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FreshmanJoe
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Why do we have rake in online poker when we're not occupying a seat in a physical establishment? Why can there be no flat monthly fee like other Apps? Are they ripping us off?
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FreshmanJoe
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Why does that matter? It's not gonna cost them more if anyone is playing higher stakes. And even if they feel like they need more money for higher stakes, they can still design different plans for different players. Paying a rake similiar to a live casino sounds like pure exploitation.
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Luvepoker
Lost in the twilight zone
Community Guide
Its a business pure and simple. They charge a rake so they can pay the IT people pay for the hardware they need and on and on. They charge the rake to pay for those things along with trying to make a profit.
Now yes they could charge a flat fee but what would that be? If playing 1/2 cent would $10.00 a month be good or would it be more that most players pay. Most people would complain about that as well.
Now yes they could charge a flat fee but what would that be? If playing 1/2 cent would $10.00 a month be good or would it be more that most players pay. Most people would complain about that as well.
Alizona
Visionary
Bronze Level
Its a rule in business that you charge as much for your product as the customers are willing to pay.
You see, there are NO ethics or morals in business, despite what most people seem to think... a corporation has only ONE goal, and that is to PROFIT.
In the wisdom of the Apostle Paul, in 1 Timothy 6:10 he says "For the love of money is the root of all evil." Thus, when your ONLY goal is to "make money", guess what?
YOU ARE EVIL. According to Biblical scripture. Corporations only love one thing... MONEY. Corporations are therefore evil. Pretty simple and clear logic.
Does that help any? It helped me to understand our evil human world... just look around you - literally every poker player is playing poker for one reason... because they think it will make them money, and they like the idea of playing a game to make money... in fact they LOVE that idea.
Me? I play poker because I love to play poker. The only reason money matters to me at all is because in order to play in the highest-skilled games, you have to be able to match the bankrolls of those higher-skilled players. I want to be the best poker player in the world. I have ZERO urge to become the richest poker player in the world. Huge difference, but indistinguishable to most. If my words don't make much sense, don't worry about it. I know I'm an oddball in this world. So be it, it's never bothered me in the slightest. Best wishes!! And beat that rake.
P.S. In case you're wondering, no I am not "rich" or "wealthy", in fact I am quite poor... but I have the courage of my convictions, I know God will provide when I am in need... and nobody ever said it would be easy to have principles and stick to them. It isn't easy at all, not in this world we live in.
You see, there are NO ethics or morals in business, despite what most people seem to think... a corporation has only ONE goal, and that is to PROFIT.
In the wisdom of the Apostle Paul, in 1 Timothy 6:10 he says "For the love of money is the root of all evil." Thus, when your ONLY goal is to "make money", guess what?
YOU ARE EVIL. According to Biblical scripture. Corporations only love one thing... MONEY. Corporations are therefore evil. Pretty simple and clear logic.
Does that help any? It helped me to understand our evil human world... just look around you - literally every poker player is playing poker for one reason... because they think it will make them money, and they like the idea of playing a game to make money... in fact they LOVE that idea.
Me? I play poker because I love to play poker. The only reason money matters to me at all is because in order to play in the highest-skilled games, you have to be able to match the bankrolls of those higher-skilled players. I want to be the best poker player in the world. I have ZERO urge to become the richest poker player in the world. Huge difference, but indistinguishable to most. If my words don't make much sense, don't worry about it. I know I'm an oddball in this world. So be it, it's never bothered me in the slightest. Best wishes!! And beat that rake.
P.S. In case you're wondering, no I am not "rich" or "wealthy", in fact I am quite poor... but I have the courage of my convictions, I know God will provide when I am in need... and nobody ever said it would be easy to have principles and stick to them. It isn't easy at all, not in this world we live in.
Poker_Mike
Legend
Loyaler
No they are not "ripping us off".
Mainly because players don't currently have a choice.
If pokersite 1 started doing it and was drawing players away from pokersite 2 then the whole industry would think about this model.
After all - you can pay a timed rake - that is the same from everyone at the table - in high stakes live play.....why not online?
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FreshmanJoe
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Sites like YouTube and Netflix get thousands of giga bytes of data uploaded and streamed from their platforms "every minute", something a regular poler site would never need in it's lifetime. And they need A LOT more "IT people" and "hardware", so no, it does not make sense. Even a simple map on your phone is pretty sophisticated application, and I'm sure you pay nothing to use it. Not to mention social media, which is used more than all the poker sites combined.
Rockyfour
Visionary
Silver Level
Because the people running the Poker sites are a bunch of degenerate gamblers from the Cayman Islands who went to community college for 3 months to learn how to pirate a poker client from Windows 98 and paste over a skin using MS Paint.
Bottom line, they are basically scamming you to fund their degenerate life style.
StealTheButton
Rock Star
Silver Level
This is not the brightest statement. How about why does a bar charge me $5 for a beer when I can go to my local beverage distributor and pay 1.50 per beer?
