Pokerstars Not Taking Action Against Poland Collusion/Softplayers

[Zorba]

Head of security of pokerstars told me one of their main accounts got banned and balance confiscated.


Guys, look at those hand histories. Ask anyone that plays this format regularly and they will agree their is cheating going on.


I have something else that i will post but not yet. This is going to get very good.

I highly doubt that Stars security told you anything, they don't discuss details like that.

Pokerstars is lying about the situation. I spoke to a very smart and respectable 2p2 poster who agreed with me on this issue. He and I know whats going on but stars refuses to do anything.

Wow a person from another forum agreed with you, then it must be true.

How do you know he is smart, did you give him a quiz?

Look through the hand histories.


Your opinion will certainly be the opposite.

No need for me to look at hands if Stars security has already investigated, I doubt Poker Orifice needs to either.

:top:

 

[HAMC81]

Im not surprised. Cant expect much of pokerstars with their new greedy and corrupt AF management.

 

[kucu2014]

This is very disgusting. Thanks for the info I will pay attention

 

[dondrewww]

This is very disgusting. Thanks for the info I will pay attention

Do you agree that this is collusion?

 

[dondrewww]

Anyone with a clue can tell it is. Its not fun for those players when players from other countries are aware of it.

 

[dondrewww]

Even the other guy above isn't commenting this anymore after taking a look at those hand histories.

 

[dondrewww]

Anyone that reads the first few posts already knows whats going on.

 

[kucu2014]

Do you agree that this is collusion?

Yes very suspicious

 

[dondrewww]

I been asked by a few posters to update this thread.

I will show you how pokerstars detect collusion and how their system is wrong.



PokerStars Hand #162583749083: Tournament #1751501265, $3.30+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2016/12/07 18:12:59 ET
Table '1751501265 2' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: dyna140 (32578 in chips)
Seat 2: rastafari898 (28089 in chips)
Seat 3: cusirc (21919 in chips)
Seat 4: Vronx93 (38654 in chips)
Seat 5: Brunski888 (57239 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)
Seat 6: Hautschi57 (29535 in chips)
Seat 7: MiracleQ (27634 in chips)
Seat 8: lambo_black (45618 in chips)
Seat 9: Phatnoz16 (43307 in chips)
dyna140: posts the ante 200
rastafari898: posts the ante 200
cusirc: posts the ante 200
Vronx93: posts the ante 200
Hautschi57: posts the ante 200
MiracleQ: posts the ante 200
lambo_black: posts the ante 200
Phatnoz16: posts the ante 200
Hautschi57: posts small blind 1000
MiracleQ: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dyna140 [5h 4c]
lambo_black: calls 2000
Phatnoz16: folds
dyna140: folds
rastafari898: folds
cusirc: folds
Vronx93: raises 4000 to 6000
Hautschi57: folds
MiracleQ: folds
lambo_black: calls 4000
*** FLOP *** [Kc 4s 2s]
lambo_black: checks
Vronx93: bets 5644
lambo_black: calls 5644
*** TURN *** [Kc 4s 2s] [9d]
lambo_black: checks
Vronx93: checks
*** RIVER *** [Kc 4s 2s 9d] [Ad]
lambo_black: checks
Vronx93: bets 14780
lambo_black: calls 14780
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Vronx93: shows [7d As] (a pair of Aces)
lambo_black: shows [Ah 4h] (two pair, Aces and Fours)
lambo_black collected 57448 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 57448 | Rake 0
Board [Kc 4s 2s 9d Ad]
Seat 1: dyna140 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: rastafari898 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: cusirc folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Vronx93 (button) showed [7d As] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 6: Hautschi57 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: MiracleQ (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: lambo_black showed [Ah 4h] and won (57448) with two pair, Aces and Fours
Seat 9: Phatnoz16 folded before Flop (didn't bet)



Lambo black is a very loose poland player... like 32/23 stats. Which means hes a bit loser and those stats mean they pretty much raise preflop all the time. Here he decides to just limp utg with a4s? He either raises or folds. Then suddenly of course vronx is back at it and raises in late position with a7? Fine. Now look at the flop. Lambo check calls the flop with bottom pair. On the turn they both check. Then on the river an ace comes. There is no possible flush on the board. Lambo checks river? Then when vronx93 bets river... he just flat calls instead of shoving him all in? He has 2 pair? If vronx had stronger than that, he would not check back the turn. Also how does suddenly one player limp a hand like this and of course suddenly vronx has him dominated huh? Here same mistake like previous poland players. He check calls bottom pair. Vronx didn't bet the turn by accident... had he done it... lambo folds and then chip balance to the shorter stack vronx. Now on the river. Lambo checks river? Then calls the river without check raising with 2 pair? no flush possible no straight.







