Should the Poker Community Forgive Chris Ferguson?

[MediaBLITZ]

I saw Lederer had showed up to an event so the fact that Ferguson has shown up too seems to suggest they must both be in clear contact still... They shouldn't be allowed to play.

Wait, you have an issue with them being in contact with each other? Not that them showing up where every other poker pro on the planet is gathering proves that, but no one else will talk to them, why shouldn't/wouldn't they hang out with each other?

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Whats everybody thoughts on this? he showed up and was asked if he was going to say anything or apologize and he said he was there just to play poker

That's pretty crappy that he won't express something about it. At least Lederer did (for 3 1/2 hours) - don't understand why Jesus won't - although I'm sure he understands all the witch hunters out there could care less and are just waiting to pounce on anything he would say like they did to Lederer.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Let's see what Negreanu says about banning Ferguson and Lederer:

(from his blog)

Chris Ferguson: At this point, it appears that Chris Ferguson’s role in the demise of FTP was that of a board member. Once Black Friday hit, he has completely disappeared. No statement, no sight of the man in almost four years since that dreaded day. Based on what I’ve gathered, he was essentially MIA when FTP was trying to find a buyer so they could pay back the players. That’s been confirmed to me by several sources. He essentially hid under the covers hoping it would all just go away.
So, does his behavior and lack of willingness to stand responsible for his role in the crash of FTP warrant a wsop ban? No, I don’t think so. I’m not pleased by how he handled things, disappearing just never seems like the most responsible choice, but to my knowledge Chris has never cheated anyone at the poker table.

Howard Lederer: As many of you likely know I’ve been very critical of Howard and his handling of the FTP mess that occurred a few years ago. There is no question, that he, the other board members, as well as the owners were all at fault for FTP not being able to pay back it’s players after Black Friday.

Do I think it was a ponzi scheme? That’s an absurd notion. Do I think it was gross negligence by management? Absolutely. A lack of oversight allowed for Ray Bitar to run the company into the ground. I’ve heard from various sources that not only was Ray in over his head, he was flat out lying to the other owners about the financial status of the company.

Howard, for many years was an integral part of operations at FTP before stepping down at some point before Black Friday. Most people assumed he was still running things, and Howard certainly played the part of the “guy behind the guy” if you will.
Once the news broke that FTP was insolvent, based on sources I’ve spoken to, Howard spent every day trying to find a way to get the players paid. Many of the owners didn’t agree with the direction Howard wanted to take the company, but it seemed to be a consensus that Howard’s main purpose and motivation was to get the players paid.

In come pokerstars to save the day, and players have been made whole as far as I’m aware. PokerStars bought FTP and paid back all the outstanding debts. So at this point, while you can like or dislike Howard Lederer as a person- that is your choice, of course, I think it’s clear that he should have every right to play in WSOP events. Aside from players having been paid now, to my knowledge he has never cheated at poker, nor have there ever been rumors about him doing so.

AND Negreanu regarding Lederer's apology:
“The choice to accept his apology is a personal one,” says Negreanu. “For what its worth, I personally believe the apology to be genuine.”

**** you Daniel - you sure didn't think it was a personal choice as to what other's should think about Howard and Chris when you were crucifying them in your rants.

 

[jre1106]

I read the article and by no means do i agree with what he did i do believ in him playing poker again. Will i play for a poker site that he is part owner no. Will i sit and play at a table he is playing at of course ans treat him like a human being of course. I think its good he is playing again. The man is a good poker player but a bad business man.

 

[DinkDonk]

No Forgiveness For Howard Lederer & Chris Ferguson

One of the biggest stories (if not the biggest story) of this year’s WSOP has been the return of Howard Lederer and Chris “Jesus” Ferguson after a six year absence. They both received chilly receptions upon their return; one player went up to Ferguson with his phone recording the incident and told him to “Go !@#$ yourself”.

Lederer issued an apology through Daniel Negreanu’s blog but it’s increasingly clear five years after “Black Friday” it’s apparent the majority of the poker community are having a hard time forgiving Lederer and Ferguson for their roles in the Full Tilt fiasco, and with good reason. It has taken Lederer five years to apologize and finally admit blame for his role in the downfall of FTP.