Anywho, I just looked at my tournament winnings which total about 8000 free and clear. I have actually won 11k, but the 3k went to pokerstars. This of course pays for servers, electricity, advertising, and the salaries of the reps that deal with customer service when i have issues. What would be really frustrating is wining $5000, but paying a rake of $5000, so profiting nothing. This is where the phrase "beating the rake" comes from.
Beating the rake in cash games is tougher. The house gets like 10% of every pot, and if everyone keeps playing and not bringing new money to the table the house eventually gets all the money. I should really learn cash games.
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FreshmanJoe
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I don't play cash games as much anymore for the same reason. As for your argument about servers and other operational costs, you might wanna read my previous reply to Luvepoker above. Also paying $3000 out of $11,000 sounds like a rip off, unless it also pays my taxes. There's no way I would participate in a tournament on a site that charges that much.
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fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
Obviously an online poker site needs to make money to pay for servers, software development, a support team, a security team and so on and so forth. So the question is only, which is the best way to collect that money. A monthly "membership fee" would penalize casual players and create a massive entry barrier to online poker, so that would hardly be a sustainable business model.
In fact the industry has gone in the exact opposite direction, because it was discovered, that things like loyalty programs tended to reward people, who were already winning at the tables, so it was not good for the total ecosystem. Instead sites moved towards things like a "daily challenge" or a "spin", which reward people for logging on every day but not for playing 5.000 hands.
Other models like an hourly table fee could be possible and are somewhat used in live poker. We can only guess as to why, no online poker site has ever tried that. But perhaps it could be because, it would be way more visible to people than a rake. Some recreational players probably have no idea, how much rake they actually pay on a cash table.
Personally I dont think, there is a better model than rake for online cash games. I just wish, it would be a bit lower than the typical 5%. But at least if you make it into mid and high stakes, the cap per pot will eventually become important and limit, how much you pay.
In fact the industry has gone in the exact opposite direction, because it was discovered, that things like loyalty programs tended to reward people, who were already winning at the tables, so it was not good for the total ecosystem. Instead sites moved towards things like a "daily challenge" or a "spin", which reward people for logging on every day but not for playing 5.000 hands.
Other models like an hourly table fee could be possible and are somewhat used in live poker. We can only guess as to why, no online poker site has ever tried that. But perhaps it could be because, it would be way more visible to people than a rake. Some recreational players probably have no idea, how much rake they actually pay on a cash table.
Personally I dont think, there is a better model than rake for online cash games. I just wish, it would be a bit lower than the typical 5%. But at least if you make it into mid and high stakes, the cap per pot will eventually become important and limit, how much you pay.
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FreshmanJoe
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I don't know how much it costs to run a site like that, but I do know that I use a lot of sites and applications everyday that are alot bigger and charge little to nothing. Even trading in stocks is probably cheaper, and those sites require just as much (if not more) security, infrastructure and resources. But if people are willing to pay more, there is no reason why anybody should charge less.
I used to trade in stocks at my brokers office (just like live poker) and I know how much I used to pay. Then came online trading, but I still paid alot. And then one day I got an offer from this broker that offered almost 10 times less brokerage for online trading and saved me so much. I'm pretty sure they needed infrastructure and resources, just like others. But it is what it is. Atleast I can say that I save on dealer tips. But it's still a lot to pay. And I don't even know if it's not rigged.
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FreshmanJoe
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Also the bar here should be live poker.
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fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
If online poker was a massive profite machine, then competition would have driven down prices (rake). It is after all a free market, and entry barriers for operators are hardly larger than in other industries. However rather than competing on offering lower rake, sites tend to compete on promotions and reward programs instead. At the end of the day the result is the same, and its up to us as consumers to shop around for the best offers.
Luvepoker
Lost in the twilight zone
Community Guide
Social media and you tube and Netflix can get adverting if they need and want to to make there money. Why is poker not on TV anymore for the most part. Nobody wants to advertise the shows. This is how they make there money and its just the way it is and will always be this way.
Alizona
Visionary
Bronze Level
Collusion is not just limited to unethical poker players.
Sometimes others collude too... if you catch my drift. And who is gonna catch and stop them? Nobody.
We place quite a bit of faith in entities that we really have little to no knowledge about (internally, from an ethical standpoint), who reside on distant shores, far from the reach of our local legal jurisdictions. Yes, we all appreciate the fact these sites do exist so we can play this game we all love so much... I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, I'm simply trying to be a voice of reason for those who might never have considered these things.
And this is why, for the past decade, I have been very angrily opining on the US Government's actions of April 15, 2011, commonly known as "Black Friday"... because what that action did is force us from the existing poker sites (one of which was EXTREMELY honest, ethical and moral - namely poker stars under Isai Scheinberg) into the arms of other poker sites who now operate in what is called the "gray market" where we have little legal protection should we encounter any upset. And then, even worse, for the next ten years, the US Govt has done NOTHING to remedy the situation except turn their backs on all of US poker players.
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1984
Rock Star
Silver Level
pretty much agree, but if you don't like these kind of corporations, you must hate capitalism generally, especially this modern one, what they try to force on everybody, mixture with the worst part of tyrannical earlier systems, ideologies + tech, pharma, gov. Also must hate all the govs, and gov orgs, as basically they are corporations, and they charge you much more than any other poker sites - and don't give anything for it -, and if you participate in their ponzi sheme - aka life - you dont even have choice.... and didnt mention the owners, the money printers, bank owners, whose own everything and everybody who willing to do anything in their purely manipulated, controlled fake reality...
