That Phil Helmuth Angle Shoot

[DS3]

I had heard about a Phil Helmuth angle shoot during a match against a table of celebrity You Tubers playing at Hustler Casino...but did not expect it to be quite this apparent. I guess that why Hustler Casino decided to edit the clip and post it as a stand alone moment.

The impression many were given was Helmuth felt he could behave at he wanted against a table of amateurs. But after he 'retrieves' his folded hand and the questions arise, it is the audacity of him deciding a deal should be reached with him informing everyone what 'real poker players' understand is what sticks in the throat.

It's odd because for all the faults one can level at Helmuth, angle shooting in not one of them, but I guess there is something cheaty in the air at the moment.

Then when informed the comments were blowing up Phil dismisses them with 'well, people are stupid'...you judge.

 

[Shells]

The link below, is CardsChat's latest article on the topic....

Did Phil Hellmuth Shoot an Angle at Table Full of Superstar Streamer Newbies?

 

[DS3]

The link below, is CardsChat's latest article on the topic....

Did Phil Hellmuth Shoot an Angle at Table Full of Superstar Streamer Newbies?

That was a good write up.

Glad Alexandra Botez won big as the only girl at the table and with a chess channel I watch from time to time. Glad also many pros chipped in with their ten cents to call Hellmuth out.

I had watched some of the stream and Hellmuth was cringe from the outset, trying to act like one of the 'cool kids'.

Finally, happy that the Hustler stream has established itself so well. They placed a lot of investment in developing their media with the idea it was going to be free to air from the outset. I have little doubt this in turn put some pressure on PokerGo to release more of their content from behind their paywall.

Anyways, back to Hellmuth. I personally got the impression that off camera, Hellmuth looked more than a little practised at this type of stunt and I just wondered if he did not play such angles when he thought he could get away with it.

 

[Shells]

That was a good write up.

Glad Alexandra Botez won big as the only girl at the table and with a chess channel I watch from time to time. Glad also many pros chipped in with their ten cents to call Hellmuth out.

I had watched some of the stream and Hellmuth was cringe from the outset, trying to act like one of the 'cool kids'.

Finally, happy that the Hustler stream has established itself so well. They placed a lot of investment in developing their media with the idea it was going to be free to air from the outset. I have little doubt this in turn put some pressure on PokerGo to release more of their content from behind their paywall.

Anyways, back to Hellmuth. I personally got the impression that off camera, Hellmuth looked more than a little practised at this type of stunt and I just wondered if he did not play such angles when he thought he could get away with it.

One never really knows unless you review every single hand that Phil has played to determine any other angle. He does talk a lot so there is that which he may have been able to hide any other hands he may have angled. In this case, and in my opinion and a million others, Phil did fold and he is trying really hard to cover it up, instead of just admitting he folded. All he would need to do is re-watch the hand and he surely wouldn't be able to deny the action then.

 

[DS3]

One never really knows unless you review every single hand that Phil has played to determine any other angle. He does talk a lot so there is that which he may have been able to hide any other hands he may have angled. In this case, and in my opinion and a million others, Phil did fold and he is trying really hard to cover it up, instead of just admitting he folded. All he would need to do is re-watch the hand and he surely wouldn't be able to deny the action then.

Yup. I listened to Matt Berkey's take on it where he deliberately played devil's advocate for one side of the argument and said in private games these kind of stunts go down all the time. I'm sure they do.

However, it just felt like a practised move to me...I'll push my cards to the middle of the table without declaring 'I fold'. Then two other pros Dwan and Keating got involved (seriously, what the actual hell) in the whole lets goof around flip the cards and Hellmuth just laughed at the antics. 'Slime' obviously thought that Hellmuth had mucked his hand (as did David Tuckman who was commenting) he turned his cards over and 'hey presto!' Hellmuth hadn't folded.