What took so long? Why, after 18 months of silence in 2012 while the poker world was waiting for answers on what’s the status with their funds, did he spend over 7 hours either lying or deflecting blame? (Check out An Oral History of the Lederer files by Quad Jacks which was the poker community’s response on the Lederer interviews). Ferguson has yet to issue any kind of apology. The fact that he has totally kept silent shows you what he thinks of the poker community. What about the grinders who trusted FTP to keep their money safe and needed the money to build their bankroll and survive. Don’t they deserve an apology?

Lederer’s motives for issuing the apology when he did is clearly returning to the poker community with little backlash, but the fact it has taken five years for him to issue the apology after hiding away post Black Friday when his customers wanted answers on why the company failed, their customers who had millions of dollars collectively locked away in the site and wanted to know when they were going to see their funds.

Obviously (and especially in Ferguson’s case) they have little to no remorse, so why should we as collective show any sympathy for their actions that led them to being pariahs?

 

[freestocks]

Black Friday was a run on the bank. If Citibank or Bank of America were shut down like Full Tilt was, there would not be enough money to pay accounts.

 

[jaymfc]

Black Friday was a run on the bank. If Citibank or Bank of America were shut down like Full Tilt was, there would not be enough money to pay accounts.

that's my thoughts too, they would still be going strong and paying out
as well as possible with the payment processor troubles, but of course, they could not pay everyone at once.
but they aren't a bank and should have kept our money in a separate account. and my problem with Chris is why not
give an explanation and then not care what people thought .instead of starting out that way.
and then after hiding for five years to think you can come back with no explanation is ludicrous.
I'm mad because he's my doppelganger and I spent $600 on my look-alike stuff and then couldn't show my face
anywhere with it after the 2010 WSOP. I got all my avatar pics there and took thousands of pics with fans,
I got love and respect then but would be afraid for my life after black Friday.

 

[dejan85]

cris is legend.....one of gratest manager....

 

[MediaBLITZ]

...one player went up to Ferguson with his phone recording the incident and told him to “Go !@#$ yourself”.
CLASS MOVE

It has taken Lederer five years to apologize and finally admit blame for his role in the downfall of FTP.
NOT TRUE - HE APOLOGIZED IN HIS 2012 INTERVIEW. IF YOU HAD WATCHED IT YOU WOULD KNOW THAT.

...did he spend over 7 hours either lying or deflecting blame? (Check out An Oral History of the Lederer files by Quad Jacks which was the poker community’s response on the Lederer interviews).
BY ALL MEANS - DON'T ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THE ACTUAL INTERVIEW AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND WHEN SOMEONE ELSE IS SO EAGER TO TELL YOU WHAT TO THINK AND FEEL ABOUT IT.

Ferguson has yet to issue any kind of apology. The fact that he has totally kept silent shows you what he thinks of the poker community. What about the grinders who trusted FTP to keep their money safe and needed the money to build their bankroll and survive. Don’t they deserve an apology?
YES THEY DO! NOT SURE WHY HE HASN'T BUT AFTER SEEING THE WAY HOWARD HAS BEEN CRUCIFIED AFTER TALKING I'M PRETTY SURE HE HAS TO FIGURE IT WOULD BE POINTLESS, DON'T YOU THINK?

Lederer’s motives for issuing the apology when he did is clearly returning to the poker community with little backlash, but the fact it has taken five years for him to issue the apology
AGAIN, IF YOU ACTUALLY WATCHED HIS FULL INTERVIEW YOU WOULD KNOW HE APOLOGIZED THEN. NO ONE WANTED TO HEAR IT SO HE APOLOGIZED AGAIN RECENTLY - GOOD MOVE ON HIS PART.

after hiding away post Black Friday when his customers wanted answers on why the company failed,
HOWARD ADDRESSED THIS AT LENGTH IN HIS INTERVIEW - BUT PEOPLE DIDN'T REALLY WANT THE TRUTH AS MUCH AS THEY WANTED BLOOD.

their customers who had millions of dollars collectively locked away in the site and wanted to know when they were going to see their funds.
ACTUALLY THAT WAS NOT THE CASE - RAY BITAR HAD SPENT IT.

Obviously (and especially in Ferguson’s case) they have little to no remorse, so why should we as collective show any sympathy for their actions that led them to being pariahs?
DOES IT MATTER THAT NEGREANU FINDS LEDERER'S APOLOGY TO BE SINCERE AND GENUINE. I MEAN HE WAS ONE OF HIS BIGGEST CRITICS.