PokerStars Hand #162584047486: Tournament #1751501265, $3.30+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVI (1250/2500) - 2016/12/07 18:18:56 ET
Table '1751501265 2' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: dyna140 (27878 in chips)
Seat 2: rastafari898 (55478 in chips)
Seat 3: cusirc (16969 in chips)
Seat 4: Vronx93 (60960 in chips)
Seat 7: MiracleQ (20434 in chips)
Seat 8: lambo_black (61312 in chips)
Seat 9: Phatnoz16 (38607 in chips)
dyna140: posts the ante 250
rastafari898: posts the ante 250
cusirc: posts the ante 250
Vronx93: posts the ante 250
MiracleQ: posts the ante 250
lambo_black: posts the ante 250
Phatnoz16: posts the ante 250
MiracleQ: posts small blind 1250
lambo_black: posts big blind 2500
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dyna140 [5s Kh]
Phatnoz16: folds
dyna140: folds
rastafari898: folds
cusirc: folds
dyna140 said, "looks like you going to have to get another acct"
Vronx93: calls 2500
dyna140 said, "when this one gets banned justl ike your boy m"
MiracleQ: calls 1250
lambo_black: checks
*** FLOP *** [8s 3d 9d]
MiracleQ: checks
dyna140 said, "miracle they are playing 2 on 1"
lambo_black: bets 2500
dyna140 said, "he calls"
Vronx93: calls 2500
MiracleQ: raises 15184 to 17684 and is all-in
lambo_black: calls 15184
Vronx93: calls 15184
*** TURN *** [8s 3d 9d] [6d]
lambo_black: checks
Vronx93: checks
*** RIVER *** [8s 3d 9d 6d] [2c]
lambo_black: checks
Vronx93: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MiracleQ: shows [Tc 9h] (a pair of Nines)
lambo_black: shows [9s Ks] (a pair of Nines - King kicker)
Vronx93: mucks hand
lambo_black collected 62302 from pot
MiracleQ finished the tournament in 21st place and received $11.00.
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 62302 | Rake 0
Board [8s 3d 9d 6d 2c]
Seat 1: dyna140 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: rastafari898 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: cusirc folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Vronx93 (button) mucked [Js Qs]
Seat 7: MiracleQ (small blind) showed [Tc 9h] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 8: lambo_black (big blind) showed [9s Ks] and won (62302) with a pair of Nines
Seat 9: Phatnoz16 folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Look at this. vronx has QJs. Look who is in the bb. Suddenly he limps all of a sudden? poland players play much stranger when their fellow pole is in the blinds. They do not open limp like this if the bb is not polish. Of course it folds to sb who is not polish call the sb and obviously hes not sandwiched between 2 poles. They look... sb checks. Poland player lambo bets... obviously vronx will call to get the nonpole out. Here the nonpole check raise all in. Then suddenly both of them flat call. Then check it all the way down.


Heres the issue with this. Lambo assuming would reshove all in here with his top pair king kicker assuming the other guy was not polish. By doing this, its going to be 2 on 1. Also, look at vronx flat calling. he has Queen high. Are you serious? Yes he has an inside straight draw but he does not make calls like this assuming the other 2 guys are not polish because he know the other guy in the bb would put pressure on him. And of course check turn and check river. Then K9 takes it down with top pair. The sb has very little chance to win this pot if he gets involved here.


Look at how these players play. Look at how they limp when their fellow poles are in the bb. They do not do this stuff when by themselves



Many posters here looked at this and have agreed this is straight up cheating. They do make limps like this by themselves.

 

[dondrewww]

Here is the type of response you get from pokerstars on this. First hand looks bad. 2nd one looks very bad.



- It is not totally inconceivable given the play of the hand that the guy could have AK – granted you would expect him to carry on betting the turn but regardless it is not outside the realms of possibility.
- When this hand happened there were 29 players left in the tourney – so two off the bubble. If lambo_black goes all in and is called and loses then he could very much still be the bubble boy with blinds about to hit him.

