How many poker players could lay down quad queens in the situation where Kym Lim did? Would you?
Kym Lim Folds Quad Queens in High-Stakes Cash Game, Poker Players Go Berserk
Ugh, I don't know if we are ever happy here. Lots of people are complaining that they don't think the others showed their hands, but this is being results-oriented; it doesn't actually matter a ton if they happen to have Quad Queens beat this time or not - it is if Kym Lim is correct in folding for this exact spot. Folding Four of a Kind (and Flopped them, no less!) sounds like it could be beyond exploitable, but obviously many factors play into this decision and many of them are psychological or tell-based. Would I fold Quad Queens here?
All the best players seem to be able to fold correctly and get away from monster hands. I think I'd like to be able to fold even Four of a Kind when it is correct, but I'm also very tempted to just close my eyes, make the call and then if I'm beat: "tip my fedora" (as Katie mentioned in the CardsChat 30 Day course).
For attention/table image or not, I'm pretty sure Kym Lim had more "information" than even tweeted and a strong tell or multiple
tells together is one such piece of information. I don't think Kym Lim would fold Quad Queens without a strong live read to go with the information described. Folding might have been correct!
I don't know the reg but I can't help but think he got sticky with a pair of 10's, made a boat on the river, and got bullish with them jamming.
These "sticky" and "bluffy" moves are the sort of thing that could easily justify calling with Four Queens. That hand beats almost everything, so the range of hands it beats is a lot. Perhaps they knew their opponent tendencies better than we do. If the opponent is never sticky, then I hate this spot, but folding might be justifiable. Conversely, little information about the opponent would give us incentive to call and put them on a worse hand. Our Quad Queens again beats so many hand combinations - the question is would the opponent(s) contain those combinations in their range at this point and would their actions be consistent with them? The renowned Royal Flush is consistent with this line of play - not to say they have it, but they very well might.
It would be very tough for me to fold quads in almost any situation !
+1 For sure; when is folding a hand this strong ever easy? Maybe folding the lowest Full House if it is clear the opponent has us beat or something, but Quads is so strong and rare that we probably continue with them to showdown every time. Kym Lim obviously didn't every single time. Ugh, this is a tough spot - if her gut feeling is like mine, then I might fold. We must also consider the opponent(s) play at these games and stakes though. In the lower stakes this is like an instant-call, but in these high stakes, there is so much more going on and way less likely for someone to just be getting sticky with something like a Full House.
I just read that story. Nah I could not have folded Quads, but who knows what the other player really had. Maybe he just read her like a book and with the cards on the board he new he was taking a chance that maybe she had the straight or royal flush. Im guessing he had at least one of the cards though. I would be sick!
I think this fold would be virtually impossible without a strong live read on this situation. I think Kym Lim had KdJd as what they thought they had - perhaps even around the flop. Obviously, other hands are possible, but wouldn't that justify a fold? Say we strongly "knew" our opponent exact holdings and then that draw gets there? Sounds like a clear fold in this case, but it is only as good as the live read. No read or even a strong once that isn't convincing enough likely results in calling to showdown every time.
So I guess this ultimately comes down to your philosophical approach: do we go with the math or the psychology? If we go strictly by the math when in doubt, then we likely call this off with Quad Queens. If we go strictly by our live reads/intuition when in doubt, then we likely fold despite having Quad Queens! In this I'd go with my refined intuition and fold, but would that ever take discipline and courage. Forget about looking silly afterwards - calling with Quad Queens is for sure the "normal" thing to do, but how much more would it take to convince yourself to fold in this spot? If this is correct to fold, then wow. It is sick either way!
I would have called, what she did took courage, good for her.
+1 I agree. I'm not sure what I'd do because we never know until we are in that exact spot ourselves. I've made some huge laydowns correctly before (some incorrectly too but no one is perfect), but I've also just closed my eyes and called before too. I am not sure, but it depends on what my thought-process is in the moment. If I'm considering the opponent getting sticky with a Full House or even somewhat capable of a big
bluff here, then I'm closing my eyes and calling this off. The problem is if I don't think the opponent(s) ever get sticky/bluff like this and play this pot in this way without the super nuts. It sounds like Kym Lim was thinking this latter way and in this case, then I'd probably let it go. Yes, I might fold! Grudgingly, but I might. Ugh, I seriously might just call with my eyes closed on this one too - tough spot for sure...
That's a pretty good point that she might be making all of this up to get some attention or even to project an image for future cash games, attracting action.
This is possible as well, but that is "expensive advertising" at these stakes. What might be the case:
Kym Lim actually believed folding was correct here and so might as well tweet out some "free advertising" after-the-fact. I don't think Kym was at the table thinking: "I should fold and then tweet about it for publicity
" What makes sense is folding by your live read juxtaposed to the logic of the situation (math and how the action was played) and then deciding to tweet about it later.
That's very interesting, so in that case maybe she was right that he had almost a 0% chance of bluffing. I had thought that playing close to 1000bb deep would have been very unusual but it sounds like it's more common than I realized to be able to cover the recreational players.
Checking flop with KdJd would be pretty reasonable I think, I mean I agree that we can c-bet here but we've got some showdown value + draw equity so I think we can put this hand in his range. What range would you put him on after he 5-bets river?
You make some very good points about 3-betting pre and also betting flop, nice analysis!
+1 Great analysis and if there really was about a 0% chance of bluffing here, then folding Queens must be correct; what does the Four of a Kind beat here? That still sounds so weird to say lol
It's great to fold quads. I don't even remember when I last folded a FULL house.
Different players and different play-styles, but I've folded monster hands a lot. Crazy thing...it is correct very often (I know because they show afterwards). Okay sure, perhaps some folds are not correct, but to play this way you must accept that sometimes you are going to fold the best hand. It is a numbers game. The obvious issue here (which is clear to even the most beginning player) is that folding too often is exploitable and folding monster hands like a Full House or Four of a Kind is suicidal if not for a strong reason. If you are folding even monster hands to aggression, then what are you ever taking a stand with? If nothing or far too little, then the villains can just print money by showing aggression towards you with any two cards - you'll just fold!
If there is super strong reason to fold though, then fold - despite how good your hand might objectively be. Say we know for sure - 100% sure that the opponent has the coveted Royal Flush. Do we fold pocket Aces? It is the best hand preflop...can we fold this? Silly to present it this way, but instant fold if we knew for sure we were up against a Royal Flush. What if we have a much stronger hand that almost never loses...say Four Queens...we would still fold if we knew we were beat! How objectively good our hand is means nothing if we were sure we were beat - that is just common sense. Now the tricky part is applying this reasoning here. To fold Quad Queens, then one must be 100% sure or at least virtually certain that they are beat. Clearly, Kym Lim believed this to be the case and folded!
Yeah, I am calling there. If my opponent has the royal or the straight flush there, god bless them. There is enough in the pot and enough hands that I beat for me to make that call.
For sure it would take a lot of convincing for me to fold Four of a Kind. I'd like to think not impossible. I'd like to think I could fold even the best hands, but your confidence interval had better be really high in this spot to fold Quads. I'm almost certain their were live reads/specific player tells in this spot. Kym Lim obviously wouldn't include them in the tweet because those tells may prove useful later, but if I was facing Kym Lim here and they just folded Four of a Kind, then
I might be the one losing sleep. Straight Flush or not, I'd be reviewing camera footage and looking at my play in the mirror - what tell(s) might convince them to fold here? What am I possibly giving away?