SORRY FOR ALL CAPS

 

[jwlaw35]

let he without sin

I guess I would have to be in his shoes.. Decisions are sometimes out of your control. And sometime we think we would do the right thing if confronted with the same situation. I am not a friend of his so I guess my forgiveness is not what he is needing.. the question is can he forgive himself?

 

[joe cassidy]

Unforgivable

Chris Ferguson did not apologize or attempt to redeem himself after 4 YEARS of being hidden. He does not seem to own up to his mistakes. There was no remorse in his voice. He should not be forgiven. Hiding for 4 years makes him guilty. That includes Howard Lederer. Stealing from people for your gain, that is ashamed. I commend Tom Dwan, who was somewhat part of the team of full tilt poker representives, for trying to help with the situation as he actually gave $1 million dollars after Black Friday in order to help some of the players. Chris Ferguson should be looked down upon from now on until he does something meaningful to contribute to the players of Full Tilt Poker. Shame on him.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Agree 100% with everythng that MediaBlitz has posted in this thread!

Also it seems many aren't aware that FTP wasn't able to process ALOT of the US players deposits prior to Black Friday (to the tune of 100's of millions) and so many US players were essentially freerolling. I'd surmise that Bitar not wanting to take responsibility &/or to take the wheels off the bus, was likely hoping it'd be different... soon! (and then thinking that again... & again).

 

[peterajax]

I saw Lederer had showed up to an event so the fact that Ferguson has shown up too seems to suggest they must both be in clear contact still... They shouldn't be allowed to play.

Who else do you think wanted too play with them in the last 5 years???? LOL
All they had was each other or anonymous on the internet right?

 

[TIM BANKER JR]

wherever theres money online theres a thief just part of life lol

 

[fletchdad]

Subbing....

 

[quick]

I think both Ferguson and Lederer have a right to continue to play poker. They shouldn't be banned from poker. Forgiveness is trickier but I think given how much time has passed and how things have changed, they do at least deserve to be considered for forgiveness.

Put yourself in their shoes. You make a living playing a game you love. Then you have a chance to start a company that helps other players play the game, you get paid to promote the game, and suddenly you're a poker god raking in millions from a new website. People look up to you, love you, trust you. Millions of dollars are flowing into your bank accounts letting you not only live comfortably but also play your favorite games anytime, anywhere with little to no concern.

You know little about business and hire people you assume are doing a good job managing your company. You one day wake up and find out that through either incompetence or possible greed that these people are not in fact doing a good job; that your cash cow is actually broke and just one step away from failing completely.

There's a sense in the Lederer Files that they did find out that player funds weren't separated and there was a massive shortfall in liquid cash assets. Whether or not you put the blame on Bitar here or the company on general is debatable. I believe Lederer and Ferguson were probably mortified and scared shitless about this news and feared a run on the bank. I believe Full Tilt was trying to make it right and start shifting funds so player funds were separate. Then Black Friday came and the incompetent federal goverment seized the sites and directly caused the run on the banks in these sites. So I believe FTP was in the process of fixing their screw up but once shut down never got that chance.

A lot of folks are saying these players should give their money back. But do you give your paycheck back when it's discovered your company is actually mismanaging it's money and screwing customers?

If Black Friday never occurred would Full Tilt have quietly behind the scenes worked out the shortfalls and had enough time to move money around? I believe so. If you want to blame anyone for making the fiasco worse, blame the US government. Yeah Pokerstars had their shit together. Ferguson and Lederer assumed the people they put in charge of running their company were doing the same.

It doesn't excuse their negligence from not doing more sooner. But to say they're on the same level as Russ Hamilton is a joke. Hamilton actively cheated in the game, directly affected the outcome of the game. He's on tape admitting he actively cheated in poker to actively steal money. These other guys just had incompetent people running their business.

Russ Hamilton is a thief and cheater and should be banned from the game he cheated. Ferguson and Lederer should have been more aware of their company's day to day operations but there's zero indication that they knowingly and intentionally took player funds.

 

[mezzodana]

Yes. Ferguson & Lederer alike should not be blacklisted from the poker community because we all have our own faults. Our faults aren't just aired for the whole poker world to see. Should we be sat at the same table, we shouldn't cop an attitude or try to berate them. Of course, what happened was a nightmare for a lot of player. I'm not diminishing the facts or the appearance of the facts, rather. I'm saying these guys have the right to play just like anyone else.

