Should sites confiscate funds for "unethical play"?

[fundiver199]

This part of ACR TOS , also you can see similar in othr poker rooms , such as PS , 888poker , PartyPoker , GGpoker or the smaller ones , let's not try to compare each other , which is best , which is more fair.

Its a fair point, that there are also other poker sites with similar TOS, which by the way I also wrote in one of my subsequent comments. It is however not true, that ALL poker sites have similar TOS. I play on pokerstars and 888 Poker, and neither of these sites have anything in their TOS about "predatory practices". The TOS on 888 Poker furthermore states, that if they kick you out for abusing the chat function, then they are obliged to pay out your balance.

So right there I think, its completely fair to say, that your funds are way more safe on both PokerStars and 888 Poker than on ACR. I do agree though, that there are other sites, where your funds are just as unsafe, as they are on ACR, and also some, where they are even more unsafe. Based on forum posts I would rather have money sitting on ACR than on for instance JuicyStakes. But thats like saying, I would rather have a finger amputated than the entire arm.

So , better create a thread for ALL poker rooms , and their TOS , and talk about this overuse of power they make in such occassions , about stalling or bumhunting or other practices by poker players that are regarded by poker rooms (and maybe not only) as unethical , and take severe actions against them when they want , case sensitive , meaning on each case judging differently , measering benefits and disadvantages , profits and losses . That would be good.

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No objection to that. Will you be the one starting the thread?

Now firing at ACR only , based on a reddit post , which was deleted by his poster , it seems no good to me.

I dont really see, why it matters, that the reddit post was deleted. This does not mean, the incidence did not take place. As others have speculated, maybe ACR decided to give him back his money on the condition, that he deleted his reddit post and shut up. Also the reddit post was still there, when I made my post, and what happen after that is obviously outside my control

 

[antonis32123]

My opinion fundiver. You can do whatever you want , it's a free world . What I said is what seems to me more logical . For example : You say it's unsafe for anyone to have deposits on ACR . Back it up with many player's incidents (with seize of their cashier money) not just one , refer many reasons as this claim is very crucial .Do not forget that far too many players from USA and all the world , play there , win money , ask for withdrawals , and receive their money . Complaints for bots , colludors , players with advanced programs etc exist , but then again the same applies to the whole poker industry , even for PS (Russian PLO bots cover up). Maybe ACR has more problems than some other 3 or 4 very big poker rooms , but on the other hand , ACR is better than tens , maybe many tens or hundreds of the rest of the poker rooms (don't know exact number ,some come and go ) .

If an OP comes here with evidence and wants help , against ACR , PS , 888poker, party poker, I will try my best to contribute whatever I can , press a rep or talk among us , to search for solutions , cause today it's him , tomorrow it might or will be one of us , the same happens in every community and group of influence/power in the society. Generaligasitions because of this one only incident , which still I have not enough proof it is true and real ,to condemn with anathema and excommunication the ACR ,burn it to the flames , start a crusade against it so as everyone to abolish it once and for all and never deposit again there , it's so ... medieval .

You say he might have found a solution , a middle ground and base to agree with ACR , as long as he removes his post . This ,or maybe he saw that his post found many readers , willingfull to help him , he made his prunk , then he vanished , cause his case is fantastic unreal and he has no clues ,or it's real but he hides some facts , now got afraid of the publicity , I would bet it' s a joke , this is not a way to communicate such a serious problem with the poker community , so as to get some serious help . Cause his funds were seized , according to him , that's deeply serious , I can't believe this is true , only if he was a bot user .I can't believe a poker room would seize funds from a player for stalling ,that's rediculous . It's their company , they can choose their clients , but to seize money for this reason , much too fake story

I wish he had come here inCC , like some others like him in the past , claiming stolen funds , claiming they had been robbed by a poker room , but on the end the truth would be revealed that he was just an idiot , or worse , a scammer , like once if my memory serves me well , when the admin called and contacted the poker room , they told her all , the whole story , it was proved he was a scammer lying

 

[fundiver199]

Cause his funds were seized , according to him , that's deeply serious , I can't believe this is true , only if he was a bot user .I can't believe a poker room would seize funds from a player for stalling ,that's rediculous . It's their company , they can choose their clients , but to seize money for this reason , much too fake story

Apparently you still did not read the TOS of ACR. It is very clearly stated, that they are allowed to seize peoples money for stalling and a multitude of other similar reasons. When someone then reports, that this actually happened to him, even it was in another forum, and even he later deleted his post for whatever reason, then I dont think questioning him or his post is the first thing, that should logically come to mind.

