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buckster436
Cardschat Hall of Famer - RIP Buck
Silver Level
you have to play your cards and sometimes take chances THATS HOW TO WIN TOURNEYS if your on the short stack u have to play about anything thats where the luck comes in, if youve got plenty of chips you can sit back and wait for good cards>>but good cards dont always win<< i would say 60>>40 60% skill and 40% luck>> without luck you cant win everyone needs the luck along with the skill>>.buckster436:elefant:
twizzybop
Legend
Silver Level
Yet being short stacked, just limping in won't get you to far anyway. Constantly calling with the shortstacked. You may get lucky but then again your chipping away at your own stack. That is where you have to pick a spot, go all-in, get lucky and double or even possible triple up.
Four Dogs
Legend
Silver Level
Luck? Winning or losing 2 out 3 hands is luck. Winning or losing 60 out of 100 is skill or lack of it. There's a good article I found someplace on the web titled "Sklansky Ate My Brain". Look it up. Its a riot. The author states that due to strict adherence to the Sklansky starting hands, he never got any action. Only about 2 out of 10 hands would qualify and because he was recognized as a tight player, everyone would back off. I don't know how much of that applies to online play where nobody pays attention to anything but there own hole cards.
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colin_147
Visionary
Silver Level
You just have to go on your instincts.
I was playing in a sit and go yesterday. 10 seat table, 2 of us left. He has 12,000 chips, me 2,000. So he figures " I can call every hand, grab a few lucky flops and get rid of this guy....well it didnt work cos calling every hand cost him nearly all his chips and I busted him within 10 minutes.
The best time to limp in is when you have suited cards or at least one picture.
Also, the closer you are to the right of the button, thats the best time to make a judgement because you can see if the players are folding, calling or raising.
Good luck
I was playing in a sit and go yesterday. 10 seat table, 2 of us left. He has 12,000 chips, me 2,000. So he figures " I can call every hand, grab a few lucky flops and get rid of this guy....well it didnt work cos calling every hand cost him nearly all his chips and I busted him within 10 minutes.
The best time to limp in is when you have suited cards or at least one picture.
Also, the closer you are to the right of the button, thats the best time to make a judgement because you can see if the players are folding, calling or raising.
Good luck
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nymetsking
Rising Star
Bronze Level
90% Luck!!!! LMFAO!!! If you think the game is 90% luck, my guess is you rather be the one flopping a fullhouse with a 2 7 o/s (off of the blinds) than the one sitting there with the 2 7 your hand already in the muck? Let's face it, if you're playing the 2 7 praying for luck, you're not going to be around long enough to see a K 10, let along know how to use it.
lightning36
Visionary
Silver Level
It's amazing how the lack of caring can sometimes work. Get me in a tourney where I don't care if I go out or not and I'll take risks ... which are ofttimes rewarded. Some luck is always involved, but careful observation of the people at your table, plus instincts help you to get further. On the other hand, I was in a private tourney last night, played conservatively, blasted away when I had good cards, and took 4th place. If I was more patient at the end, I might have nudged another place or so higher.
IrishDave
A Member
Silver Level
You have to play your cards and your instincts. I find myself doing much better when I focus on this rather than my bankroll. Whenever I'm concerned with making money - I don't. Ever notice how much better the cards appear to be when you've got a big stack? Even that J-To looks playable - which it is depending on the table and the position. I have won far more pots with connectors or suited cards than I have with pocket pairs. I even get to loose sometimes but it's all part of the game - change up now and again and don't be predictable.
Was playing the .25/.50 limit games at UB about 4 nights in a row and saw the same player at the tables every night. This fella would ONLY play AA or KK and needless to say he always left with less money than he came with...
Was playing the .25/.50 limit games at UB about 4 nights in a row and saw the same player at the tables every night. This fella would ONLY play AA or KK and needless to say he always left with less money than he came with...
diabloblanco
Legend
Silver Level
In any one session it can be 100% luck, but over time its almost 100% skill. You have got to be joking with the 90% luck sentence. If not, I would love to be at a table full of people with that same mantra. Any decent player that has the ability to tighten and loosen up at will, will kill a table full of card chasers any day. You may river a few times with some crappy cards, but the real poker player is going to spot your "its all luck, so ill play anything" game plan, tighten up, then wait for an opportune moment and bust you out. How do you think anyone wins against the maniacs online in the low-limit games?
Arjonius
Legend
Silver Level
Even a single session is rarely going to be 100% luck. To cite only a few examples, there's skill in things like
- getting into pots you're favored to win, even if you ultimately lose because you're out-drawn,
- betting to gain information about your opponents' hands instead of just playing your own,
- betting so you win more chips with your winning hands and lose more with your losing ones,
- gauging when and how often to risk your tournament life,
- getting reads on your opponents so you can do all of the above better.