 

[MidMoMan]

Yes...

Mezz, if that's your pic in your profile, then hell yes I agree with you!!

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Thank you P.O.
Well said quick.

And let's not forget the Department of Justice levied pretty substantial fines and property seizures (millions each) against Howard and Chris (among others). They did not walk away from this by any stretch of the imagination.

An interesting side note - poker stars was also in deep shit with the DOJ (remember, they were shut down also) and had to pay $731 MILLION to the government to get out their own hot water. It was out of this money that FTP players were finally able to be reimbursed.

On some level, justice was served as the parties involved were held accountable for their actions. You can argue it wasn't enough, but the powers that be must have been satisfied with the outcome.

 

[supernuts25]

i dont think an (I'm sorry) should mean anything, He profited whether he stole or just turned his head to it, hes not giving it back.

so what does a sorry do im surprised hes been able to stay a live in Vegas though.

 

[roygor]

cheater is a cheater is a cheater......

I will never forgive him.

 

[supernuts25]

Besides when he sits down at a table at the wsop its like hes spitting in those peoples face im playing with your money and winning more of your money

 

[quick]

Agree 100% with everythng that MediaBlitz has posted in this thread!

Also it seems many aren't aware that FTP wasn't able to process ALOT of the US players deposits prior to Black Friday (to the tune of 100's of millions) and so many US players were essentially freerolling. I'd surmise that Bitar not wanting to take responsibility &/or to take the wheels off the bus, was likely hoping it'd be different... soon! (and then thinking that again... & again).

Thank you P.O.
Well said quick.

And let's not forget the Department of Justice levied pretty substantial fines and property seizures (millions each) against Howard and Chris (among others). They did not walk away from this by any stretch of the imagination.

An interesting side note - Poker Stars was also in deep shit with the DOJ (remember, they were shut down also) and had to pay $731 MILLION to the government to get out their own hot water. It was out of this money that FTP players were finally able to be reimbursed.

On some level, justice was served as the parties involved were held accountable for their actions. You can argue it wasn't enough, but the powers that be must have been satisfied with the outcome.

I watched the move "Bet Raise Fold" last night and definitely recommend people watch it; as PO and Blitz said, there's likely people not aware of all the variables that occurred leading to this situation. The movie was absolutely heartbreaking to watch hearing stories of players, good hard working honest people waking up one day and suddenly having no money and not knowing if they'd ever get that money back or get their job back. And absolutely disgusting when you realize the ONLY reason the feds seized the domains is because of some politicians who a few years prior seeking re-election from conservative "family religious values" voters demonized online poker and/or B&M Casino owners put pressure on them.

They got blocked so used the 1961 wire act and snuck in a law change into the Safe Harbor (Port) Act knowing Congress couldn't veto essentially an "anti terrorism" bill. They wrapped the UIGA (Unlawful gambling Act) into a large and complex "anti terrorism" bill way back in 2006. There's Democrats on record stating that Republicans were lying to the American people threatening to paint opposed politicians as supporters of terrorism if they vetoed the Safe Harbor Act. They literally blackmailed their opponents into voting for a bill because "if you oppose this larger Act, you support terrorism and will lose re-election." It wasn't that the majority of the Act was "bad," it was actually good and important to US safety , but sneaking the wire act part into there to target online poker is disgusting. I mean a Republican rep for the bill actually framed online poker as "click the mouse, lose your house" and that "online poker was tearing American families apart."

I don't care if you're Republican, Democrat, Independent. All types love poker. I'm not trying to frame Republicans as the bad guys here, but their representatives at the time lied to the American people, lied to Congress, and coerced opponents into agreeing to making wire transfers between banks and poker sites illegal.

People forget this "illegal wire transfer law" existed since 2006, years before before Black Friday. partypoker left the US market years before Black Friday because of it. FTP and PS filled the void and exploded. FTP focused on US players almost exclusively taking the wire transfer risks. This means FTP and PS were operating for 6 years in the US in what the feds deemed "illegal wire transfers." Why did the feds wait 6 years to "go after them?"

Sorry for being a bit tangential but people need to become aware of how long standing this issue was. And look at online poker in the US today. If anything US players are MORE vulnerable to being cheated and ripped off because of the UIGA and Black Friday. BUT they still want US players to pay their taxes on these "winnings"!