He did after all also share an email from ACR, where they referred to this part of their TOS, and it seem very unlikely to me, that somewhat would make that up just to get attention. In short I dont think, I have been unfair to ACR in any way at all. But I think, the TOS of ACR is very unfair to players, and that people should seriously consider, how much money they keep deposited on the site. Pretty much like what Jonathan Little said in his videos.

 

[illumirunus]

According to this post on another poker forum, ACR just stole 700$ from a player, who reportedly violated their TOS by deliberately delaying action in multitable tournaments AKA "stalling".

ACR Banned Me -- No warning! Stole $700 : poker (reddit.com)

I know, that a post like this might only tell part of the story, but even so I have a huge problem with a poker site prohibiting "unethical play" and then using it as an excuse to steal peoples money. First of all I think, that the worst possible sanction against "unethical play" should never be anything more than closing of peoples accounts with a full refund being made of any money sitting in the account. In this case they could tell the guy, that his slow play annoys their other customers and is against their TOS, and for this reason he is not welcome any more.

This would be ok, since a private company is allowed to refuse a customer for whatever reason, they like. But there is a huge difference between kicking someone out and stealing his money. That kind of sanction should be reserved for people, who clearly cheated for instance by colluding with other players or using illegal software like bots.

And second I do think, that this kind of TOS is pretty ridiculous. Easy technical solutions exist against everything, which ACR deem to be "unethical play":

* Bum hunting can be prevented by introducing randomized seating in cash games
* Rat Holing can be prevented by forcing people to buy in with the same amount of money, they left with
* Stalling can be limited by allocating less time to players to act preflop and/or increase the duration of hand for hand play

I think, its absolutely an obligation for poker sites to implement such simple technical solutions rather than ask players from refraining from "unethical play" and then at their own discretion use this as an excuse to steal peoples money. So until that happen, I will advice people to either not play on ACR or to only keep the absolut minimal amount of money required deposited on the site, even if this mean multible withdrawals and redeposits. Because basically with these terms and conditions, your funds are simply not safe on ACR.

Americas Cardroom

It happened to me too, acr banned my account and stole my remaining funds because I was stalling near the bubble of mtts

 

[illumirunus]

I was the person who posted that news about ACR confiscating money and banning a player over stalling.

I can no longer find the post on reddit, nor can I find the post I made here on Cards Chat.

[EDIT: I was looking in the wrong forum, here is the original post: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/learning-poker-57/using-thinking-time-when-almost-getting-475877/ ]

Aha, now I clicked on YOUR reddit link and I see the post has been deleted by the original poster.

So... my guess here is that the person who posted this news was lying about it, they probably did something that actually *IS* unethical and "illegal" but they may not have mentioned that part.

The other possibility here is that the player didn't do anything else wrong, but was given the option to get his funds back with one condition - that he delete his post since it gives ACR bad publicity. And perhaps he accepted that offer.

Whatever happened here, it sure was odd, that's all I can say. I had just gotten done telling the player who asked the Cards Chat community "Is stalling legal?" that it certainly IS legal, without any question... and Katie Dozier even liked my reply, so she agreed with my take on stalling. This is why we are given time banks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A very odd sequence of events, and as always, we can expect ACR will never offer us any explanation. Poker sites don't do that, they remain secretive and I guess that is their prerogative.

As everyone should realize and understand... and as stated above... we are playing on what are called "gray market" sites that exist outside the legal jursidiction of our home country, and thus, we are at the mercy of whatever the poker site decides to do, and we have almost no remedy whatsoever. Player beware!! Having said all that... I still play almost every day and I never worry about it... but then again, I know I'm doing nothing wrong, nothing unethical or immoral. Heck, I don't even run a HUD, and in today's modern age, that's really kinda dumb, it puts me at a distinct disadvantage... but that's just how I am. I'm an honest person living in a very DIShonest world... but I'm playing for peanuts, playing for pennies, I am certainly not playing poker to make a living. I literally play solely for the love of the game, which makes me an odd bird indeed. I long ago realized the wisdom of Paul's words to Timothy about the love of money being the root of all evil... I am poor and happy, which is a lot better than being rich and miserable.

Exact same thing has happened to me too.. I doubt scummy acr cares about my posts to reimburse my funds

 

[canabero]

funds are not safe anywhere, just don't risk more money than you can afford to lose. if you do, it's your problem, it's your money, your responsibility. end of discussion.

