Push and Pray Poker

[theANMATOR]

Compensating for Post Flop Inabilities

I am talking about players using this as their default playing strategy. I think this is a terrible strategy but I keep seeing these type players making deep runs into tournaments. I'm sure y'all have noticed these players too since I see several of them in the CC freerolls. What are your thoughts on these players?

It is an all or nothing strategy employed by players who are BAD at post flop play.
Take all their chips when the opportunity presents itself.

Exactly, when stack sizes dictate, pushing can be the optimal play
Especially against a field with a significant skill advantage, jamming in proper spots is the best way to maximize your ev

Its also the best way to minimize your EV, when this is the your only strategy. I have only seen ONE player who plays optimal push/fold strategy without a post flop strategy.
Most (95%) or more do not follow proper push fold - evident by how OFTEN they are shoving preflop.

If they are following shove charts and sticking with optimal ranges for 40, 30, 20, 15, 10 BBs for each position it's not a bad strategy. It's not optimal, but it's certainly not bad.
Chris moneymaker referred to this as the long ball approach, and it was a way to keep skilled players from outplaying you postflop. It means less fluctuations to the stack from no raise/folding and if they are playing a lot of tables it makes sense to play this long ball approach.
They play a bunch of big pots, end up getting a stack in some tournaments, and maybe start playing more 'real' poker once they have a chance to cash for a meaningful amount.
Minimizes the mental stress of making tough decisions while allowing them to put in volume.

Its quite obvious by how often they shove preflop - they are compensating for their inability to play post flop, however reducing mental stress by employing this strategy is a very interesting aspect. Makes it easy - shove/fold. Although some players find exhilaration in the stress of post flop play. :stupid::afraid:

So they’re a great candidate for easy chips later on? Sounds like my kind of opponent

:top:

These players are annoying at times but they do save you money many times by getting you to fold marginal hands early.
Sit back and wait for your optimal hand / spot and get in there with them. True they may be lucky against you, buy as long as you made the right play you should be fine with the outcome. Over time you will get to like them, especially if you have them covered with your stack size.
Some players have a fear of being outplayed or hitting their miracle card from the muck so they prefer to jam it in there.
Take notes on their ranges and their positions and be patient. You will get the drt on them eventually!
Good luck at the tables.

This 100%. :top:

Just wanted to share a hand.
What do you think. Push and play or not and would you call with my hand?
Hand example
Sigh

At those stakes it's an insta call. Players are shoving any Ace, any two broadway and any pocket pair.
However the limp from UTG is just asking for 8 other players to join you in the hand.
Any player with a single 5, any 6, any 8 any 9 and Q, any 7 who decided to come along, if the two opponents didn't shove, would have won the hand, would have taken your flop cbet and possibly more.

 

[Lena M]

Hello.
For me, these are the best opponents at the table. Of course, sometimes these players are also lucky, but usually thanks to them, I easily manage to double. In general, I think it is not difficult to play against such opponents if you have enough patience.

 

[akmost]

I don't know how they think and I really don't care. Lately I avoid high variance spots both in freerolls and real money MTTs , when I am early in a tournament.I will have all the time to play my style and my game later on which is the small ball approach. I start 3bet jamming with ~20bbs where I think is the rule of the thumb and open jam ~15bbs. Based of course in many factors: my table image , the player's line up, the average stack if I am ITM , ICM blah blah blah.

Generally this may be a leak in my game , I don't know but I feel that it works fine for me ATM. If I study something else and it will change my approach the yes I will adapt!

On the other hand I agree with you that open jam for example early in a MTT/SNG 50+ bbs is at least a ridiculous move BUT there are always some exceptions:

1. I open jam no matter the # of my bbs(based on the push/fold charts) if I am in late position / near bubble / and I have behind only smaller stacks ,I really don't want to go post flop and my opponent play the stop and go move etc so I will apply maximum pressure to them pre.
2. In bubble phases and mostly in SNG I do the same if my opponents behind are good and understand the dynamic and that means that their calling range is ridiculously tight so that makes my open jam a +EV move with a super wide range of hands.
3.In satellites when I have a big stack and bullying my opponents is the right move.

