$3.50 NLHE MTT: Tough hand

[BlueNowhere]

Anywhere anyone can see something I should've done differently? 2nd hand against Villian so no basically nothing about him.

PokerStars - $3.13+$0.37|15/30 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

CO: 1,739.00
BTN: 2,295.00
Hero (SB): 3,700.00
BB: 1,840.00
UTG: 3,660.00
MP: 1,586.00

Hero posts SB 15.00, BB posts BB 30.00

Pre Flop: (45.00) Hero has Q♠ Q♥

UTG raises to 90.00, fold, fold, BTN calls 90.00, Hero raises to 330.00, fold, UTG calls 240.00, fold

Flop: (780.00, 2 players) 7♦ 8♠ J♦
Hero bets 660.00, UTG calls 660.00

Turn: (2100.00, 2 players) 8♥
Hero bets 2,710.00 and is all-in, UTG calls 2,670.00 and is all-in

River: (7440.00, 2 players) 6♥

 

[BlueNowhere]

Resuls below this message in white:

Villian has JJ, wins with full house.

 

[Jillychemung]

Looks good to me. No way I could put villain's range on just AA/KK here with the UTG raise and with that flop I can't see slowing down as an option.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Thats what I thought, I think it would've ended up all in pre with AA/KK. AK possible but I can't see a call on the flop for a 1/6 of his stack. Just left me utterly dumbstruck as to what he was on.

 

[Poker Orifice]

When he 'calls' pre & then calls the flop bet... what are we figuring he has? (honestly before looking, I assumed JJ right away... AdKd would likely come over the top on flop (if they just 'called' pre).. doubt AQ is ever calling you pre, which leaves a pretty limited range of JJ-AA.(does 99-TT call here pre?.. if so they're folding to this flop bet) Does QQ-AA just 'call' on the flop here? (considering stack sizes).. probably not.. & does KK, AA just flat pre & not 4bet? (sometimes... I like to often just flat a 3bet pre w AA especially). As limited as it sounds, it had me assuming villain has JJ. Typically we're never limiting our opponents to such a specific range (many things to consider including the donkey factor) but in this spot, what else does he have?

Not bein' results oriented here but fwiw I prob just flat pre in early levels while OOP here w QQ (adds deception to my hand strength as well).
I'm a bit of a donk though & while playing in fields with a bunch of poor players, I like to stick around for awhile, knowing there's typically many spots to pick up chips.

 

[BlueNowhere]

When he 'calls' pre & then calls the flop bet... what are we figuring he has? (honestly before looking, I assumed JJ right away... AdKd would likely come over the top on flop (if they just 'called' pre).. doubt AQ is ever calling you pre, which leaves a pretty limited range of JJ-AA.(does 99-TT call here pre?.. if so they're folding to this flop bet) Does QQ-AA just 'call' on the flop here? (considering stack sizes).. probably not.. & does KK, AA just flat pre & not 4bet? (sometimes... I like to often just flat a 3bet pre w AA especially). As limited as it sounds, it had me assuming villain has JJ. Typically we're never limiting our opponents to such a specific range (many things to consider including the donkey factor) but in this spot, what else does he have?

Not bein' results oriented here but fwiw I prob just flat pre in early levels while OOP here w QQ (adds deception to my hand strength as well).
I'm a bit of a donk though & while playing in fields with a bunch of poor players, I like to stick around for awhile, knowing there's typically many spots to pick up chips.

I'm figuring that JJ is going to do a raise to about 800 or shove seen as though (barring a flop like this) they are next to impossible to play post-flop. I couldn't really put him on a hand as the play had thrown me out so much, I guess I was optimistically leaning towards AJ which seemed to make sense. Flat call with TPTK is not unusual at these stakes but by the turn the hand had got messy with flush draw, made straight and 8 pairing (plus the obvious set of 7's and J's) that I'd given up trying to value bet Queens and wanted to take the pot down and get the hell away from it.Even if he had flatted with AA or KK I'm not to worried about that as its just one of those coolers. AJ is pretty much all I could put him on providing that he wasn't a donk who had decided to go crazy with A8 or something like that.