End of the day he makes the safe move and at the same time makes a ‘fellow pole’ lose over two thirds of his stack. I would genuinely be interested if you posted the evidence on 2+2 including the proximity to the bubble and see what others thought but this is in no way collusion. Fwiw there is nothing linking the players either from a technological or financial perspective either.

The second hand I do agree is more odd. I can understand the float for the min bet with overs, gutshot and the stack he has, but the all in call looks very odd. I will bcc someone to this who will be able to raise a collusion review into this pair to see if there is anything more to it.



This is from the 2nd hand



We found no evidence of any of this suspicious play. Further, note the aggressive play between 'Vronx93' and 'lambo_black' in the hand below. This is not indicative of a cooperative relationship, as cooperating players will generally avoid confrontations with each other.


This is the evidence they will provide you if they look at 2 players.


PokerStars Hand #163259310439: Tournament #1765188518, $13.77+$1.23 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2016/12/20 16:09:25 ET
Table '1765188518 5' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: kallesahl (1480 in chips)
Seat 3: ikar008 (3312 in chips)
Seat 4: theboy7 (1304 in chips)
Seat 5: fedexpres203 (1284 in chips)
Seat 6: Vronx93 (1924 in chips)
Seat 7: lambo_black (1518 in chips)
Seat 8: LimpNaCadeia (107 in chips)
Seat 9: YoungBeezie (2248 in chips)
kallesahl: posts the ante 15
ikar008: posts the ante 15
theboy7: posts the ante 15
fedexpres203: posts the ante 15
Vronx93: posts the ante 15
lambo_black: posts the ante 15
LimpNaCadeia: posts the ante 15
YoungBeezie: posts the ante 15
Moving Bets to Pot
Vronx93: posts small blind 75
lambo_black: posts big blind 150

16:09:25 *** HOLE CARDS ***

16:09:25 Dealt to kallesahl
16:09:25 Dealt to ikar008
16:09:25 Dealt to theboy7
16:09:25 Dealt to fedexpres203
16:09:25 Dealt to Vronx93 [As 3s]
16:09:25 Dealt to lambo_black [Ad Qs]
16:09:25 Dealt to LimpNaCadeia
16:09:25 Dealt to YoungBeezie

16:09:40 LimpNaCadeia: calls 92 and is all-in
16:09:46 YoungBeezie: folds
16:09:50 kallesahl: folds
16:09:51 ikar008: folds
16:09:51 theboy7: folds
16:09:53 fedexpres203: folds
16:10:08 Vronx93: raises 1759 to 1909 and is all-in
16:10:09 lambo_black: calls 1353 and is all-in
16:10:09 Moving Bets to Pot
16:10:09 Uncalled bet (406) returned to Vronx93

16:10:11 *** FLOP *** [Qh 3c 9h]

16:10:13 *** TURN *** [Qh 3c 9h] [Tc]

16:10:15 *** RIVER *** [Qh 3c 9h Tc] [4s]

16:10:16 *** SHOW DOWN ***

16:10:16 Vronx93: shows [As 3s] (a pair of Threes)
16:10:16 lambo_black: shows [Ad Qs] (a pair of Queens)
16:10:17 lambo_black collected 2822 from side pot
16:10:17 LimpNaCadeia: shows [6c 8d] (high card Queen)
16:10:18 lambo_black collected 396 from main pot
16:10:18 LimpNaCadeia finished the tournament in 63rd place




Thats right. Even if you softplay with another player. If you shove all in with Ax with under 10bb and the bb calls with an Ax with under 10bb... thats enough to dismiss them from any cheating. This is completely standard and if anyone folded here this would be straight up cheating. The issue again is a lot of these players are very clever and dont do this to draw attention.


In other words, even if these 2 players had 5bb and went all in and call... this one play is enough to dismiss collusion from all the other hands.


Look at the first hand. If vronx had AK there, why wouldn't bet bet the turn? Because if he did have AK, he doesnt want to take his fellow players entire stack. Then on the river when he makes top pair, lambo decides to check call with 2 pair? You know security's response on this? Maybe he was worried vronx had AK. If vronx had AK, that is even more collusion. Many players who actually play this format agreed vronx does not play like this by himself. He raises a limp there with a7 with that stack size against a nonpolish player? He never does that? Only time things like this happen is when 2 or more polish players at the table.