Berkey of course disagreed with Hellmuth charging 'Slime' to let him out of the hand but that is where Berkey's logic fell apart. He was arguing Helmuth had not exactly played by the rules but then 'Slime' revealed his hand so therefore he was not protecting his hand. Okay so that would mean the pro can mess with the rules but the amateur (who thought Hellmuth had mucked) still needed to 'protect' his hand and ask for a declaration? No, that makes no sense in the context.

And of course as so many have pointed out, if 'Slime' had turned over AK, Hellmuth would of course congratulated himself for folding.

Happy to watch the EPT today to get away from all the dubious behavior that's emerged of late.

 

[Shells]

I haven't watched/listened to the Matt Berkey podcast on this topic yet but from what you had said, I'm thinking Matt's (devil's advocate) defence of Phil, in this case, is wrong. I like Phil but this is not hard to admit he was wrong.

 

[IADaveMark]

The consensus was (and you can see evidence of this just barely on the screen) that Dwan asked to see Phil's hand. You can see Durrr even gesture at the bottom of the screen. At that point, Phil pushed his cards towards Durrr who looked at them as part of the discussion. It was Slime thinking that Phil was folding who then showed his cards. It was a miscommunication because of all the banter that was going on, but it started when Durrr asked to see Phil's cards and Phil pushed them to him.

 

[DS3]

I haven't watched/listened to the Matt Berkey podcast on this topic yet but from what you had said, I'm thinking Matt's (devil's advocate) defence of Phil, in this case, is wrong. I like Phil but this is not hard to admit he was wrong.

Oh, don't worry Matt Berkey did call him out for sure...but the argument got into semantics and ironically, it was Landon Tice (not the most experienced or articulate) who kept insisting Hellmuth was wrong on every level.

The Berkey podcast was also interesting as he made another good point...one which I have labored over myself. That would be the GG model of putting poker behind a paywall does not make sense (other of course than as a profit making exercise for a specific entity)

This will be Hustler's biggest ever stream (across all platforms) and it will likely top the viewing figures of any wsop event held on GG at the last WSOP. Berkey praised Hustler Casino for providing the content and having the creativity to bring streamers with a vast audience to grow poker. As I have done, he cited puting WSOP content (historic as well as contemporary) was a mistake/

Berkey is working/guesting to some degree with the relaunched 'Live At The Bike' livestream which is now presented in partnership with Bally's - they have now really upped their game in terms of upgrading the set and technical aspects of the feed following Hustler casino's lead. But as Berkey pointed out they are also attempting to put their feed behind a paywall on You Tube's premium services...and I would really be surprised to see that gain traction. My guess would be that either fizzles or they have to switch to free to air.

Poker as an industry is too small to limit access. It needs to spend money on content to expand and grow. Hustler and now The Lodge (Polk, Neeme and Owen) are looking like leading the way with a firm understanding the industry needs to promote itself to a broader market and then everyone is in a stronger position in the longer term.

And, not for nothing...the EPT is streaming right now and their new set in Monaco and technical production is superb and free to one and all.

 

[DS3]

The consensus was (and you can see evidence of this just barely on the screen) that Dwan asked to see Phil's hand. You can see Durrr even gesture at the bottom of the screen. At that point, Phil pushed his cards towards Durrr who looked at them as part of the discussion. It was Slime thinking that Phil was folding who then showed his cards. It was a miscommunication because of all the banter that was going on, but it started when Durrr asked to see Phil's cards and Phil pushed them to him.

Yes, it was confusing and yes, Dwan got involved and asked to see Hellmuth's cards.

Except, Hellmuth pushed his cards directly forward towards the center of the table and Dwan was sat two places to Helmuth's left with the steamer 'Ninja' in between. Hellmuth was not passing his cards to Dwan. The hand that you can see briefly in shot is the dealers.

However then Dwan apparently did reach out to look at them (not exactly kosher as Hellmuth gave no verbal indication it was okay) and then Keating got involved from the other end of the table and told Dwan to flip them so all could see.