 

[Hemified]

Interesting to know and its good to know any bout any sites. I haven't put money on in a long time I jus been playing a freeroll here and there. Good luck and crush them tables.

 

[wpilson70]

I’m confused.

Seeing as the OP in the original post had “deleted his comments” for this reason or that (and you see BS threads like it on 2 plus 2 every single day…..”I didn’t know that was illegal”…..)…….has this thread morphed into an axe-grind against ACR?

Seems like the original reason for the thread had been removed…..move the goalposts, I suppose…..change the direction to fit the argument…..I guess…..I don’t have money on bush league shit sites like ACR.

Maybe the lesson here (besides the obvious one…..FOLLOW THE TOC of the site) is not to play on third world sites like ACR.

I’ve seen lots of posts on this place about “slow playing” and “ITS MY RIGHT TO PLAY AS SLOW AS I WANT” to believe this ain’t about “slow playing” but an excuse to pile on ACR.

 

[fundiver199]

I think, its totally reasonable to point it out, when the TOS of a poker site is unfair to players. If the poker site feel "attacked", then they can just change the TOS, so it become more reasonable. Its not a human right for a poker site to have TOS, that allow them to randomly steal players funds at their own discretion, and then have nobody point it out in poker forums. For us as players, when a site has unfair TOS like those of ACR, our choise is to:

* Not play there
* Keep as little money deposited as possible
* Read and follow the TOS, even though they are unfair

 

[Pokerpoet2]

Three good reason's why I hate playing Cash games.

* Bum hunting can be prevented by introducing randomized seating in cash games
* Rat Holing can be prevented by forcing people to buy in with the same amount of money, they left with
* Stalling can be limited by allocating less time to players to act preflop and/or increase the duration of hand for hand play

Some would say that these tack-ticks are used to make money and really they are not cheating as such, just a format of play that is available to each player, whether ethical or unethical, but to use BOTs and software to blatantly cheat at the game, then the site has more than enough excuse to confiscate money from a players account.

*Bum hunting has been going on since Poker was created, it is not liked by many players but it happens, and if I see it going on I leave the table to find another game.
*Rat holing is another thing that is frowned upon, in our local cash games, it is not allowed and if a player wants to return, after cashing out, the rule is he must buy-in for what he cashed out with, or he does not play, simple.
*Stalling really does not bother me because in a cash game the Blinds don't increase as in a Tournament, so there is nothing to be gained by it, but a player could have a hard decision to make, and if he takes too long, then TIME! can be called by any player at the table, it is not limited to players involved in the hand.

But they are not cheating, Unethical maybe, Cheating No!

When the fun Stops, STOP!

 

[TheBigFinn]

IMHO, it is bad when "those who know best" of any ilk have power to punish or act in their own interest arbitrarily. This is a problem with society in general. We need look no further than the presidential election in the US to see Big Brother planting their fat finger on the scale. Regardless of the original intentions there are always cases at the margin that appear unfairly decided.

These decisions then cause fear and rumors abound. Personally I have never had a problem with ACR, but agree their rules of conduct appear stricter than required. It is a shame they are required at all, but in the Poker community and the population in general there are those whom tip toeing to the line are part of the game, Do we no rules especially in a artificial Oligopolies?

Legalizing Poker would solve many of these problems as the market would sort them out.

 

[Gusborgs22]

I think that confiscate money is a bad punishment
They could just block his account, not allowing he to play at other tables...
Confiscating money is bad for their reputation. It's an immature decision
Sometime ago i had a problem with PokerStars. I did a deposit and my money just desappear for 5 days (it was suposed to be avaiable in 10 min max). In the 4th day i talked to the support another time (i was really pissed). They said that it wasnt PS fault and they are doing everything is possible to solve my problem. Then i said that i was going to sue the site. Then they blocked my account, not allowing to play any games and said: if you want to play you have to email us saying that you have no intention to sue us. 1 day later my money appeard in the site, i emailed they and my account was free to play. But i could withdraw my money at any time!

 

[Luvepoker]

While I would hope under most circumstances people do get the funds back, I do think there are times a site would be justified in keeping there funds. Collusion and cheating come to mind.

