Recent poker hand controversy

[OzExorcist]

OK, a follow up question: if the dealer had counted your stack and given your opponent the total after you refused to answer, would you have been OK with it?

 

[robert_wrath]

A player in tournament play is NOT entitled to disclose the amount of chips he / she has in play. The Dealer is the person to ask for an exact chip. Yes its rude to ignore someone when directly spoken to, however in this game, utilize everything in the arsenal to prevail.

 

[Poker Orifice]

WOW your going to have to play a lot of $3.50 tournaments to get someones house

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-hand-analysis-51/3-50-nlhe-mtt-tough-hand-201883/

Well you were kind of making out you played at levels where you had the opptunity to play for someones house.

What you really should have said was

this ^ is getting a big douchey imo

 

[Stu_Ungar]

this ^ is getting a big douchey imo

Your probably right, but its also true.

 

[JusSumguy]

OK, a follow up question: if the dealer had counted your stack and given your opponent the total after you refused to answer, would you have been OK with it?

Yes...

Oz is right on the money here.

If there is a dealer, you need not say a thing. In fact, when I get badgered with that question I usually look at the dealer and say "I think he's talking to you."

In a table dealt game you should cooperate with the question. At the very least making your stack countable.


-

 

[Gunner57]

I have a question. Would it be against the rules then to ask the dealer to the amount of chips villain has?

Then when you are asked directly not answer?

Would it then only be against etiquette if you asked the player directly and then dont reciprocate that?

 

[BlueNowhere]

OK, a follow up question: if the dealer had counted your stack and given your opponent the total after you refused to answer, would you have been OK with it?

Yes I would've been fine with it. My stack was very countable and I'm 100% sure my opponenet knew more or less what I had. The dealer was free to count my chips and they were in very countable anyway. At no point did he ask the dealer for a count, he never took his eyes off me hence refusing to look up or speak.

 

[seachicken]

I have played live poker for over 12 years. Asking for a chip count happens all the time. If you are playing with a dealer you do not need to say a word. The dealer is responsible for counting your chips. I ask questions all the time, Especially when someone makes a strange bet or is all in. (I should note this is against the rules in some tournaments i play in and i normally get a few warnings) If they answer good, if they don't its up to them. I don't think they are being a douche even if they have asked me questions in the past. Once i move all in or make an extremely large bet, i never say a word. I look at a spot and don't say or do anything.

OP. I think how you went about it and presented your case you may have been out of line. It may have been how you were acting or doing other things that may have had the table not happy with you. I don't think you need to answer but maybe comments after the hand or other things may have upset other people.

I don't get the "pass the salt" argument. I think poker especially at a casino is completely different then sitting at my dinner table. I'm not trying to win my 5 year olds piggy bank. If you are playing with friends at a home game i would consider the guy a douche by his play and not invite him back but not at a casino.

We had a guy last weekend that kept insisting he was entitle to a pot count. He kept asking for a pot count and the first time the dealer counted the chips. I looked at the dealer after the hand and said i hope you don't plan on doing that all night. spread the chips and let the guy count. This isn't pot limit.

P.S I only ask for chip counts when the players stack is sloppy. I will also ask are you stacks colored up. If you have a clean stack and I need a count I ask the dealer. If you want to talk to the guy after that ask him questions about his stack or his bet.

 

[LombardiStix]

Your probably right, but its also true.

Because it is true and not against CC rules does it make it good manners to respond in such a way?? This is highly similar to your problem with OP.

However, I agree completely it was bad form to not disclose when you asked for the count earlier. You seem self aware that you were pissing him off and now you know what is expected of players who ask for chip counts. Hopefully, you'll change your ways. If not, you'll continue to run into tables that consider you a douch and you'll probably lose money because of it in the long run.

Good luck!
Stix

 

[brank]

I've just looked through the thread and not including myself two regard this as bad etiquette and three don't.

Lol, Ive actually changed my mind and I agree that if you ask for chip counts then its bad etiquette too not give them when asked.


I never ask so I dont tell either. I just ask people to show what they have or stand up and get a good view and if I suspect that big chips aren't visible Ill ask them or the dealer if they have any. That's what I do when asked. I line them up and not say anything cause I know I give away info when I do, or at least I feel I do.


The way the thread has gone really shows that you were probs being kind of a douche.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I will say one thing for this thread.

When playing live (I play live sometimes) I wont be either asking for or giving chip counts simply to avoid allowing someone to be purposefully annoying when Im trying to make a decision based on how many chips they have left.

 

[seachicken]

I will say one thing for this thread.

When playing live (I play live sometimes) I wont be either asking for or giving chip counts simply to avoid allowing someone to be purposefully annoying when Im trying to make a decision based on how many chips they have left.

I can tell you 99% of the time it is not a issue. I think you are right in this case that the op was out of line. I think there was more happening in this case.

 

[dj11]

If you were in a poker house, or any respectable gambling house, the dealer should have clarified the count issue, or counted for you. Other than that, give him nothing.....

 

[OzExorcist]

I can tell you 99% of the time it is not a issue.

^ this. In my experience, players that make an issue of it like OP when asked for a count are pretty rare. Most will give you a straightforward "about X" or "I had Y at the start of the hand" response without a fuss.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

To OP - to expect another player to give you a chip count and to then option your right to refuse to give a player a chip count is hypocritical. Hypocrisy is very douchy, don't you think?