 

[Zvezda kz]

I do not see anything strange. The luck of such players is temporary. I think a period will come when they will begin to study push fold more closely and narrow the ranges for a positive game.

 

[xOneCoolHandx]

Why these players are running deep is the amount of pots,blinds and antes they scoop without a showdown fearless shoving of group 1 hands or positional steals is probably better play than playing passively having to hit the board first.
Dodgy internet connections cause shove or fold play too.

Yeah, I see the strategy. I just don't think it is optimal. I remember back in the old days in every freeroll (and maybe it still happens in regular freerolls, I don't play them too often anymore, just the CC ones when I can) there would be a bunch of people jamming the first two levels on just about every hand to try and build up monster stacks. I would usually wait them out or register late so that I could come in and combat them once they have settled down and still have a decent stack relative to the blinds. But the players I am talking about. That is their sole strategy. I have to hand it to them. They wait for premium hands and just jam. I have toyed with the idea of just trying it during a regular freeroll or microstakes just to see how much more variance I would have than playing my normal game.

 

[xOneCoolHandx]

Wow. I mean I see this a lot in freerolls but wouldn't expect it to be an actual tactic in larger buy-in games. I think that would just be annoying if I had to face a bunch of players like that in regular games...

It's not pure luck when jamming certain spots is proven to be +EV with atc

Exactly, when stack sizes dictate, pushing can be the optimal play

Especially against a field with a significant skill advantage, jamming in proper spots is the best way to maximize your ev

But I think you guys are missing the point. It is not just certain spots. This is a basic strategy that is being employed. If this player comes into the hand, it is for his stack. Not just in certain spots but EVERY hand this player plays. I will give these guys credit, they do wait for premium hands. They are not just jamming any ace or low to low/med pocket pairs. I have actually toyed with the idea of trying this strategy in some freerolls and microstakes games just to compare the variance to my normal game, but I don't think I would have the patience to put in the necessary number of tournaments and hands.

 

[xOneCoolHandx]

idk about questions like this,what possible answer could one hope for i mean why so serious,in or out haha maybe some people spend their time creating a really bad table image when they are not really in the mood or mindset to stay serious but feel like playing anyway,and if BRM allows for many losses,its a tactical sacrifice , for more and bigger wins in the long run.Maybe they just love gambling.Have you ever tried it out of boredom,it may be fun...and if its hits youre winning twice,you get a huge pot or two if youre really on fire,and upset the oppositions mindset at the same time as it appears you are testimony to.Basically i think its part of the game,everyone has the same choices to make,if that causes a problem with your game then maybe thats something you need to work on to combat the situation when it arises.gl 2020

It doesn't affect my game at all and it certainly does not disturb my mindset. I was just pointing out the influx (or maybe growth) of this strategy. We all used to see it in freerolls all the time and in some other games, but it was something players did to build a stack and then they would settle down. This crop of players ONLY play push fold. I make it work to my advantage when one of these players are at my table.

 

[xOneCoolHandx]

These players are annoying at times but they do save you money many times by getting you to fold marginal hands early.
Sit back and wait for your optimal hand / spot and get in there with them. True they may be lucky against you, buy as long as you made the right play you should be fine with the outcome. Over time you will get to like them, especially if you have them covered with your stack size.

Some players have a fear of being outplayed or hitting their miracle card from the muck so they prefer to jam it in there.

Take notes on their ranges and their positions and be patient. You will get the drt on them eventually!

Good luck at the tables.

Just wanted to share a hand.

What do you think. Push and play or not and would you call with my hand?