The thing that does bother me is when these type of messages appear is how honest our they? We see these complaints and more about sites and then at times find out there was more to the story or the post just get deleted by them and we never know why. Just look on our forums and we will se complaints all the time from players and if you look you will see these people only make 2 or 3 post and disappear forever. Why? While I cant say everything is perfect in our poker world its sometime hard to take the comments seriously when they post look the site is rigged or there stealing my money. To date I have had no issues with the sites that are around and I can use. Again is this a perfect situation, no but at least I can enjoy a good game of poker.

 

[Tomek416]

Yes I think that people who cheat should have their funds confiscated and should be kicked out from the site.

 

[fundiver199]

While I would hope under most circumstances people do get the funds back, I do think there are times a site would be justified in keeping there funds. Collusion and cheating come to mind.

I used to think the same way, but actually even such cases should rightfully be handed over to the police and then go to court, as it happened recently in a case against a danish pro. Allowing a game operator, who has an obvious interest in keeping peoples money, to act as both police and judge, is pretty questionable to say the least.

Moreover its one thing to confiscate winnings, that were achieved in a dishonest way, but its another thing to confiscate whatever deposit, the player might have made. In theory a player could deposit a million dollar, then cheat himself into a winning of 10$ in a SnG and have his million confiscated.

This is obviously an extreme example, but my point is, money deposited belong to the player, it does not belong to the poker site. Accepting anything else is like saying, that if you go to a bar and start a fight or in other ways break their rules, then the bar should be allowed to keep your 1 million dollar car, that you parked outside. Or your coat, which you left in the wardrope.

The thing that does bother me is when these type of messages appear is how honest our they? We see these complaints and more about sites and then at times find out there was more to the story or the post just get deleted by them and we never know why.

This is true, and if I had known, that the original reddit post had been deleted, I would not have started this thread, or I would have titled it different, as a moderator later did for me. But that being said its still a fact, that the TOS of ACR allow them to confiscate peoples money, if they deem, that "unethical play" took place. So you are kind of saying, that this is ok, as long as they dont actually do it? But if they never actually do it, why does it need to be in the TOS?

 

[fundiver199]

I wish there was a better way they could do this.

Well there is. To not have that kind of TOS. Its really that simple. Now I understand, that american players (except for a few states) dont have many places, where they can play, and of those places, ACR might be one of the least bad ones. If I had no other options, I would probably play there myself but keep as little money as possible sitting on the site.

Regulation would go a long way to solve this. The poker sites, that are licensed in my country, dont have this kind of TOS, and presumably this is because, the regulating body wont allow it. So to legally operate the sites have to adapt and treat their customers in a more fair way, than what unregulated sites like ACR do.

 

[Evan Jarvis]

I wonder if that was one of those players who was intentionally disconnecting to get extra time bank

I know there have been issues with that in satellites and freerolls, and that is probably a violation of the TOS because it's manipulating the software

People are allowed to use their time bank and take time to act each round, that's never been an issue.

I also wonder why the post got deleted by the original person instead of posting a follow up to it...

 

[terryk]

These posts make me appreciate i'm free to play at GREAT sites like Stars and Party,,, :marchmell

 

[Suns of Beaches]

I wonder if that was one of those players who was intentionally disconnecting to get extra time bank

I know there have been issues with that in satellites and freerolls, and that is probably a violation of the TOS because it's manipulating the software

People are allowed to use their time bank and take time to act each round, that's never been an issue.

I also wonder why the post got deleted by the original person instead of posting a follow up to it...

i wonder why a poker experte and ambassador likes a post where someone wrote that "funds are not safe anywhere"

what u wrote in the post i quoted makes sense but if you scroll up there is a member from here who said his bankroll was confiscated for stalling too

 

[Suns of Beaches]

Exact same thing has happened to me too.. I doubt scummy acr cares about my posts to reimburse my funds

can u give us more details? did u also disconnect to stall even more or was it only stalling? would be cool if you could post emails with acr and tell us what really happened so we can give u more credit and act from there. thanks.

 

[fundiver199]

I wonder if that was one of those players who was intentionally disconnecting to get extra time bank

I know there have been issues with that in satellites and freerolls, and that is probably a violation of the TOS because it's manipulating the software

People are allowed to use their time bank and take time to act each round, that's never been an issue.

Thats not, what the TOS of ACR say. The TOS talk about "deliberately slowing down action to gain an unfair advantage". Letting the time bank run down every hand just to fold garbage is certainly to "deliberately slow down action", so this is not allowed on ACR according to the TOS.

