is not representative of the long trek up to that spot.
 
zachvac

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To be a true donkey is to continue to try and play strongly in a situation where logic and common sense prove you're beaten Exanple, with 3 other players in a pot you get dealt AKh, and limp. The flop comes 4-5-6 clubs, with a Jd on the turn, and the 7c for a river card. You flat call all the way, and puch all in at the river. Now, THAT would be a donkish play.

Yet it's a play I've seen time and time again. Very similar play just the other day. I have QJc and I flop a flush. He calls on flop and turn and the river's another club and he pushes all-in. I consider folding because he kind of played it like he had just the A or K (well, how I thought HE would play it, not how I'd play it lol). I call and he flips over AK, but no clubs. Gotta love it when that happens.
 
D

dcpoker11

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This is true, the only thing this proves is that LUCK is a big part of the game and when you are feeling a hand to go with it. Everyone plays like a donk but if you keep catch the cards you might as well keep playing them.
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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This is true, the only thing this proves is that LUCK is a big part of the game and when you are feeling a hand to go with it. Everyone plays like a donk but if you keep catch the cards you might as well keep playing them.

Um, no. What it proves is that poker is not about "the cards" at all at the highest level.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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This is a dumbass thread. All OP says is, "Look at player x. I've never seen him play, but he's a huge donkey! A donkey! Look at player y. He's a donkey too! I have no evidence, but my rant proves that pro players are donkeys! Just look at Phil Ivey, what a donkey!"
 
blankoblanco

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i saw vanquish raise J2 once, what a donkey
 
lilybo

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i wonder if you asked all those people u mentioned in your post what their definition of what a donk is what there replies would b.
 
dweezel

dweezel

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BTW pocket 9's black is the Hellmuth hand
pocket 9's red is the Gretsky
 
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guy incognito

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this thread is timely as I was watching the WSOP on ESPN last night and was thinking the same thing. If I played like a lot of the pro's in my regular tourneys and sit and go's i would be abused and called a donk, fish etc.

Sure, good play is the basis for it all but the more i watch the top end big money games, the more i think luck of the draw comes into play.

what annoys me most is that big babboon sucking out and carrying on like a pork-chop, when it was pure luck that got him over the line in a heads-up.

the shining light of it all is it gives guys like me hope!
 
Monoxide

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my favorite is KK suited - the questionable hand
 
P

ph_il

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fwiw J2o is called the "vanquish hand"

This hand is a monster.

Im claiming J4s as my hand, though. I had a dream that I was going to win the WSOP in the future and I all had to do was play this hand over and over and over again.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Im claiming J4s as my hand, though. I had a dream that I was going to win the WSOP in the future and I all had to do was play this hand over and over and over again.

We know it as the flat tyre, but I'll start throwing "The Philthy" into my live patter and see if anyone picks up on it :D
 
Chiefer

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i'm pretty sure that if you played against these guys, they would take all of your money and wear your hat.
 
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naruto_miu

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This hand is a monster.

"Im claiming J4s as my hand, though. I had a dream that I was going to win the WSOP in the future and I all had to do was play this hand over and over and over again."

now that' price-less, lol, but as for the whole donkment factor, I mean, look there are those who are great at what they do, and then, there's the rest of us. All those names you just mentioned up there, yes they may play stupid, but you know something, they play at those events and well not trying to be rude and the rest of us can't.... They bought cars, houses, and made there bread and butter on poker, that being said, they must be doing something right, correct?

As Kisame from Naruto would say "Hi" means yes
 
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