Home game help?

4Aces

4Aces

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Ok, so this happened in a home game today and i need some advice so that it never happens again.
We were playing a 5 player sitNgo with a £25 ($50) buyin, and winner takes all, everyone starts with 1,500 in chips.
About 45 mins into the game this hand came about.

The player UTG raises 3 times the BB, it gets folded around to the BB who calls.
The flop comes A92. One player bets the other one raises then the other re-raises allin. Then the other guy flips his cards over (BUT DOES NOT SAY CALL) he flips over A9.
The other guy then jumps up and flips over 22 (thinking the other guy called). So the guy with A9 sees the pocket twos and obviously folds.
Now it just kicked off big time, one guy saying if you flip your cards over straight away then that means call, and the other saying i didnt call, i just showed you my cards.
The argument went on forever, and i (not knowing what should happen here) suggested they chop the pot, but they both said no.

Anyway this is what happened. After about 15 mins of arguing the player with A9 said he will call.
The turn and river didnt bring an A or 9 and he was eliminated. I thought it was all over, but then the guy who lost the pot pushed the chips to the guy who won the pot (pretty fiercely), and the chips went all over. This caused another big argument and almost a fight.

Please help, i dont want this to happen again!! What are the rules, if a player goes allin and the other player insta flips his cards over... Does this mean call??? :eek:
 
vanquish

vanquish

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You lose the pot if you flip your cards over.
Whatever was in the pot when the guy flipped over A9 should have gone to the other guy.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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this i got from rec gambling



I have actually had this same deal happen at a home game I was involved
in.
Only when it happen at the table I was playing the player in your
situation WAS bluffing. The player who flipped over his cards said that he
found out
in a casino that when you are put all-in heads up you can show your cards
without calling, and said almsot the exact thing verbaitum as your guy
said "I can show my cards to try and get a reaction."


The next time I was in a casino I asked about it and the dealer said he
would regard that as a call. The floor manager said that if the player
were to preface the flipping by saying "I'm still thinking." that he might
be able to do it, but if the other player had iterrepeted it as a call and
flipped his cards over then that would make it a call. It is not somthing
I will ever try when real money is involved.

Anybody else have experience with this?
On Apr 18 2004 10:46AM, Adam Ehrenworth wrote:




how I understand this is if the guy flips the A9 and says im thinking or something along those lines then it is ok, if he just flips them and other guy flips his no matter what its a call.
 
4Aces

4Aces

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You lose the pot if you flip your cards over.

What? Are you sure? I can see this rule should apply in the middle of a hand but the other guy was allin.


I actually remember seeing Brian Townend show his cards to Paul Wasica to try to get a read on him, it was on high stakes poker. But again this was when the other player was allin.
I would of thought it would be ok if a player goes allin then the other player thinks for awhile, then flips over his cards. But in the game i was in he flipped over his cards as soon as the other player said allin.
 
S

S.Anthony

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Well, I am in no way a professional or a rules-expert, but correct me if I'm wrong:

This guy who flips A9, I think he did a very stupid-wise thing..if you come to think about it, flipping those A9 without saying anything could mean:

- I fold, but here's what I had.
- I call, now let's see yours.

Now if I was that guy with deuces, I'd probably ask him if he was calling or folding, because there's no way I could guess, and I'd probably very upset with that move because it could be misleading or indicating at the same time.

I say that guy with A9 should've been auto-folded by the other members, which isn't nice when you're friends and all - but that's what he deserves for trying to be tricky.

Cheers
 
RedKing

RedKing

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In the casino that I played in, flip over your cards means your cards are dead, and you lose the pot. Some jackass one time try that move on me in the Casino, I was happy to see he only had a high pair against my set, I didn't show any emotion and hoping the guy would call me, but another player on the table yell that his hand should be dead, and the floorman came in and declare his hand was dead. I "lost" $100 because of that. lol.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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its going to be the choice of the floor person if its a call or a dead hand.
 
Jack Daniels

Jack Daniels

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From Robert's Rules of Poker, version 10...

22. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized.

My thoughts...
The floor person's (or home game's host) decision will be based on more than just flipping up the cards. How was it done? If he flipped them over onto the table in from of himself, it could reasonably be called a "call". If he tossed them in the direction of the dealer (and hence the muck) while flipping them over, it could reasonably be called a "fold". In either case, it was the host's obligation to make the decision even if you didn't know what to do. Right or wrong, mgmt decisions are final at the time the ruling is made. If you aren't sure your decision was 100% correct (and don't have rules handy), you still make it the best you can, it is binding, and you keep it that way the rest of the night. Then you go look it up for sure for next time. In my home games and tournaments I make it clear that house rules are posted, I keep copies of Robert's Rules of Poker handy, and that my decisions are final. I also appoint a second in command, so to speak, to rule on any issues if I am one of the players involved.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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What? Are you sure?

Actually, this has occured many times on many different levels, and has gone many different ways.

Ex: In a tournament, a player went all-in, opponent asked floor manager if he was allowed to flip his cards over to see his opponent's reaction and the floor manager said no. (I do not remember the names of the players, but it was heads up for a championship)
On the other end, Matusow showed Negreanu his hand while deciding whether or not to call his all-in on the Heads-Up Poker Championship, and he was not penalized.

AFAIK the floor manager can choose to deal with this how he chooses, but I would suggest you make the rule that flipping your cards over without declaring your action beforehand would render your hand dead in your home game (this is the easiest to enforce and the most logical).
 
heatfan03

heatfan03

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in one of our home games someone said im flipping my cards but not calling necessarily in the same situation. the over guy said ok and that was it. This guy most likely was calling but then folded cause of what he saw. In my opinion why wouldnt u say u arent calling. he knew what he was doing i think.
 
Jack Daniels

Jack Daniels

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On the other end, Matusow showed Negreanu his hand while deciding whether or not to call his all-in on the Heads-Up Poker Championship, and he was not penalized.
Just for clarity, the National HU Poker Championship rules specifically state that one player can show the other player his cards in hopes of getting a reaction or read in order to make a decision to call or fold.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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Just for clarity, the National HU Poker Championship rules specifically state that one player can show the other player his cards in hopes of getting a reaction or read in order to make a decision to call or fold.


Yeah. It's like, one tournament allows it, another doesn't, the third doesn't care one way or the other.
I think it's kind of stupid, but OP should just decide on one of the two for the home game so a fistfight doesn't break out.
 
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