Hand example

Sigh

I agree. I take notes and I LOVE when these types of players are at my table because I know that I can take advantage of them. I have been taking notes and kind of tracking these type of players (I keep a poker journal that I write in when I play) and it really seems like there is someone out there pushing this strategy. They wait and wait and wait for premium hands and then jam. Of course, after showing down premium hands several times, they can get a little looser because of their table image. But, for the most part, these players are waiting on premium hands and then just putting it all in. It does make them exploitable because you can raise their blinds all day and they rarely fight back because if they don't have a premium hand, then they fold, if they do, then you can fold.

As for your hand example, I don't know that I would have played the hand that way. I am assuming you limped from EP to induce a raise. I see this happen a lot on cash games but not as much in tournaments. When this works, you look like a genius, when it doesn't, you look terrible.

Personally I will never limp with AKo from EP. I will, however, limp with AKs because it is a hand that can be played similarly to the way you played this hand. But not with only 30 BBs. This is a play that you make when you are deeper stacked.

The next thing is that you are only a few levels in and probably don't have solid reads on the other players yet. If player 6 has already been jamming the last 2+ levels, then it may be a different story. But, Player 2 is the original raiser in this pot because you limped. He made this raise knowing that you are in EP and should actually have a good hand and potentially one that you are looking to limp/raise with. Knowing this, Player 2 still raised the pot (I am imputing a lot of skill that might not be there at this level though since it was just a 10 cent buy-in) but did not jam like the players I was talking about.

So, not having any history before this hand. I think I could go either way on this hand. You have a UTG limper who calls a shove from Player 6, who is on the button after Player 2 only made a 3x the BB raise even with a limp from UTG.

So, you limp, Player 2 raises and Player 6 jams and the action gets back to you. I don't mind a call or fold here because you have blockers to aces and kings and Player 6 may just be going for a squeeze. But, I think I lay this down because it is early in the tournament and I think I find a better spot than a coin flip (which is likely considering the 3 betting range of the button. I think he 3 bets with TT-QQ and a lot of suited broadway hands and flat calls with his best hands like AA and KK because he is in position)...plus I don't know what Player 2 is going to do.

I think Player 2 makes the worst call in this spot because he raised and Player 6 jammed and UTG player has called (which screams strength). Player 2 should have know his 99 was beat at this point and thrown them away (even if he did manage to win the pot this time).

 

[xOneCoolHandx]

If you can't beat these type of players you should pick another hobby. Why do people complain about this?

I wasn't complaining. I LIKE these players at my table. I was simply ASKING if anyone else has observed that this strategy has become more prevalent in todays game. No bitching, no whining, nothing like that. Just an OBSERVATION.

 

[xOneCoolHandx]

Thinking about what you're saying, Im actually realizing that same thing. I see a shift in game strategy to just 2 moves in the grand scheme of play.

Between the early poker boom till now, the either "push in position" or fold strategy is becoming more and more dominant

Exactly. I think there are probably "coaches" and others out there that are probably promoting this kind of play. I also agree that it may not be a bad strategy if you are only pushing premium hands and folding the rest but spreading it over several tables at once...this makes sense because you lower your variance and maintain a +EV if you are always getting it in with a premium hand, even when you are generally only being called by other premium hands (which is what you expect, but then I see a lot of players calling these jams pretty wide and seemingly donating chips).

I wonder if this is a trend that is going to continue and potentially spill over into live poker.

 

[oneybiggs]

It doesn't affect my game at all and it certainly does not disturb my mindset. I was just pointing out the influx (or maybe growth) of this strategy. We all used to see it in freerolls all the time and in some other games, but it was something players did to build a stack and then they would settle down. This crop of players ONLY play push fold. I make it work to my advantage when one of these players are at my table.

So you were,my bad.
Ok ,i think it comes down to players with a lot of online experience realizing that the backwards odds online really are stacked against us,so in time they give up playing seriously and try to get some from the hands that should lose.I find myself doing it quite often now for that exact reason,close to half the time maybe i just cant be bothered battling seriously when i can see im on the prescribed downswing...thats what i seriously think is pushing it from freerolls more into buy-in games.

