Poker isn't about cards...

VMVarga

VMVarga

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I think cards only matter if you want to be a long term winning player :)


This little truism sticks in my craw. It actually is more of a semi-truism. Cards do matter, but they are not all that matters. That is much different than not mattering at all.

I know the point Brunson was trying to make, but I call bullshit on the idea that anyone can win a MTT without looking at their cards. There has to be a better way to illustrate the point that the cards you get are only part of the picture, and not the whole thing, because this way is too much of a distracting brag. People lose sight of what he was trying to get across and instead focus on this idea that someone is claiming to be so damn good at playing cards that they don't even have to look at them. That isn't really what Brunson was saying, but it can certainly seem as though he was bragging about how good he is--and he certainly is good, but I don't think anyone is THAT good, to be able to take a mtt without looking at their cards. It is hard enough to win one while looking at the cards, so not looking at them, it honestly seems like an impossible task, unless of course you either cheat or you just get the luckiest run of cards ever.

I dare someone to try this live to prove me wrong. I would love to see that and be proven wrong.
 
VMVarga

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There was an article about a girl who put sticky tape on her monitor where her whole cards are and took the tournament without looking at the cards. Google for it


Annette Obrestat. She claims to have done it on stars in 07, but i couldn't find documentation or evidence of the actual feat. I call bull shit.

Either this is a hoax and a lie, or she actually did it by having one of the absolute luckiest runs of all time poker history, period. I don't believe she actually did it. I'm sorry, but I just don't. The statistics involved are so absurd, which is why it is hard enough to win when you are actually playing the cards. Also, it says she bested only 179 other players, which is not really that impressive to me. That's not that many more people than we get in the daily CC game, which is a totally different monster than the mtt's with 2500 entrants, or even 500-700. Had she had to play a game with 500 or more entrants, she would have had to play nearly twice as long, give or take.

It also says this little feat has never been repeated. This here is what really makes me most skeptical, and makes my bullshit meter go through the roof. Anyone who took science courses and paid attention knows that a conclusion and results are no good when peer reviews fail to ever repeat them.

Until someone either does it live with witnesses, or is filmed doing it online and we can verify the claim and results, I simply do not believe it, and neither should any of you, unless you are comfortable with being a gullible rube.


Thinking about it more, I wouldn't say it is impossible, but so unlikely and difficult that it actually works against the claim it is trying to make--that poker isn't really about the cards at all. Not looking at the hole cards, the strategy I would go with would be to try to build my stack by bluffing. Find patterns at the table and target the players who fold to re-raises most often, and just make small check raises and re raises to try to take the pot without ever going to showdown. You would want to avoid showdown as much as possible, for obvious reasons--if it isn't obvious to you...showdown would be very risky because the odds will always be greater that your hand is worse than your opponents hand, if only because players rarely take total bluffs or A high hands to showdown; and because you would have to just assume that you do not have a pair or made hand, the odds are always going to be in favor of the opponent who can actually see their hand and decide if they think it's good enough to take to showdown. So, long story short, showdown = higher risk when hole cards are hidden.

This basically amounts to a handicapping, and a fairly significant one, and is a foolish thing to do for any other reason than to try to replicate Obrestad's supposed results, or to win a stupid prop bet. I see no benefit to doing it. The argument that it could make you better at playing your opponents rather than getting too focused on the cards is not very strong either, because you could argue that a player does not need to play without seeing their hole cards to practice playing their opponents rather than the cards. Although I could see it being a pretty entertaining prop bet.

Finally, let me ask this: If everyone started doing this, and you had a table with all 9 players opting to play without looking at their hole cards, you are no longer even playing poker, but instead you are playing a very strange form of bingo. Hey, you could even have the player who wins the hand stand up and say "BINGO!!!"
 
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juninhigh

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Well i think poker is combination of elements, position, betting, bluffing, folding good hands and having some good cards sometimes, if someone notices that you're always enter a pot super aggressive (ok you could build that image, but sometimes you're just "out flopped") that can gives them intel and you will broke.
 