I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see 99 or 1010 call here, especially on the flop if they think AK or AQ make up a reasonable part of my range and they suspect the pot sized bet is just a continuation bet and even if they've got it wrong they still have a gutshot and a chance of making a set. I think we're giving the opponent too much credit here personally as I've seen a lot worse happen at these limits. I think even 55+ could be included in his range, although even if we presume he's a pretty competant player I think we're beating too much of his range to get rid. Out of interest would you have folded QQ's when you put him on J's?

 

[RamdeeBen]

I think you played the hand fine, just unlucky.

I didn't even look at the results, but I can't really ever put anyone on a set most times..I'm a donkey though.

The bets was fine and shove was fine, if I put him on anythign at all, it was A,J with a draw maybe.

 

[Poker Orifice]

, if I put him on anythign at all, it was A,J with a draw maybe.

You'd call here preflop w AJ? ("doubt AQ is every calling you here pre" < from above... wow.. guess I'm just way off here then, lol... I don't think so though)

 

[Poker Orifice]

I'm figuring that JJ is going to do a raise to about 800 or shove seen as though (barring a flop like this) they are next to impossible to play post-flop.

So you figure JJ is going to 4bet/call here.. or 4bet/fold to a shove?(what would be the point of 4betting w JJ in early levels in this spot... just cuz they're 'hard to play postflop? we're 100bb's deep!)
I think it's a mistake to think that villain is thinking the same as we're thinking.

 

[BlueNowhere]

You'd call here preflop w AJ? ("doubt AQ is every calling you here pre" < from above... wow.. guess I'm just way off here then, lol... I don't think so though)

I wouldn't but i think you're giving villian way too much credit, generally when someone invests in the pot they don't really fold, just flat as above. I'd say AJ is hugely in villians range and some don't even flinch at getting it all in with TPTK, even on a messy board.

 

[Pascal-lf]

definitely think AJ is in this guys range, probably QJ and KJ suited too

 

[BlueNowhere]

So you figure JJ is going to 4bet/call here.. or 4bet/fold to a shove?(what would be the point of 4betting w JJ in early levels in this spot... just cuz they're 'hard to play postflop? we're 100bb's deep!)
I think it's a mistake to think that villain is thinking the same as we're thinking.

You said you put Villian on jacks from the way the hand played out, would you have folded Queens? From what I've seen at these limits a 4 bet then call shove in not unlikely from jacks at all.

 

[baudib1]

JJ in this spot UTG is typically a fold here but I guess I'd have a tough time not calling in position.

 

[RamdeeBen]

JJ in this spot UTG is typically a fold here but I guess I'd have a tough time not calling in position.

JJ folding here UTG to a SB raise? I can't ever fold this PF 6max.

Surely SB is/can be 3betting wider than Jacks here? A,10s+ Any pocket pairs for example out of position? I think with Jacks, I'd be 4betting seeing what villian does and IF shoved on then I can accept I'm most likely behind and can fold. I can never fold jacks to a 3bet from a SB though..

When Jacks just flat, I think you can only put someone on a mediocre pair and A,10s+ and Queens are nearly always good here unless he was being tricky and slow playing Kings/Aces I can't ever see doing anything other then getting it all in on the turn.

When he does call the shove, I expect A,Js,K,Js+ Or a pair 6'6-9'9

 

[RamdeeBen]

You'd call here preflop w AJ? ("doubt AQ is every calling you here pre" < from above... wow.. guess I'm just way off here then, lol... I don't think so though)

I don't most times no, do people at micros though? Yeah, and much much worse. People will call any ace suited, even FR at micros and 6max it's highly likely. Even in position with A,J suited I don't think it's a bad hand 6max to play in position especially when people can quite often be 3betting worse PF in the SB here.

I think someones 3bet range here at 6max out of position is medium pairs+ and A,10s+K,Js+

I expect people to shove or at the least re-raise Jacks+ here.

Hell, people will often ship ANY pair PF at 6max I've seen.


I can't ever put anyone on a set of jacks here and I'm sure more times than not we're way ahead everytime we shove the turn.

 

[baudib1]

Who 3-bets 10x with 66-99 vs. UTG?

 

[RamdeeBen]

Who 3-bets 10x with 66-99 vs. UTG?