So hows your running tally doing now?

 

[Stu_Ungar]

OK I have been thinking about this for a while now and my conclusion is that OPs behavior is basically showing a complete lack of experience at playing live poker.

This isnt a pop at OP and Ill attempt to explain my reasoning.

Firstly, people do really strange things at a poker table, this whole "getting inside my opponents head mentality by being a douch" Lets consider another mind game. Chess. Do you associate the kind of behavior seen at a poker table with the kind of behavior seen at a chess table? In general would you expect to see more douch like behavior at a poker table than a chess table? yet both are mind games and both are essentially based on your opponent making more mistakes than you.

So whats the difference?

Now Im going to assume that most people who play poker and act like douches at the table are generally very nice people the rest of the time. Either that or poker just attracts douches.

So whats the difference? Poker involves directly moving money. I have seen studies that have been done on stockmarket traders which show that when involved with trades the brain is stimulated in the same way as if they were taking cocaine.

Now I know a few people who use cocaine. None of them are regural users but some are more experienced users than others. I have also known the experienced users for a long time.

An inexperienced cocaine user is very likely to act like a douche when taking cocaine. An experienced user is far less likely to appear so douchy and in your face. This is either due to some kind of tolerance, although unlikely in the frequency they actually take cocaine, or its due to them relearning how to act whilst in this altered mindstate.

So if an activity that involves moving money is stimulating the brain in the same way a drug stimulates it and the person has not got enough experience of acting in a social environment whilst in this altered state, if follows that their behavior would be shifted because they havent learned to control themselves in that state.

Hence you should notice more antisocial behavior in new players than in seasoned veterans.

Does this ring true?

 

[RVladimiro]

While it makes sense I don't know if it's that simple. When I started playing with money I learnt a lot very fast, I had too. What happened very quickly was that when I played with friends for chips I was starting to annoy them seriously. In the meantime I started playing live poker, home games, but with money involved.

As I played more and more my behavior started to be the same online and live. I know I haven't played that many hands but I think (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that we end up having a poker persona that helps us be stable or focused or disciplined.

I think that this is not only related to being a douche but also how we relate to beats, tilt, coolers, etc. I remember playing live and lecturing a guy about a hand and being a complete ass about it and with the same guy a couple of months explained to him on a friendly and calm mood why it is wrong to hide chips.

Could that be related to be more contained and cerebral as part of our growth as players or as you seem to imply it is more of a social aspect of the game? Maybe there's somekind of chemistry here brain wise, don't know.

 

[pfb8888]

No thats not my case for it being ok, it was a counter argument to two of you beng against it therefore it is bad etiquette.

Human decency? It's poker. My objective is to take money form other less skilled people, I'm not really bothered who I win the money from. Human decency doesn't come into a game where you consistently prey on weak players. If someone decides to sell their house to play onine poker then I'm more than happy to take that money fom them, if I decided to leave the table where they were at then you'd have plenty of others more than willing to part them from their money. Human decency doens't come into a game where you prey an relentlessly expose peoples weaknesses.

My poker actions are based on ev, if something is +ev I do it, -ev I don't. As a poker player your one objective is to part people from their money.

this thread should be in the brags section !?

if you only care about ev then why post the question?

 

[dgking]

At a local tourney and me and another guy are fairly well stacked, I have him covered. I make a nut flush on the river, he donk bets into me and I look at him for about half a minute before asking him how much he has. He doesn't really respond, just mumbles so I told him if he didn't say I'm going all in. He started counting and then as he was saying I moved all in, he folded and started saying it was a dirty trick, I just said your body language and voice told me everything I needed to know (obviously not true, I was going all in anyway, thought i'd try abit of talking for a change). Anyway he seems to be pretty wound up by that and after getting lucky against someone he has me fairly well covered but seems to be trying to get into a pot against me. I end up against him with two pair, he re-raises so I raise half my stack instantly. He asks how much I have and I just blank him (I'm doing the hellmuth here as well, hands over mouth, not looking anywhere). He then starts saying I have to tell him, he asks twice again and I continue to ignore him. After a few minutes he ends up shoving I call and he loses. He then starts saying its appaling etiquette and a few others at the table agree with him. I argued that it wasn't and he was just pissed because I'd outplayed him in both pots and he'd let me get inside his head. I argued that my objective as a poker player is to win as many chips as possible. Don't play that much live poker so unsure if I'm correct on the etiquette, I was sure but I was the only one who seemed to think that it wasn't bad etiquette to ignore him when he asks, especially given the context when i think it's more likely to make him do something questionble. Who was correct here?

how is that bad etiquette. Well played!!!! congrats, curious tho, what was his holding, what was he represnting?

 

[BlueNowhere]

how is that bad etiquette. Well played!!!! congrats, curious tho, what was his holding, what was he represnting?

TPMK, busted flush draw. He probably thought I put him on that and thought his TPGK stood a chance, also i don't think he could stand being bluffed and me showing. Not the worst shove I've ever seen and if he did know what hand I had him on then he had a chance with that hand and even without a hand he had some decent fold equity as I probably would've played middle pair like that on someone with a busted flush draw.