- getting into pots you're favored to win, even if you ultimately lose because you're out-drawn,
- betting to gain information about your opponents' hands instead of just playing your own,
- betting so you win more chips with your winning hands and lose more with your losing ones,
- gauging when and how often to risk your tournament life,
- getting reads on your opponents so you can do all of the above better.
diabloblanco
Legend
Silver Level
I agree, the 100% luck short term, and 100% skill long term is basically a quick statement to describe the nature of the game. It never really 100% luck, but it is possible for a far inferior player to beat a great player (a pro even) in a single match, but that same matchup 100 times will heavily favor the experienced player over the donkey.
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nymetsking
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Arjonius said:
HUH? OK, I'm baffled there. Doesn't hurt to lose chips on semi-purpose (like to get reads, present that you will bluff, etc), but why would you want to lose more chips on a losing hand? The idea is to look like you could be a loose cannon, not actually be one. How yoyoing from short stack to big stack to short stack is a good strategy I have no idea.
tazztaz
Rock Star
Silver Level
Well said I have done just the same thing and finished in the top 2 many times playing that way early (not careing and willing to take risk) on the other side of the coin, some games I realy needed to not lose and needed a place playing to tight and geting blinded out or short stacked and pushed into taking some big risk. I made it a point to add these two situations up and trying to learn from the both! I think it is one of the most important thing I have learned from online play especialy in multi seat tourneys;. Poker is more about situations than cards 80 percent of the time.
lightning36 said:
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rk92559
Enthusiast
Silver Level
100 percent skill?? Thats absurd. Luck plays a bigger part than any "skillful" player wants to admit. Lets say you have AA, You make large raise, not to large now, because with your skill you don't want to run everyone off. You get one caller,the flop comes 2JK...he checks you bet large,..he folds. You are lucky he didn't flop a set of Js, or a set of Ks, or KJ...or worse, a set of 2s. Poker is about who makes the least amount of mistakes, plays the hands to the best of thier advantage, odds, outs etc...chip management, bluffing, reading and instinct. But every call, every flop...and every all in, especially pre flop, depends on luck!! You think that Gus hansen calling an all in with KJo, against KQ suited and hitting a J on a cold board to win is because of his skill?? it takes skill to be a good player, but luck plays a huge part in every hand, Iwould conservitively say 50/50.
IrishDave
A Member
Silver Level
Yes luck certainly plays a large part but not as much as you suggest. By reading a table correctly you can turn any cards into winners. If we were playing 5 or 7 card showdown I would agree; however, skill makes the difference. Look at Moneymaker, very lucky in 2003 - has been a bust since. Look at Raymer, won last year and finished 13th this year - this is luck vs skill respectively.
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rk92559
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I absolutely agree, the moneymaker thing was crap. He should have been gone at least 4 times calling so far behind in hands and rivering. Raymer can read a table, has the online aggression. But he hasn't done anything until now either. They both look lost when playing at a table with the older pros.Good player, but look at the logs, and last years replays. When he hit his flush against Matasau, That was lucky, it hit diamond, but could have been anoter suit just as well. Thats lucky. In every good hand, that good players play, there is always some luck, thats why its gambling, and cards.
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Scotty125
Rising Star
Bronze Level
I often find myself thinking that the amount of skill you need in Holdem is much smaller than the amount of luck that is required, but when I actually contemplate the accuracy of that assumption, I realize that luck accounts for about 20% of the hands I win. Some people, I'm sure, rely on luck a lot more than that, but they are the type that will always lose in the end. When I find myself doubting that my skills can outmatch somebody's blind luck, I start playing Omaha hi/lo. Give it a try.
HoldemChamp
Rock Star
Silver Level
I have to disagree with the point made with out guts you won't get very far.
I have made it deep into the money having only played a few hands. Heck I have made it to the final table with maybe only 4-6 hands in a tourney.
I played ultra tight the entire time.
So, you can get somewhere playing with out taking to many risks.
That being said. I don't believe you can get to first without taking chances. You definitely have to risk to come out the winner.
I have made it deep into the money having only played a few hands. Heck I have made it to the final table with maybe only 4-6 hands in a tourney.
I played ultra tight the entire time.
So, you can get somewhere playing with out taking to many risks.
That being said. I don't believe you can get to first without taking chances. You definitely have to risk to come out the winner.
bubbasbestbabe
Suckout Queen
Silver Level
You know I'm getting a kick out of reading these posts.:rofl: Luck has apart to play with this game. Maybe not as large as some represents but a big part of it. Otherwise why would we have such a big section in the posts of bad beats and all the bitching about losing with AA.:icon_flow
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