Finally, for those that do not know, Hellmuth has now said he will reimburse 'Slime' for the 5K charge as well as half the pot, to prove it was no angle shoot. My opinion remains (as I believe most) that horse has already bolted. Hellmuth could have done that in the moment.

Instead he even sprang up with delight when the Rabbit Hunt revealed 'Slime' would have won the hand with Hellmuth declaring how lucky he was.

I agree with Berkey's 'devils advocate' take as above. I do not believe Hellmuth a cheat in any public context that I have ever seen...but as for private game stunts? The 'release' of his hand (it was a gesture of release) looked too pat and practised. I muck my hand forward yet fail to declare I have folded. That routine has been used countless times and the impression I got was Hellmuth knew exactly what he was doing in the moment.

 

[DS3]

The consensus was (and you can see evidence of this just barely on the screen) that Dwan asked to see Phil's hand. You can see Durrr even gesture at the bottom of the screen. At that point, Phil pushed his cards towards Durrr who looked at them as part of the discussion. It was Slime thinking that Phil was folding who then showed his cards. It was a miscommunication because of all the banter that was going on, but it started when Durrr asked to see Phil's cards and Phil pushed them to him.

I need to correct myself here in that Dwan was sat two places to the right of Hellmuth, not two places to the left - my mistake - and it therefore did look like Dwan reaching for the cards and not the dealer.

 

[fundiver199]

Personally I dont think, Phil would intentionally run an angle against an amateur in full public in a streamed game. Or at least I dont think, he was expecting his opponents to show his cards. Its more likely, he was trying to provoke an emotional reaction, so he could judge, if his opponent prefered a fold or call. Phil has always taken pride in his "reading abilities", and to be fair this is a big and legit part of live poker. So there is definitely a grey zone here, between when something is just part of the game, and when its an angle.

Which by the way is not even directly against the rules, its just considered scummy by most. But when pokerstars recently celebrated their 20 year anniversary with nominations of "best hands ever" in different categories, one of those were essentially "best angle". And the winner was none other than Daniel Negreanu for a stunt, where he pretended to "misclick" and open raise to some absurd amount with AK, and his opponent took the bait and got it in preflop with AJ.

So there is also a bit of dubble standards here, where apparently for parts of the poker community, angle shooting is ok, when its done by someone, they like, but not when its done by someone, they dislike. Regardless of Phils intension I agree with Doug Polks take, that in a situation like this, the floor should have been called over and made a ruling, especially when one of the players involved was inexperienced. Watching Phil basically dictate, what the resolution should be, was not a pretty sight at all.

Finally this hand should also serve as a reminder to anyone playing live poker to never muck or show their cards, before they are completely sure, the hand is over, and in the case of mucking, that they have lost it. Its always ok to delay action for a few seconds to get confirmation, whats going on, especially when you are playing for big money like here. In this case Slime did not even have to show his cards, if Phil had actually folded, so there was literally no reason for Slime to flip them over.

 

[DS3]

Completely agree.

Regarding the Negreanu hand, I actually posted the clip elsewhere (last year?) as it was mentioned and someone said they had never seen it. That was a stinker and I then pointed out he had done the same thing to Erik Seidel in Monaco a few years before.

Absolutely agree with Polk also. The one criticism which can be made against the Hustler Casino is they seem hesitant to have the floor intervene in live streams, which is silly.

Hope you are watching EPT Monte Carlo - I have missed the EPT and Monaco sooooo much!

 

[ScooperNova]

Almost every honest person has dismissed the angle shooting at this point. We must look at all the evidence. The video looks bad. We have now learned the camera was cut off in such a way as we didn't get much information. Every person at the table knew he didn't fold except for slime. They were all telling him before Phil even knew what was going on.

 

[Phoenix Wright]

Jonthan Little discusses this hand, but probably not an angle attempt (or at least not as obvious as that camera angle made it look).

This game was very splashy and showing players cards etc. The betting line also didn't play in this game...

 

[Theophrastus]

Something is fishy

If slime went all in then how could he (slime) have folded?