Lederer and Ferguson got caught in a shit storm. There is zero evidence they knowingly were mismanaging player funds personally. There's also zero evidence that the UIGA and domain seizures did anything to "protect" American players, in fact it hurt them. BLITZ nailed it here... FTP was unable for years to accurately and safely accept player deposits due to the UIGA. Were they supposed to just shut down and disappear? Let's not forget that less savory "online poker sites" probably took advantage of this by being more than willing to engage with shady payment processing "companies" to fill the void. Maybe FTP wasn't willing to go with some mob run or shady processor that was breaking even more laws to get money from/to players. I wonder how that influences temptation to steal funds, use cheat software, etc due to less players and less rake generation. Want to point the finger? Look back to 2006 and the "politicians" who attacked online poker to get re-election.

Yeah maybe FTP would have folded over time if they didn't move faster to fix the issue of lack of player fund separation accounts once the issue was discovered. But if their intentions were good to try and make it right while operating the massive loss in 2006 of being able to easily accept player deposits didn't help. Then years later being threatened by the Feds and facing severe fines if not jail time certainly means they weren't thinking straight then, there was likely a lot of panic. But certainly the UIGA and Black Friday destroyed any chance of them righting the sinking ship while also destroying people's livelihood. Who exactly were the feds "protecting" in doing what they did?

 

[MediaBLITZ]

FTP was unable for years to accurately and safely accept player deposits due to the UIGA. Were they supposed to just shut down and disappear? Let's not forget that less savory "online poker sites" probably took advantage of this by being more than willing to engage with shady payment processing "companies" to fill the void. Maybe FTP wasn't willing to go with some mob run or shady processor that was breaking even more laws to get money from/to players.

Here's a name most people do not know - NELSON BURTNICK.
Burtnick was in charge of payment processing for FTP. He said in court that he knew he was breaking the law when he concealed online poker transactions between Full Tilt Poker and U.S. customers.
According to the Department of Justice, Burtnick worked closely with Full Tilt Poker CEO Ray Bitar to deceive financial institutions by creating fake companies and fabricating credit card transactions. Side note: IT IS THIS THAT IS ILLEGAL IN THE U.S., NOT ONLINE POKER ITSELF.
One of Burtnick's main charges was conspiracy (which he pled guilty to). Connecting the dots here it seems Bitar was in on the conspiracy (he also pled guilty), but there is no indication or or even implication Lederer or Ferguson knew about what was going on.
YES, they should have, but they didn't. I mean you didn't see them slowing down from playing poker and TV appearances - obviously they were having a ball and trusting other people to take care of business.

 

[quick]

Here's a name most people do not know - NELSON BURTNICK.
Burtnick was in charge of payment processing for FTP. He said in court that he knew he was breaking the law when he concealed online poker transactions between Full Tilt Poker and U.S. customers.
According to the Department of Justice, Burtnick worked closely with Full Tilt Poker CEO Ray Bitar to deceive financial institutions by creating fake companies and fabricating credit card transactions. Side note: IT IS THIS THAT IS ILLEGAL IN THE U.S., NOT ONLINE POKER ITSELF.
One of Burtnick's main charges was conspiracy (which he pled guilty to). Connecting the dots here it seems Bitar was in on the conspiracy (he also pled guilty), but there is no indication or or even implication Lederer or Ferguson knew about what was going on.
YES, they should have, but they didn't. I mean you didn't see them slowing down from playing poker and TV appearances - obviously they were having a ball and trusting other people to take care of business.

This is such an important variable. People probably say "see Burtnick and Bitar were doing illegal money transfers, they're criminals." But context is important here. I doubt there was a conspiracy, rather these were business people looking for loopholes and ways to maintain their online poker business (and probably sweating knowing their funds should have been better separated for players and couldn't just stop operations ). People see "conspiracy" and "illegal" and suddenly assume that all laws are valid and fair and thus anything illegally done must mean the person is a bad person doing bad things. What were they supposed to do, just shutter FTP? How many "investors" and "hedge fund" managers do dodgy and perhaps illegal accounting and use shady loopholes to do their "business." This wasn't about poker. Sites STILL do this to get around the outdated wire transfer act to keep their business viable, not necessairly to launder money or defraud banks. Amazing it's perfectly legal an ok to go to your bank, take out money and take it to a casino and play and for casinos to accept it, but go online with your bank card and suddenly you're part of an assumed fraud.