Should the Poker Community Forgive Chris Ferguson?

[MediaBLITZ]

I doubt there was a conspiracy, rather these were business people looking for loopholes and ways to maintain their online poker business (and probably sweating knowing their funds should have been better separated for players and couldn't just stop operations ). People see "conspiracy" and "illegal" and suddenly assume that all laws are valid and fair and thus anything illegally done must mean the person is a bad person doing bad things. What were they supposed to do, just shutter FTP? How many "investors" and "hedge fund" managers do dodgy and perhaps illegal accounting and use shady loopholes to do their "business." This wasn't about poker. Sites STILL do this to get around the outdated wire transfer act to keep their business viable, not necessairly to launder money or defraud banks.

Just an opinion, but from what I have read it is pretty clear that Bitar and Burtnick did indeed conspire (another word for a plot or collusion) to break the law in order to keep the money flowing. That's not using a loophole. Burtnick flat out said he knew he was breaking the law. Him and Bitar set up to fake companies to launder the money and fabricated credit cards transactions. It is clear they knew it was money laundering and bank fraud. While they both pled guilty they never at anytime implicated Lederer or Ferguson. What I would like to know is if they were even asked. But it goes down in the DOJ record as Bitar and Burtnick being the lawbreakers and Lederer and Ferguson as the ignorant fools.
Yeah I get it - it was either that or shut down - and yeah, it does not necessarily make them evil - but it sure makes them incredibly fallible - much like myself.

Amazing it's perfectly legal an ok to go to your bank, take out money and take it to a casino and play and for casinos to accept it, but go online with your bank card and suddenly you're part of an assumed fraud.

Beautiful analogy here!

 

[peterajax]

This is such an important variable. People probably say "see Burtnick and Bitar were doing illegal money transfers, they're criminals." But context is important here. I doubt there was a conspiracy, rather these were business people looking for loopholes and ways to maintain their online poker business (and probably sweating knowing their funds should have been better separated for players and couldn't just stop operations ). People see "conspiracy" and "illegal" and suddenly assume that all laws are valid and fair and thus anything illegally done must mean the person is a bad person doing bad things. What were they supposed to do, just shutter FTP? How many "investors" and "hedge fund" managers do dodgy and perhaps illegal accounting and use shady loopholes to do their "business." This wasn't about poker. Sites STILL do this to get around the outdated wire transfer act to keep their business viable, not necessairly to launder money or defraud banks. Amazing it's perfectly legal an ok to go to your bank, take out money and take it to a casino and play and for casinos to accept it, but go online with your bank card and suddenly you're part of an assumed fraud.

Well how about this for context: where was all the money that supposed?/had? to be in the ft accounts gone too on black friday?
Those two[Burtnick and Bitar] where just thiefs plain and simple because in sep 2011 they where accused of taking 444 million!!!! out of the company to be paid to them and others[ferguson and lederer where 2 of them] and that may well be just a portion of the real amount? wel i for one believe so and it is sure that a big?/all? [portion] of that money was players money.
So context or not these 4 where completely[Burtnick and Bitar?]/or partially[ferguson and lederer] aware where that money came from, not a doubt in my mind reading/hearing/seeing al those articles/videos/news from the doj and others involved in the case and ft.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

they where accused of taking 444 million!!!! out of the company to be paid to them and others[ferguson and lederer where 2 of them] and that may well be just a portion of the real amount? wel i for one believe so and it is sure that a big?/all? [portion] of that money was players money.
So context or not these 4 where completely[Burtnick and Bitar?]/or partially[ferguson and lederer] aware where that money came from, not a doubt in my mind reading/hearing/seeing al those articles/videos/news from the doj and others involved in the case and ft.

The DOJ findings actually concluded that Lederer did NOT know (until April 15th) and Ferguson never knew.

"paid to them and others[ferguson and lederer where 2 of them]" - you do not mention who the 'others' were. Seems a lot of people are not aware of who the others were. Yes $440 million was the total figure for disbursements (and, yes, players money) handed out by Ray Bitar to board members (as bonuses), but only $137 million of that is accounted for between Bitar, Lederer, Ferguson and Rafe Furst - where did the rest go? We know Phil Ivey got a chunk. It is not unreasonable to question and look at others on the FTP "Team" like, John Juanda, Jennifer Harmon, Phil Gordon, Erick Lindgren, Erik Seidel, Andy Bloch, Make Matusow, Gus Hansen, Allen Cunningham, or Patrick Antonius. I am not saying any of them knew what was really going on any more than Ferguson or Lederer did, but it seems with $300 million still unaccounted for this list is the first place to look. A lot of those guys saw the trouble coming and quickly separated themselves leaving others holding the bag. Again I was in a similar situation (see previous post) while people in our enterprise ran way (with bags of money) and I stayed trying to salvage what I thought was still a viable operation only to have the Attorney General calling.