If Hellmuth called then both hands would have been turned face up and slime would have won with two pair

 

[BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch]

I watched some of it and they way these folks were playing with crazy pot sizes so $5000 was nothing to them. Phil let him off the hook.

If they went to the dealer or the floor then he would have given up a lot more.

 

[DS3]

I’m still chalking it down to (thanks to Berkey) home game shenanigans brought to the TV table. Too contrived by far.

Hellmuth declares his confusion before sliding his hand forward within reach of Dwan (convenient), who apparently looks at the cards. The dealer should have interjected and asked for clarification of Helmuth’s action or called the hand folded. A third pro Keating then asks for the cards to be flipped and they were. However, when ‘Slime’ who believes Hellmuth has folded, shows his hand, he is pounced on as it is weaker preflop.

Hellmuth has apparently now not folded (convenient) and the solution is readily at hand (convenient) - ’Let’s make a deal!’, Hellmuth asking for 5K and Dwan having the audacity to suggest 10K.

Color me skeptical, but if the matter was truly confusing, then they would have needed to call the floor manager, would they not? But, as above, Hellmuth and Dwan have the insta-solution at hand which would indicate that they have been in this situation a ‘few’ times before.

However, they ran the hand for fun and ‘Slime’ would have won. At that point, Hellmuth instead of acting in a conciliatory manner and suggesting splitting the pot leaps up in glee saying ‘I’m so lucky’.

Funny. because I cannot recall in all the thousands of hands we have watched Hellmuth play on TV. confusion regarding him folding a hand or not. However, I’d bet the neighbors first born, this is a fairly common occurrence in loosey-goosey private/home games where pros can assert themselves and arbitrate a ‘confusing’ situation.

I'll quote high stakes player Chris Brewer when it come to playing in the high stakes home games...

"It’s the reason people don’t play private games or certain homes games - you don’t want to get cheated. If the game is unsafe, the game’s unplayable".

 

[Poker Orifice]

I watched some of it and they way these folks were playing with crazy pot sizes so $5000 was nothing to them. Phil let him off the hook.

If they went to the dealer or the floor then he would have given up a lot more.

Yah I watched a bit of it too (I saw in the chat of a twitch streamer I was watching, saying that they were watching it so I went to take a look).
Not only were the pot sizes large but the bet sizing was absurd. Limp.. reraise 20bb... 3Bet to the min... call. Raise.. 3Bet.. 4bet HUGE... call... call (with A6o, Q7s, etc.).

It reminded me of a home game I once played with my 80+yr. old inlaws who had never played poker before in their lives. (playchips... where everyone calls to see the flop regardless of if they're sitting on 1/4 SPR in their remaining stack.... and call to the river with ANY piece of the board).

That table would've been a dream table for a super micro reg. who'd been 100% staked as it looked to be playing similarly to a playchip game.

 

[maestro121920]

Phil is just becoming a brat, too old to play with these cool kids, please don't invite him again

 

[Roller]

Some say yes and some sat no, I don't really think that's the question, but in cases of disputes the floor should be called and decide the outcome of as dispute. That way the floor takes the responsibility of the truth in the specific situation. Why was the floor not called over, just a thought.

 

[dreamer13]

Phil Hellmuth rarely gives interviews, but each of them quickly diverges into loud and daring quotes. In the finale of the last season of High Stakes Duel, Phil Hellmuth defeated Daniel Negreanu to take home the $400,000 prize. He said that the victory over Negreanu is not a WSOP bracelet win, to be especially happy about this. I felt like a routine both at the beginning of this match and after it.” Hellmuth's recent successes have not affected the debate on the Internet about the level of his game. Despite the fact that he is one of the leaders in tournament poker according to his results over the past thirty years, some young players have criticized his game in recent weeks. According to Phil, since ancient times, the main measure of success in poker, which can prove one's skill, is the number won WSOP bracelets, of which he has 15. The closest competitors - Phil Ivey, Johnny Chen and Doyle Brunson - have only 10.