In other words their security collusion system is broken just as many others told me via PM.


Anyone else at the tables will be welcomed to post in here.

 

[dondrewww]

PokerStars Hand #164371618236: Tournament #1788067137, $3.30+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (500/1000) - 2017/01/10 17:17:35 ET
Table '1788067137 10' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: fedorrrrrrrr (20272 in chips)
Seat 3: woxix (13827 in chips)
Seat 4: MIL_O_90 (5899 in chips)
Seat 5: richardchen8 (31258 in chips)
Seat 6: Puciamonas (9445 in chips)
Seat 7: dyna140 (21263 in chips)
Seat 8: andrew_flash (10678 in chips)
Seat 9: Jakub507 (33152 in chips)
fedorrrrrrrr: posts the ante 100
woxix: posts the ante 100
MIL_O_90: posts the ante 100
richardchen8: posts the ante 100
Puciamonas: posts the ante 100
dyna140: posts the ante 100
andrew_flash: posts the ante 100
Jakub507: posts the ante 100
woxix: posts small blind 500
MIL_O_90: posts big blind 1000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dyna140 [Qd 6d]
richardchen8: folds
Puciamonas: folds
dyna140: folds
andrew_flash: folds
Jakub507: calls 1000
dyna140 said, "look hes limping"
fedorrrrrrrr: calls 1000
woxix: calls 500
dyna140 said, "call"
MIL_O_90: checks
*** FLOP *** [2s Qs 7s]
dyna140 said, "make it 2 on 2 now"
woxix: checks
MIL_O_90: checks
Jakub507: checks
fedorrrrrrrr: checks
*** TURN *** [2s Qs 7s] [Td]
dyna140 said, "lol"
woxix: bets 2764
dyna140 said, "limping for no reason to try to help mil win the pot"
MIL_O_90: folds
Jakub507: folds
fedorrrrrrrr: folds
Uncalled bet (2764) returned to woxix
dyna140 said, "good job fellas"
woxix collected 4800 from pot
woxix: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4800 | Rake 0
Board [2s Qs 7s Td]
Seat 2: fedorrrrrrrr (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 3: woxix (small blind) collected (4800)
Seat 4: MIL_O_90 (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 5: richardchen8 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Puciamonas folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: dyna140 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: andrew_flash folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Jakub507 folded on the Turn


Oh look poland player jakub507 decides to limp for no reason. But of course there is. BB is fellow poland player Mil_0_90. What typically happens here is everyone else would then fold. Remember the limp to make it look very strong that i mentioned earlier? Then once the flop comes, shorter stack poland player mil_0_90 would just shove all in and then jakub would fold to get chips to the player that needs chips... aka the shorter stack poland player.



So when i saw this, i typed it in chat to let the players know.


fedorrrrrrrr and woxix are players that i have played with before and are well aware of this cheating play by the poland players to try to get chips to the shorter stack poland players. What happens? Both of these regulars limp since they aren't going to allow that shorter stack poland player to win the pot.


What happens? Both poland players check and then woxix bets and of course both poland players fold. So basically here, the poland players know they don't have the advantage since its 2 on 2. Remember they only do things like when its 2 on 1.


Woxix and fedooor agrees with this and they aren't going to get this continue. Woxix then made a comment that he agrees limping there makes zero sense. Now look at it this way. Imagine only woxix or fedoor limps. Then what will happen is Mil would shove all in... then the other poland player jakub would just flat call or even raise to get the nonpoland player out.

 

[dondrewww]

Will have something to post on this again.


But to the other players, take a look at the hand histories.

 

[dondrewww]