And BTW, Ferguson was on record (WAY before Black Friday) as saying he was against the proposed disbursements/bonuses as he felt it would weaken the company. YA THINK!?!?

 

[peterajax]

The DOJ findings actually concluded that Lederer did NOT know (until April 15th) and Ferguson never knew.

"paid to them and others[ferguson and lederer where 2 of them]" - you do not mention who the 'others' were. Seems a lot of people are not aware of who the others were. Yes $440 million was the total figure for disbursements (and, yes, players money) handed out by Ray Bitar to board members (as bonuses), but only $137 million of that is accounted for between Bitar, Lederer, Ferguson and Rafe Furst - where did the rest go? We know Phil Ivey got a chunk. It is not unreasonable to question and look at others on the FTP "Team" like, John Juanda, Jennifer Harmon, Phil Gordon, Erick Lindgren, Erik Seidel, Andy Bloch, Make Matusow, Gus Hansen, Allen Cunningham, or Patrick Antonius. I am not saying any of them knew what was really going on any more than Ferguson or Lederer did, but it seems with $300 million still unaccounted for this list is the first place to look. A lot of those guys saw the trouble coming and quickly separated themselves leaving others holding the bag. Again I was in a similar situation (see previous post) while people in our enterprise ran way (with bags of money) and I stayed trying to salvage what I thought was still a viable operation only to have the Attorney General calling.

And BTW, Ferguson was on record (WAY before Black Friday) as saying he was against the proposed disbursements/bonuses as he felt it would weaken the company. YA THINK!?!?

Well the others where: quote from indictment "pay out $444 million to themselves and other owners" themselves being bittar and ruft.

And come on they knew nothing!!!! really! they where [fer en led i mean] company directors just like bitar and ruft and lederer was one of the founders of the company that owned ft and OK ruft and bitar where the ones that runned the company[the day to day so to say] but after it all came out how much money they got payed many many people under who successful business people couldn't believe the amounts they had received and that was what could be proven and was in the books who anybody knew where not right, to say the least.


And as i said before they where both excellent with numbers, then i ask myself how come they never suspected anything? what where they doing or looking at in all those meetings? they may not be big business man as such but come on there must! have been rumor/gossip going on inside the full tilt offices for sure[and many personal admitted that],
And fer and led just kept getting million after million and saw and/or suspected/didn't do anything? yea right!.

And hey there are and have been told many story's/gossip/rumors/statements or what not about these 2 and i don't know witch are true or partially true or are lies/half lies and the same of what i wrote here in this post.
But that fer and led did not known/know anything about what was going wrong and who was doing it, no way that is true they knew some things or all or even where in on it is not impossible.
The facts are they took the money and knowing what they knew/know did nothing or warned/reported nothing to no-one, but that they knew nothing is impossible imo.
And as i said this is my personal opinion/look of this situation, but i have read/seen/heard a lot about these 2 because i always thought chris was a sympathetic guy and came over as a nice/good guy and i thought the opposite of lederer so i wanted to form my own opinion and i did.

 

[jaymfc]

some of you remember this parody I did 5 years ago and many of
you were not members yet . but one of the things to note if you watch
is at the end I listed all the teams full tilt sponsored. they helped a lot of
people just saying

https://youtu.be/IHVu1P-tEhI

 

[Gump877]

I wouldnt forgive because he vanished after BF. I'm sure that what his attorney told him to do. Who ever knew about the phantom deposits should be in jail.