Now given the fact, that this Reddit post was deleted, I am pretty sure, the guy got his money back. And most likely ACR have never stolen someones money for stalling or anything similar. But this still leads me back to the question, why ACR then insist on having TOS, that allow them to do it?

The TOS is a contract between the site and the player, and having this kind of TOS is certainly not conducive for building up a trusting customer relationsship. Or for that matter for building up trust in online poker is general. ACR is basically saying "please entrust us with your money. We are then allowed to keep it for any reason, we deem appropriate, but dont worry, because we wont actually do it, unless you do something really bad".

This is particularly ridiculous in light of the controversy between Jonathan Little and ACR, where an ACR sponsored pro, who I beleive was Jeff Boski, made an absolutely ridiculous claim, that money deposited on ACR is safer than in a US bank.

Just to avoid misunderstanding I dont have any problem with poker sites kicking out people, who they deem are not good for the game. Its not a right for anyone to play on a particular poker site. But there is a huge difference between kicking people out and not giving them their money back. If I start a bar fight, I fully expect to be asked to leave the premises and not come back again. But I also expect, that I am allowed to pick up my coat in the wardrope on my way out.

I also believe, that rather than asking people to play in a particular way, poker sites should implement technical solutions, that combat some of the behaviour, which is not good for the game. Like ACR have done now with its cash games, where people now have to sit down and pay the first blind, before they can see, who is on the table. This is completely fine. But writing in the TOS, that "excessive bumhunting" is not allowed and can lead to confiscation of funds, is bullshit.

 

[Suns of Beaches]

Thats not, what the TOS of ACR say. The TOS talk about "deliberately slowing down action to gain an unfair advantage". Letting the time bank run down every hand just to fold garbage is certainly to "deliberately slow down action", so this is not allowed on ACR according to the TOS.

Now given the fact, that this Reddit post was deleted, I am pretty sure, the guy got his money back. And most likely ACR have never stolen someones money for stalling or anything similar. But this still leads me back to the question, why ACR then insist on having TOS, that allow them to do it?

The TOS is a contract between the site and the player, and having this kind of TOS is certainly not conducive for building up a trusting customer relationsship. Or for that matter for building up trust in online poker is general. ACR is basically saying "please entrust us with your money. We are then allowed to keep it for any reason, we deem appropriate, but dont worry, because we wont actually do it, unless you do something really bad".

This is particularly ridiculous in light of the controversy between Jonathan Little and ACR, where an ACR sponsored pro, who I beleive was Jeff Boski, made an absolutely ridiculous claim, that money deposited on ACR is safer than in a US bank.

Just to avoid misunderstanding I dont have any problem with poker sites kicking out people, who they deem are not good for the game. Its not a right for anyone to play on a particular poker site. But there is a huge difference between kicking people out and not giving them their money back. If I start a bar fight, I fully expect to be asked to leave the premises and not come back again. But I also expect, that I am allowed to pick up my coat in the wardrope on my way out.

I also believe, that rather than asking people to play in a particular way, poker sites should implement technical solutions, that combat some of the behaviour, which is not good for the game. Like ACR have done now with its cash games, where people now have to sit down and pay the first blind, before they can see, who is on the table. This is completely fine. But writing in the TOS, that "excessive bumhunting" is not allowed and can lead to confiscation of funds, is bullshit.

yeah and anway how do you determine if someone is stalling? the timebank is there and given and thats it. its kind of in your possesion and noone else has a right to tell u how much of it u use. sucks for other players if that timebank is only used for stalling but really what can u do?

the only solution to this would be to flag people and individualize their timebank. so lets say player A is clearly a staller, his timebank would be reduced and that is also his penalty but taking his bankroll and account is never ever justified for this behaviour.

 

[daurensdo]

I think not, no matter how his personally earned money behaves

 

[meagain00]

I don't think so. My opinion is: if the rules permits, so we can't complain. I have 1 minute on each orbit, I can spend 1 minute per orbit, no matter with it.

The late is closing, the ITM is coming, just try your strategy. If I want to hold the time and you don't agree, play faster as you can. That's it.

There's no violation or no ethic here, only strategy.

Cheers,

meagain00

 

[illumirunus]

can u give us more details? did u also disconnect to stall even more or was it only stalling? would be cool if you could post emails with acr and tell us what really happened so we can give u more credit and act from there. thanks.

I wouldn’t disconnect intentionally but it would happen rather often because of my weak WiFi. They don’t want to hear any of it.