 

[Szachajevy]

Just wanted to share a hand.

What do you think. Push and play or not and would you call with my hand?

Hand example

Sigh

at this time in tournament if I where you I would fold, it's just not worth to risk there. And going all in is always risky. But much worse call is from player with 99

 

[Garfield52]

I guess I have been the victim of these push and play type players. I have folded some good cards when they go all in that turn out would have been the winner if I stayed in. After losing a couple of hands that way, I figure that I would go for it with hands like AA or KK or QQ and the push and player wins with 2 n 7 off, or 3 and 9 off with a good flop

 

[ninjareal]

If you can't beat these type of players you should pick another hobby. Why do people complain about this?

this is funny :aetsch::dancing:

 

[ninjareal]

It is an all or nothing strategy employed by players who are BAD at post flop play.
Take all their chips when the opportunity presents itself.


Its also the best way to minimize your EV, when this is the your only strategy. I have only seen ONE player who plays optimal push/fold strategy without a post flop strategy.
Most (95%) or more do not follow proper push fold - evident by how OFTEN they are shoving preflop.


Its quite obvious by how often they shove preflop - they are compensating for their inability to play post flop, however reducing mental stress by employing this strategy is a very interesting aspect. Makes it easy - shove/fold. Although some players find exhilaration in the stress of post flop play. :stupid::afraid:


:top:


This 100%. :top:


At those stakes it's an insta call. Players are shoving any Ace, any two broadway and any pocket pair.
However the limp from UTG is just asking for 8 other players to join you in the hand.
Any player with a single 5, any 6, any 8 any 9 and Q, any 7 who decided to come along, if the two opponents didn't shove, would have won the hand, would have taken your flop cbet and possibly more.

I think it's just variance , some players will always call/shove any ppair, as seen in this topic and in the hand itself, calling AK when already one shove is what you should be wary of, he could have any ppair, KK etc, and means you're already flipping for 3 remaining aces , so like 12% or something ... I agree to an extent on the limp , if you're gonna do it consider risks and what you'll do to a shove, secondly, if you had made 3x pre and player shoved inot that raise it may be easier for you to get away from AK , he will be reppin AA KK since he 4bet shove preflop , thoughts to consider

 

[ninjareal]

But I think you guys are missing the point. It is not just certain spots. This is a basic strategy that is being employed. If this player comes into the hand, it is for his stack. Not just in certain spots but EVERY hand this player plays. I will give these guys credit, they do wait for premium hands. They are not just jamming any ace or low to low/med pocket pairs. I have actually toyed with the idea of trying this strategy in some freerolls and microstakes games just to compare the variance to my normal game, but I don't think I would have the patience to put in the necessary number of tournaments and hands.

no harm in trying it, a lot of players do this, and you know they have AA KK QQ JJ at least, it makes them predictible, however other players/victims at the table miss this info and just keep calling with worse range, I like them at my table

 

[Ianmacca99]

I must admit I've not seen this often as a default strategy you occasionly get it in freerolls the early stages you see it a lot or when stack sizes dictate but not from the get go getting in 100 bigs that often

 

[0546474]

Many players participating in freerolls and micro-limits cannot discard cards from small pairs to 10, so push-fold is a very profitable game strategy with a certain range and number of chips !!!

 

[gruenhagen]

I have been noticing a influx of push or fold players lately. We are all used to this in regular freerolls and microstakes games but I am talking about players using this as their default playing strategy. I think this is a terrible strategy but I keep seeing these type players making deep runs into tournaments. I'm sure y'all have noticed these players too since I see several of them in the CC freerolls. What are your thoughts on these players?

there a lot of them at pokerstars too ... mostly in the las vegas free rolls ... sometimes its pretty annoying :/

 

[Pimp 007 x]

I call them donkeys. lol

 

[puzzlefish]

They're not donkeys. Not all of them anyway.