Home Game Situation - how to handle?

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knurll

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I was playing in a "friendly" house game last week when this situation occured: We were playing down to 5-handed, I'm short stacked in the big blind. 2 people fold. The button moves all in, the Small Blind calls. Now back to me. I already had 20% of my chips in but considering the 2 people all in were roughly equal in chips, I figure I wasn't beating both of them with my hand and that 1 of them will be eliminated or crippled, I fold.
The 2 all ins then innocently (i think) suggest just chopping the pot before they even turn over their cards. They thought you could do this just as in a cash game. They both much their cards and shuffle the deck.

Once i realized, I objected because they basically colluded to steal my big blind. They said that since the deck was shuffled and their cards mucked there's no way to play out the hand and they should just split the pot equally and continue on with the game. But the fact is that I ONLY folded based on the fact that I knew someone would be eliminated or crippled.

Question: How should this be handled?
 
Mojomax747

Mojomax747

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In future make sure all the added house rules are clear before the session starts and yes i think its right to say that they colluded once you folded.
If you ask me you should try and get that particular house rule excluded for the future.
 
K

knurll

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Yes, they were wrong but how should the hand have been handled?
 
bubbasbestbabe

bubbasbestbabe

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I would've broken a beer bottle, held it to one of their throats, and got my money back. And , oh yea, made them promise never to do that again.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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establish clear rules before playing again.

button and sb are idiots, for the record.
 
Mojomax747

Mojomax747

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Yes, they were wrong but how should the hand have been handled?

If you mean how should it have been handled once the deck had been shuffled the simple answer is that all players who had any chips in that pot should get back their chips as though the hand never took place and for the record hard as it is to find a home game i would refuse to ever play there again until cheating yes cheating had been fully eradicated.
 
MrDaMan

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From all of the rules that I've seen only the SB and BB can chop, DB to SB/BB can't chop. The ONLY chop that is allowed is SB AND BB ONLY. And ONLY in cash games the only place a chop applies in a tournament is the final table chop which ends the game.

In your scenario under the rules which I am aware of you suggested an illegal chop twice over, no chopping in tournament play and no DB to SB chopping allowed. If I was the dealer or house master I wouldn't have allowed the chop in the first place, only SB to BB, if it were tournament style play then no chop at all.

Once you made your ruling, you have to live with it, you guys did fine except I would make it clear next time about chopping rules and not allow that kind of thing to happen again.
 
dj11

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I'm with BBB. I think she is too kind tho, I would have made sure I was smoking, and using their floor as the ashtray, and made extra sure to knock over at least one bottle of beer.
 
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Saint

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I am the guy who was hosting the game. Just to give you some background, I've been running a weekly friendly game for the past year and a bit. There have been minor disputes in the past, but have almost always been covered by the known rules. We're very good about enforcing the rules.

In this paticular situation, not knowing what the proper rules were, taking into account that it is a friendly game, and that the people who chopped the pot did it not knowing it was illegal in a tourney, we handled it as follows:

- We gave each player back the hand they had at the time of the muck (9-9 v. A-7 unsuited), and dealt from a fresh deck the hand as if they gone all in. (A-7 caught an Ace to win).

My only issue with the situation was that the guy who lost (9-9) went ape shit and threatening never to come back and that we're a bunch of babies etc etc. I have never seen someone get so angry over a situation THEY caused. He threatened to not come back, etc etc (not that I care).

I only did what I felt to the most fair to the table. Sure we could have chopped the pot, but then someone would have not gone out, majorly affecting the game.

Comments?
 
Jack Daniels

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If you mean how should it have been handled once the deck had been shuffled the simple answer is that all players who had any chips in that pot should get back their chips as though the hand never took place
^^^ based on the screw up of allowing the chop to start with, this is what should have then happened ^^^
 
dj11

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Saint, Welcome to CC. And thank you for adding your take of that situation.

We don't know what the original poster (Knurl) had in that hand, he did not tell us, but really it hardly matters.

Personally I think you almost got it right. As was said above, any player who entered that round of the betting should have had his money returned. So Knurl should have had his investment returned as well.

That one of those involved was forced to leave when he lost was some poetic poker justice, but still sits wrong. And still smacks of collusion.

This is not our average topical thread btw.

Again, Welcome to CC
 
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Saint

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Thank you!

Do you think I should return the $20.00 to each of the losing players (Costing me effectively nothing because I came in 2nd in the tourney for a profit of $60, so I'd still be $20 ahead on the day, and everybody might walk away happier).

?
 
dj11

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No. Some might have folded before the all in, they clearly have no stake in that hand. Knurls point, was his decision was based on something that might be construed as colusion.