Well bearing in mind it's micros, I see it quite often, people will 3bet even 10x with mediocre pairs because they don't want to play out of position or rather more thinking "I have a pair, can't let it go at 6max"

Some will very often just shove here from the SB with any pair too.

Ideally they obviously should/would be flatting here hoping to set mine but it's rarely the case.

Anyway, realistically how often do you see UTG raises with suited connectors, broadways etc? I see it a ton.

Maybe it's a leak by me, but I will 3bet here with 8'8s+ in the SB, even to UTG raise, I'd rather get a fold/shoved on so I can happily lay down my pair I don't know if it's jut me but odds of two people holding a pair at 6max is even rarer, then unless you hit your set your stuck as to what to do post flop with a likely scare card coming and bearing in mind noone's opening range at 6max is EVER just high pairs.

I think most people forget (from my experience at micros 6max, might be different for others) people can and will quite often open so light UTG, I'm talking Ax suited and connectors/suited connectors are quite common, especially when people are deep and often enough you get a fair few flat calls, the payoff can be huge.
I'd rather get a feel for someones range PF, rather than second guessing post flop so I can 3bet even mediocre pairs out of position.

 

[baudib1]

yeah, I don't think so. 3-betting or shoving 88 from SB here is pretty bad.

you act as if people in the micros are super lag aggressive or something. At this level it's far more common for people's 3-bet range to be 2% or less with 0 bluff combos than it is to be over 5%. From my experience 4-betting JJ here 100+ BBs deep will run you into KK-AA like 95% of the time.

 

[RamdeeBen]

yeah, I don't think so. 3-betting or shoving 88 from SB here is pretty bad.

you act as if people in the micros are super lag aggressive or something. At this level it's far more common for people's 3-bet range to be 2% or less with 0 bluff combos than it is to be over 5%. From my experience 4-betting JJ here 100+ BBs deep will run you into KK-AA like 95% of the time.

Shoving, obviously is really bad. You think 3 betting from the SB is so bad? I know it's not ideal in most cases with a mediocre pair.

4betting jacks this deep you think your running into KK-AA 95% of the time ? I think you're giving far to much credit to micros here, I think you get snapped with A,Qs+ at the micros. I've even seen much worse snap calls with any sort of Ax suited hand.

I don't hate the flat call from jacks, but I'm unsure of as to what this shows to the SB?

It shows to me, he's holding 6'6-9'9's, A,10s+,K,Js+

If I'm hero here, these are the only hands I can ever put him on.

I'm also unsure of what you're expecting to do once the flop comes, even with no over cards and you're facing aggression, do you lay your jacks down at 6max here now after flatting in the hope of hitting a set? I think Jacks are to strong here in the hope of set mining..


Your might well be right(You do have a lot more experience than me), but I like the discussions and insights as to your thinking and others so keep them coming, it helps my game too not just the OP's but if you can change my mind, I'd love the reasoning behind it all, I like being given correct answers to theories regarding hands as it shows me I still have some major bad leaks which I want to help improve all the time.

 

[baudib1]

I'm confused so I don't know. I folded preflop.

I'm not giving anyone credit. I assume microstakes players play their cards face up and are bad about it. You'll get way more 3-betting at higher stakes and better players.

 

[RamdeeBen]

I'm confused so I don't know. I folded preflop.

I'm not giving anyone credit. I assume microstakes players play their cards face up and are bad about it. You'll get way more 3-betting at higher stakes and better players.

lol..

All I'm saying is that just if someone opens UTG at 6max then are faced with a 3bet from the SB that my jacks are never good, I think they are good a lot of the time. You face a 3bet from a various number of hands in the SB not just Kings/Aces from my experience.

The only reason I asked is that it sounds like you would play Jacks/Queens (if you are UTG raiser) like you would play any medium pair and just flat in postion in the hope of hitting a set or am I wrong?

Any scare card, ok you can fold but even when facing aggression with no over cards to your jacks, can you let go here? Any pair is betting this flop and any sort of draw.

If so and you expect villian to be holding Kings-Aces then hats of to you, but I just can't see it most times. Any overs will c-bet, any flush draws etc as a semi bluff.

 

[arkstfan]

Like sizing pre. For the record, this is like the worst flop where we still have an overpair. This is not t52 rainbow. Have a ton of bbs and alot of lags will flat stuff that crushes this board like t9s ip this early. You also have to keep in mind that stacking off here is pretty bad.