PokerStars Hand #164371618236: Tournament #1788067137, $3.30+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (500/1000) - 2017/01/10 17:17:35 ET
Table '1788067137 10' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: fedorrrrrrrr (20272 in chips)
Seat 3: woxix (13827 in chips)
Seat 4: MIL_O_90 (5899 in chips)
Seat 5: richardchen8 (31258 in chips)
Seat 6: Puciamonas (9445 in chips)
Seat 7: dyna140 (21263 in chips)
Seat 8: andrew_flash (10678 in chips)
Seat 9: Jakub507 (33152 in chips)
fedorrrrrrrr: posts the ante 100
woxix: posts the ante 100
MIL_O_90: posts the ante 100
richardchen8: posts the ante 100
Puciamonas: posts the ante 100
dyna140: posts the ante 100
andrew_flash: posts the ante 100
Jakub507: posts the ante 100
woxix: posts small blind 500
MIL_O_90: posts big blind 1000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dyna140 [Qd 6d]
richardchen8: folds
Puciamonas: folds
dyna140: folds
andrew_flash: folds
Jakub507: calls 1000
dyna140 said, "look hes limping"
fedorrrrrrrr: calls 1000
woxix: calls 500
dyna140 said, "call"
MIL_O_90: checks
*** FLOP *** [2s Qs 7s]
dyna140 said, "make it 2 on 2 now"
woxix: checks
MIL_O_90: checks
Jakub507: checks
fedorrrrrrrr: checks
*** TURN *** [2s Qs 7s] [Td]
dyna140 said, "lol"
woxix: bets 2764
dyna140 said, "limping for no reason to try to help mil win the pot"
MIL_O_90: folds
Jakub507: folds
fedorrrrrrrr: folds
Uncalled bet (2764) returned to woxix
dyna140 said, "good job fellas"
woxix collected 4800 from pot
woxix: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4800 | Rake 0
Board [2s Qs 7s Td]
Seat 2: fedorrrrrrrr (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 3: woxix (small blind) collected (4800)
Seat 4: MIL_O_90 (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 5: richardchen8 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Puciamonas folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: dyna140 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: andrew_flash folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Jakub507 folded on the Turn


Oh look poland player jakub507 decides to limp for no reason. But of course there is. BB is fellow poland player Mil_0_90. What typically happens here is everyone else would then fold. Remember the limp to make it look very strong that i mentioned earlier? Then once the flop comes, shorter stack poland player mil_0_90 would just shove all in and then jakub would fold to get chips to the player that needs chips... aka the shorter stack poland player.



So when i saw this, i typed it in chat to let the players know.


fedorrrrrrrr and woxix are players that i have played with before and are well aware of this cheating play by the poland players to try to get chips to the shorter stack poland players. What happens? Both of these regulars limp since they aren't going to allow that shorter stack poland player to win the pot.


What happens? Both poland players check and then woxix bets and of course both poland players fold. So basically here, the poland players know they don't have the advantage since its 2 on 2. Remember they only do things like when its 2 on 1.


Woxix and fedooor agrees with this and they aren't going to get this continue. Woxix then made a comment that he agrees limping there makes zero sense. Now look at it this way. Imagine only woxix or fedoor limps. Then what will happen is Mil would shove all in... then the other poland player jakub would just flat call or even raise to get the nonpoland player out.

hey Poker Orifice, you think this looks fine to you?

 

[Alexandr Svinarshyk]

I had such a situation, somewhere in 2014, when I was playing in a tournament with a friend, I threw off the cards so that a friend could take the bank, after that me and a friend poker stars blocked

 

[PokerNuts01]

You might be telling the truth ... but it is not nice to blame the 30 million Polish people because of a few cheaters .. I know a couple of Poles who are great players and good guys!!

 

[Poker Orifice]

I been asked by a few posters to update this thread.

Really? You have been? By who? (or are these just more fictitious people you're talking about)

Please list these names...

 

[ParagonPoker]

Seems like an odd situation but at the same time a bit difficult to prevent or take action against. Is certainly a conundrum.

 

[dondrewww]

If you check 2p2, a respected player has mentioned Lithianian players did this at satellites as well. Basically anyone that plays these formats agree with it.

 

[peowulf]

Many years ago I was playing a double or nothing on Pokerstars (that was before they became Fifty-50s). I noticed collusion between two players (I don't remember their nationality), I reported it on the site and not only did they credit me with the prize money (I came sixth), they banned the colluding players.

Point is, If you suspect collusion, take it up to Pokerstars. They'll review the hands and make a ruling. Maybe they'll punish them, maybe not, but personally I trust Pokerstars to do the right thing.

 

[dondrewww]

If you look at the way they play, its obvious they dont play hard against their fellow comrades compared to when against other players.

 

[B1BOMBER]

If you want justice improve your game so that you can beat them even when there is collusion or soft play and it wont bother you any more.

 

[Alphamuddle]

Wow, that is a nice read. Sure, all Polish players just wait to sit at the same table in the tournament with another Pole and go easy on them. It seems to me that you just can't get over losing to them