The more I think about it, the closer I am coming to agreeing with what you did. Those 2 put their tourney lives at stake on that hand, and one of them should die. As one did.
(I am thinking this through as I type)
I think now that perhaps yes, yours was perhaps the best action. Knurl folded for whatever reason, and the 2 possible coluders had to colide. This seems that it remedies the colusion aspect of the hand, and sort of stuffs it back in the face of one of the possible coluders.
 
MrDaMan

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LOL I still don't see any "overt" dishonesty in either story, the guy with 9/9 got beat and didn't like the out come. Rasberries!

Just from what I've read from both Knurll and Saint the only thing anyone is guilty of is running a home game without much "real time casino experiance".

In fact it speaks well of you guys to come in to a forum of knowledgeable players and expose this event in your home game for scrutiny.

Saint your the game/house master from what you've learned since the event it's up to you on how to ultimately resolve this, for your conscience and your reputation.

I personally make it known before all my home games of which I am the game master, that input is welcome and listened too, but as game master the final decision is mine and mine alone. That once I've ruled, it's over we can go on with the games or if you think I'm unfair you can leave.

Saint I think you did well under the circumstances which I've read here, I think I would leave it alone as is. Maybe apologize to all concerned because of your lack of rules knowledge and pledge ro tun a tighter game as you become more experianced in the nuances of poker rules. But like a sports game when the refferee makes a final decision, it's over. Instant or delayed replays are not an option, at least not under these circumstances anyway.

Just keep your games honest, try and get a better knowledge base on the rules, (hard to do without a lot of real time casino experiance) and continue to run and enjoy your home games.

BTW it does help to go over some basic rules before EVERY game even if they are regulars, freinds and aquaintances or someone new. Do this BEFORE the start of EVERY session establish your self as the game master and final arbiter of any unforseen contriversies. Things will go al lot smoother.

My games run smooth, allthough there have been a couple of grouchy rulings, I ususlly say something like sorry you didn't like my decision. You have the choice to leave or stay, that decision is yours. After a few hands it is usually forgotten.

Good Luck!
 
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Saint

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Is there an online rulebook that everybody pretty much agrees are "The Rules" that I can read?
 
Jack Daniels

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Is there an online rulebook that everybody pretty much agrees are "The Rules" that I can read?
Yes, see Robert's Rules of Poker. This is typically considered the standard by poker players, tournament directors, etc. I keep a couple copies on hand at every game. Additionally, any house rules in effect are printed in large font, posted, and pointed out prior to any play.
 
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K

knurll

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Just for the record, I'd like it to be known that I had A4 offsuit.
The button who went all in is known as a loose player and had been making frequent all ins for the previous 15 minutes. I was going to call his all in with my A4 if it was only heads up seeing as I would have been last to act and I already had a fair number of my chips in the pot.

However, once the SB called (a tight player) I figured I wasn't good 3-way and since someone should be going out anyways, I folded.
In other words, I only folded after TWO players in front of me went all in.


I looked around online at Robert's poker rules. This seems to be a very unique case where there is no specific resolution. But I am content with the way the situation was handled by Saint. As I told him, the only other satisfactory resolution would be that everyone gets their chips back and the 2 players that acted illegally would be forced to sit out for 10 minutes - which in a short handed game and large blinds, would have crippled them anyways. At least this way one of them still had a chance.
 
shinedown.45

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I had thought chops were not allowed in cash game, just tourneys, and in tourneys it was my understanding that chops were allowed only on the final table or final 3-4 players and the game ended when the chop is announced and done with.
Am I wrong in believing this?
 
MrDaMan

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Chop
1) Splitting a pot on the showdown with an equal hand,
or in High-Low Split games where the high hand splits the pot with the low hand
2) Chopping the Blinds: agreement between the two players in the blind positions
to take their blinds back anytime no one else enters the pot
(not possible in tournaments, and sometimes prohibited in ring games by casinos)
Source

And yes the final table when a deal is made to split the winning is also called chopping. Isn't english wonderful
 
Mojomax747

Mojomax747

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From the way i have read the whole thing one guy ( db ) is saying to another guy ( sb ) lets not bother playing this hand now that bb has folded. Lets just split/chop his bb and pat each other on the back that we dont have to risk our tourney live now that he has folded, lets just reward each other from his bb stake. If this is the case then there is only one conclusion and that is that they were both very wrong and it should never have even been mentioned. I think too that the reason its not in roberts rule but is because its a situation that would never happen, until now.
 
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bill118911

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this happened to us before and we made a rule up stating the chips stayed in the pot for the next hand because both players mucked there cards so both hands are considered dead so the chips remain alive for the next hand thats one way to stop all the bullshit
 
JenksVIP

JenksVIP

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Holy crap that is crazy. I don't know what i would do I guess I would just get my money back. and replay the hand
 
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knurll

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Mojomax747, I couldn't agree with you more on that last statement!!
 
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