I think a better line is 1-3 to half pot otf, if he raises revaluate probably fold. (Meh after thinking about it this is just such a bad flop it's almost worth giving up the betting lead and check calling)

If he calls and an 8 comes on the turn, despite it usually being a good card, I'm check calling for pot control (the pot is smaller now).

Prolly c/f alot of rivers if he decides to bet them might bluff catch some absolute bricks.

This spot is just really marginal to be putting all your chips in on any street. If you are ahead it's not by much, and when you are behind you are crushed.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I don't most times no,
but sometimes you do? Pretty f'n awful if you ask me... although I guess I assume that villain is capable of thinking .. unless they've shown otherwise.(or I can see their results are bad)
I think someones 3bet range here at 6max out of position is medium pairs+ and A,10s+K,Js+
So we're including KJ in their OOP 3bet range vs a UTG raise in early levels? Just a big WoW! I need to make some adjustments to the 'wtf are they thinking (random donk factor)' ranges then.
I expect people to shove or at the least re-raise Jacks+ here.
I don't. Why are they shoving JJ here?
I can't ever put anyone on a set of jacks here and I'm sure more times than not we're way ahead everytime we shove the turn.

I can. (unless they folded pre... which would also be quite possible imo)

 

[RamdeeBen]

I can. (unless they folded pre... which would also be quite possible imo)

You quote strangly sometimes PO

I can't work out what I typed and what you typed because it's all in one quote hehe. You usually bold it out.

Anyway, like I say, I might well and most likely will be wrong but I'm all for discussing theories anyway.

You really think A,Js 6max is really such a bad holding, regardless of how early the blinds are? For one, I can see people open worse than A,J at 6max, I really can (Even UTG)


Ok, in an ideal world K,Js isn't a hand to be 3betting OOP with, maybe I'm being a bit naive there and classing it as "common" but, I have seen worse though, people will quite often treat any Aces as a monster and willing to even get their chips in here. I see many broadways, high suited connectors 3bet, just to see what UTG raise does. Sometimes you can quite often get folds, along with being shoved on so a mixed bagg. You must of been/seen it yourself for how long you have been playing some of the crazy stuff at micros, especially 6 max.

By the way, will you always just flat out of position with a medium pair? We all know, we have to hit that 7/1 shot in any sort of chance of taking the pot down, or find some brilliant flop. I don't dote on my medium pairs and can let them go, but at 6max, I can be quite sure sometimes even to UTG raises that are pair is slightly ahead most times, considering an UTG raise doesn't consist of Queens+ but has medium pairs+ A,10+,K,Js+ etc..

Why do I expect a raise or shove from jacks here?

Well, the reason I think that is purely because, you have already been 3bet PF and just flatted. I have to from my POV find how strong we "really" are.

I can't help but feel we are playing Jacks to weak by just calling PF in the hope of set mining.

Bear in mind someones 3bet range, can also be quite weaker in the SB (from my experience) Anyway, so even with a nice flop, facing aggression, do you fold jacks here only to find you can quite often be facing a C-BET with A,10s+, K,Js etc.. I feel playing to set mine purely because you faced a 3bet PF from the SB is to weak for such a pocket pair. I just think from my perspective that it looks like you're basically under valuing your jacks already PF and put them in the 5'5-9'9s mid pocket range, ready for a check/fold if you missed your set.

If you can really put people on a set ofjacks here, then I'm amazed and hats of to you I guess I still have a lot to learn hehe

anyway, I love healthy debates, improves my game and makes me think more outside of the box of my playing game.

Fire some more PO!!

 

[baudib1]

Good post by arks, I think the sizing postflop is bad as well.

Ramdeebam, I don't know why you continue to go over this again and again making the same points. I think micros mtt players have pretty depolarized 3-betting ranges especially 100 BBs deep. If this is Shaun Deeb you're playing, then 4-bet/6-bet shove all day.

I guarantee if you build a big enough sample, search for hands when you hold JJ UTG, get 3-bet from the blinds with more than 50 BBs and face barrels on flop and turn when you hold an overpair, you will not be getting the money in good if you stack off.