 

[MMarshall89]

So, just reading this post a lot of light has been shed on this topic. At first I thought it was just Ferg and Lederer responsible for the stealing of millions of players dollars from FT. But thanks to you all I now know that is not entirely accurate. But, none less it would seem(to me) that both Ferg and Lederer knew of this in some way, shape, or form. why else would they "disappear" from the poker scene for several years? They did admit to some wrong doing and show quilt in their actions. I'm curious if some of the other pro's associated with FT like Ivy, Hanson, Juanda, etc where also aware but did nothing? I don't see them doing such a thing but then again we all we're surprised to know both Ferg and Lederer had some knowledge of this but did nothing to save the players? Where they already in too deep when they first accepted their bonuses of the stolen money. I don't know all the facts but seems to me like they acted guilty and tried to hide themselves from the fact for as long as they could before having to apologize to get back in the poker scene. I don't think we should ban them from playing and I guess we should forgive them because everybody deserves a 2nd chance, I do frown upon them and cheaters alike, but we shall defiantly never forget so it never happens again.

 

[JZarate]

The return of Chris

Do you guys think Chris Ferguson should talk about what happened behind the scenes with full tilt?

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Do you guys think Chris Ferguson should talk about what happened behind the scenes with full tilt?

I would love to hear it, but I think that is a no win scenario for him so I'm sure he'll keep his mouth shut outside of a maybe/someday apology.

 

[AATwoPairAA]

To Him That is Without Sin, Let him cast the first stone.

We have all committed sins. I know that God forgives me of my sins and I pray the people I sin against forgive me also.

I find myself blaming him and the rest of the Full Tilt crew for the state of poker in the USA today. However, I cannot expect forgiveness of my sins if I am not willing to give it to others.

Let him play.

 

[madisonsdad]

To Him That is Without Sin, Let him cast the first stone.

We have all committed sins. I know that God forgives me of my sins and I pray the people I sin against forgive me also.

I find myself blaming him and the rest of the Full Tilt crew for the state of poker in the USA today. However, I cannot expect forgiveness of my sins if I am not willing to give it to others.

Let him play.

"MediaBlitz-I would love to hear it, but I think that is a no win scenario for him so I'm sure he'll keep his mouth shut outside of a maybe/someday apology."

Well Written statements throughout this thread, MediaBlitz and Quick did an awesome job of highlighting the facts, and AATwoPairAA you stole the line I was going to use

In the pokernews July 1st article five thoughts written by Marty Derbyshire I quote "The last time we did speak he said there was a story that's not being told, and he was still considering going public with it. It has been nothing but silence since then."

I was a Chris Ferguson Fan prior to black Friday, and find myself a fan still today(and glad he's back playing) if for any other reason the class/ professionalism he displays, and maybe it's that same level of class/professionalism and respect that keeps him from making a statement, that in doing so would probably over shadow and take away from the wsop event.Maybe in the end he realizes what most in the poker community tend to forget that the game and it's success is more important, than any one individual who plays the game.

 

[franbx3]

well i dont know what happen with this guy .. ima go to read some articles then i come back ;D

 

[CHILLI2U]

Absolutely not, he has done nothing to make amends or even show any type of decency as person a lot of players admired. Adults know right from wrong it dosent matter who you think you are. Forgiveness is earned.

 

[Senneville]

Agree 100% with everythng that MediaBlitz has posted in this thread!

Also it seems many aren't aware that FTP wasn't able to process ALOT of the US players deposits prior to Black Friday (to the tune of 100's of millions) and so many US players were essentially freerolling. I'd surmise that Bitar not wanting to take responsibility &/or to take the wheels off the bus, was likely hoping it'd be different... soon! (and then thinking that again... & again).

Agree. I presume people who lost a lot of money will shake is hand and will say " he thanks for the advise"

 

[moosey2020]

Blood must have blood. That is our way of life since the born of life.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Blood must have blood. That is our way of life since the born of life.

Boy, ain't that the truth. I just find it amazing how many people there are who think they know how multi-million dollar companies are run. That everyone is supposed to know exactly what is going on. I work for a guy who owns several big companies and have my fingers in all sorts of pies. One particular company has a CEO who has NEVER, EVER been to the offices where the day to day operations actually take place. He thinks he knows what is going on, but I can assure you he would be shocked and very much dismayed if he ever showed up and asked any questions. This is kind of why I don't have a hard time believing Lederer and Ferguson were clueless. Like I said before, they were busy playing tournaments and doing television and commercials. They were not involved in day to day operations. Yes, I think it is legitimate to say, "they should have known", but I have little doubts that while they were focused on the right hand, the left hand was bringing down the empire.

 

[TulasMoreno]

Hell never talk about what really happened with full tilt