Nothing is free, of course they charge you, they are after the profit, how any other business, gov, any org - even if they advertise themselves differently -, if they are enough big and strong, then they are after the power and control - clearly visible today - until they don't have the totalitarian regime... - basically, thats why they've created the bank, money system..
And don't worry, this world, empire, 'system' will fail and fall, no question - how all others did in the past by the time -, build up on rotten woods, with tonnes weight bricks above..... can't wait to see it.....
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1984
Rock Star
Silver Level
Maybe you find it interesting, in the lovely country where i exist, long years ago the gov daddy made impossible any kind of gambling without their legal maffia hands on it, ergo only they can make profit... but it is not criminal, collusion within the few participants, it is the democratic law.....
just read today: (what do you think what level of collusion, bribery was ongoing for years between pokerstars and Austrian gov droids to keep it going like this? of course they dont mention a word about that: who, why, how made it possible to run it there, basically illegally for long years... - its okay, as they did it, the well rated, trustful humanitarian some level "leaders, rulers" and if you have the curage to question they destroy and kill you (generally, not specifically about this case))
https://pokerindustrypro.com/news/article/216566-austria-supreme-court-rules-pokerstars-not
and clueless brainwashed droids still giving speeches about the result of ethical behavior, hard work result, solidarity and million other keep you down nonsense bullsh*t..... like God, and any kind of religious nonsense crap.....
meantime there is only 1 rule in this world, money first, no matter for what price, then you can buy everything and everybody.... if you still want anything in this disgusting modern gulag...
Alizona
Visionary
Bronze Level
I have my very own unique views on exactly why "Black Friday" happened, and I do believe my explanation has been corroborated many times over... as user "1984" accurately points out, the Australian government did the exact same thing the American government did, which is to ban its people from playing on foreign sites.
And yes, my reason is ENTIRELY based upon that evil "money" thing, which few people in our world actually understand. Most people think money is "wealth" for example... which could not possibly be further from the truth. Money is actually DEBT, you see... money has been used as a weapon against humanity, to enrich a very small class at the expense of the entirety of humanity.
But I don't want to delve into another lengthy screed on my soapbox. *grin* Those who "get it", I don't have to write ten paragraphs... and sadly, those who don't "get it", I could write 100 paragraphs and I still could never overcome their preconceived notions about money and economy and Bankers and all that jazz...
Best wishes to all, somehow we persist, somehow we survive... but most importantly (I realize how negative my words must sound)... always remember to ENJOY our journey while we are here in this realm. Don't worry, be happy! Humble blessings to all.
And yes, my reason is ENTIRELY based upon that evil "money" thing, which few people in our world actually understand. Most people think money is "wealth" for example... which could not possibly be further from the truth. Money is actually DEBT, you see... money has been used as a weapon against humanity, to enrich a very small class at the expense of the entirety of humanity.
But I don't want to delve into another lengthy screed on my soapbox. *grin* Those who "get it", I don't have to write ten paragraphs... and sadly, those who don't "get it", I could write 100 paragraphs and I still could never overcome their preconceived notions about money and economy and Bankers and all that jazz...
Best wishes to all, somehow we persist, somehow we survive... but most importantly (I realize how negative my words must sound)... always remember to ENJOY our journey while we are here in this realm. Don't worry, be happy! Humble blessings to all.
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fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
Are are saying, that there is a huge global cartel of providers of online casinos, which have agreed on set prices, and that every single online casino is a part of this cartel? Thats seems a bit far fetched to me, especially considering that the rake structure and rewards are quite different from site to site
Alizona
Visionary
Bronze Level
Are are saying, that there is a huge global cartel of providers of online casinos, which have agreed on set prices, and that every single online casino is a part of this cartel? Thats seems a bit far fetched to me, especially considering that the rake structure and rewards are quite different from site to site
Your criticism of my opinions is entirely fair.
All I'm saying is... it is CERTAINLY in the sites' best interest to get together and simply agree to a base level of rake, and NEVER undercut the other sites... and in the business world, such an agreement would be accepted very quickly by all the participants, don't you think? Isn't this precisely how the railroads operated in America back in the 1800's? They had a monopoly on transportation, and I do believe it is an established and verified fact that they all got together in secret and agreed not to undercut each other. And they all became fabulously wealthy for it.
Again, my opinions here... and if your opinion differs from mine? Well that's what makes the world go 'round... unless you're a flat-earth believer of course... but let's not get into that discussion here.
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
What about ADVERTISING costs?
Back in 2007 to 2010, I can't even imagine how much the sites were spending on advertising... just on TV commercials alone!
What about customer support? (although obviously they spend MUCH less on it these days then say 10yrs. ago.. and pales in comparison to how much would be spent on advertising)
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FreshmanJoe
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Do you mean YouTube or Netflix do not spend on support or advertising?