VMVarga

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Well i think poker is combination of elements, position, betting, bluffing, folding good hands and having some good cards sometimes, if someone notices that you're always enter a pot super aggressive (ok you could build that image, but sometimes you're just "out flopped") that can gives them intel and you will broke.


I think once you get to the mid and high stakes, the players are paying far more attention to patterns, and you definitely need to develop some kind of method or system of your own to provide a varied form of playing and betting to make it harder for them to pick up on any patterns that you may or may not be aware of yourself.

Because those higher stake levels have fewer players, the regulars who always play together probably start to compile notes and profiles on their various regular opponents, either with traditional note taking or with the help of HUDs. So it becomes more important to be self aware of what you are doing and what patterns you might be falling into.

For example, if you tend to make 3x opens with your most premium range, but tend to make min opens with most of your other hands, no matter how you personally rank them amongst your overall range, then it could become quite easy to know when you are holding something killer. But if you make an effort to mix in some limps with your premium hands, and mix in some 3x opens or 3-4 bets with your less than premium hands, you can throw a wrench in their note taking and profile making. Just be careful not to make these switch ups at predictable intervals, otherwise you are just providing a slightly more difficult pattern to ID and exploit.
 
juninhigh

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I think once you get to the mid and high stakes, the players are paying far more attention to patterns, and you definitely need to develop some kind of method or system of your own to provide a varied form of playing and betting to make it harder for them to pick up on any patterns that you may or may not be aware of yourself.

Because those higher stake levels have fewer players, the regulars who always play together probably start to compile notes and profiles on their various regular opponents, either with traditional note taking or with the help of HUDs. So it becomes more important to be self aware of what you are doing and what patterns you might be falling into.

For example, if you tend to make 3x opens with your most premium range, but tend to make min opens with most of your other hands, no matter how you personally rank them amongst your overall range, then it could become quite easy to know when you are holding something killer. But if you make an effort to mix in some limps with your premium hands, and mix in some 3x opens or 3-4 bets with your less than premium hands, you can throw a wrench in their note taking and profile making. Just be careful not to make these switch ups at predictable intervals, otherwise you are just providing a slightly more difficult pattern to ID and exploit.
Damn you're good writer and player kkkk i couldn't agree more and know i'm going to pay more attention changing gears at predictable intervals hehe, cheers !
 
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I almost agreed with you, but it misses one word on your statement, it should be "poker isn't ONLY about cards" . Because you need them, and good hands, to win something.
 
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its a roller coaster with the cards, it can be from the worst to the money and the best cards to not making it very far. Even sometimes you can be top 10 for very long time getting good cards like pocket QQ, KK or even AA and you still pop before the bubble. or it can be the other way around with the shortest stack making it to the Money.
 
cleder7

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I think this is more relevant in live tournaments, where several other factors imply about the game. Online games are more technical and mathematical, and the cards are important. So I believe there are distinct abilities for the two ways of playing..
 
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A little story for these, blaming the cards...

I was watching Kevin Martin yesterday afternoon and he was talking about Doyle Brunson and how that man can claim to be able to win a tournament without even watching his cards. Was funny but also real...

Yesterday I played a 55¢ hyper tournament online. I finished 9th on over 1500 players. I never got better then pocket 10's as a pair.

I've got lucky with wome bluffs and I got my super hand : :7d4::2c4: once... and I hit foul house on the flop and the quads on the turn!

Some nights I get pocket A's twice and I don't even make it to the bubble..

So.... the cards won't change, but our game can! :)

-TRP-

Tournaments are mostly about winning coin-flips and not running into AA when you shove KT on the BTN with 10 BB's.. :) Cash games, on the other hand, run a higher effective stack, so you don't see Rivers as much, or all-ins preflop. I won a $7 SnG turning my "show hand" off so I couldn't see my hole cards, it was pretty fun. TBH, you learn a lot when you're mostly paying attention to the other hands, and not being able to see your hole cards makes you do that. I don't think that statement about Brunson winning a tournament without looking is true, but that'd be awesome!!
 
andy112211

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The Aggressor

The very first live tournament I ever played (~136 players.) I took down and never had to show my hole cards until I was in heads-up play at the final table. That had a lot more to do with my chips versus the field and my betting position. For example I am pretty sure, as luck would have it, I was the aggressor in almost ever hand I played.

That gave me automatic respect from a field that was largely afraid to bust out.
Hi Magic Dick, I agree, aggressive poker is good poker. I am finding out that being aggressive in position wins more often. I think this is true, I am trying to be more aggressive at the table and it is helping me out a lot. I would always just limp in no matter what my cards were, I was a weak player. I am trying to change that and it is working.
 
MagicDick

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Hi Magic Dick, I agree, aggressive poker is good poker. I am finding out that being aggressive in position wins more often. I think this is true, I am trying to be more aggressive at the table and it is helping me out a lot. I would always just limp in no matter what my cards were, I was a weak player. I am trying to change that and it is working.



In reality it should be your goal to NEVER have to show your cards. It means you are playing position super well and basically never have to flip a coin for your tournament life. The added benefit is no one gets to put you on a hand range because they have never seen your hole cards.
 
ChickenArise

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It isnt about cards until you go to showdown, then its all about the cards.
 
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ravhin

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luck is great but skill is key.
 
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Damn you're good writer and player kkkk i couldn't agree more and know i'm going to pay more attention changing gears at predictable intervals hehe, cheers !


Hey thanks for the compliments.

Looks like you're making it work. I saw you won the game last night, good job. I shouldn't have engaged with that clown who started jamming with 57 suit. Oh well. Good luck, see you out there.
 
juninhigh

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Hey thanks for the compliments.

Looks like you're making it work. I saw you won the game last night, good job. I shouldn't have engaged with that clown who started jamming with 57 suit. Oh well. Good luck, see you out there.


I'm cracking the code man, it was great playing with you, yes he got lucky a lot of times but like you said it i would call all day long with the hands you had, anyway i'll DM let's play again soon enough.
 
VisionNutz

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Yo bro not to sound rude or anything but his whole article is out of line first of all you talked about how you played a $0.55 hyper turbo tournament and how poker is not about the cards so in those two statements right there I can't take you seriously


So yeah like if you're going to be playing a 55 said hyper turbo then in some weird unorthodox type of way your theory is Alexa me right where the cards don't matter because the type of Turbo that you're playing the blinds are going to chew you out and you're going to ship with King 7 off suit or queen 7 offsuit or Jack 9 suited and that's going to be the bottom line you're either going to cash money like whatever a dollar or maybe make it deeper and make like $5 what you need to do is stop writing dumb stuff save up a bankroll and stop playing 55 cent turbos
 
Rob Hobson

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As I've read in books, this feat belongs to a woman, a Norwegian player called Annette Obrestad in 2007. Maybe Brunson made it a few times, like many already did, but she made it at the entire tournament.

Check the article below (fm C.Player magazine):

The year 2007 was special for the young Annette "Annette_15" Obrestad. In addition to winning the first Main Event of the World Series of Poker Europe, the 18-year-old Norwegian set a Sit And Go where she only saw her cards once. With the victory in the online event, the player has eternalized the expression "Poker is a game of reading people".

In an interview with PokerListings portal, the professional recalled the historic achievement based on betting standards and positions.

"After I had won I thought: 'I have to put this in some forum. I do not think it's ever been done. " Today when I play a live tournament and someone releases: 'It's true that ...'. I know what this is about. I am more recognized for the championship that I won without seeing the cards than for the WSOP triumph, "said the European.

Sure poker is a game of skill, of people - long term, and this arises at the live tables, but nowadays, with so many people playing poker in the planet, the cards still play their role. But the skill will always be the king in long term.

Best of Luck
 
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