difficulty transitioning from online to live

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grari

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I've been grinding 100nl online for the better part of the past year and I have been very successful at it making around $1000 a week. I recently transitioned over to live and I've been struggling a lot. I'm down something like 6-7 buyins in 2/5, and I'm up a little in 1/3. Maybe I'm just running bad, but I think I may be doing something wrong.
I think why I did so well at live is because you can pick up pots a lot more preflop with 3-betting, and most flops you see heads up or 3-ways at most. I'm pretty good at heads up play. Live, you will see many more multiway pots, it's harder to get bluffs through, and if you don't make hands it will be hard to get paid. Also, if you nit it up and only play the nuts your opponents notice and will not give you action. It seems to me like 100nl online is actually quite easier than 2/5 live, but maybe it's just variance.
I would be very interested in hearing people's thoughts.
 
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eetenor

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I've been grinding 100nl online for the better part of the past year and I have been very successful at it making around $1000 a week. I recently transitioned over to live and I've been struggling a lot. I'm down something like 6-7 buyins in 2/5, and I'm up a little in 1/3. Maybe I'm just running bad, but I think I may be doing something wrong.
I think why I did so well at live is because you can pick up pots a lot more preflop with 3-betting, and most flops you see heads up or 3-ways at most. I'm pretty good at heads up play. Live, you will see many more multiway pots, it's harder to get bluffs through, and if you don't make hands it will be hard to get paid. Also, if you nit it up and only play the nuts your opponents notice and will not give you action. It seems to me like 100nl online is actually quite easier than 2/5 live, but maybe it's just variance.
I would be very interested in hearing people's thoughts.

Thank you for posting

Many players have the issues you are having when they transition. Part of it is always lack of volume and part of it may be as indicated by some of your statements not adjusting correctly to live dynamics.

You mention multiway pots after 3 bets this is usually a sizing adjustment that we have to make live.
Live if there is a raise and a call our 3 bet can be 2x 3x 4x 10x pot to get 1 player to call.

When playing live with bluffs we are targeting only a few/ sometimes no players on our table. We have to know they can fold before we try to see if they will fold in any given situation. Of course we always bluff the "they cannot call anything" spots- we will still get called sometimes live.

When playing NOfoldem holdem if we do not make the best hands we do not win.
So when we tighten up we do it by turning part of our 3 bet range into calls and folding 90% of our 3 bet balancing range not by reducing our range to only playing premium hands as AA KK AK versus 4 players is not the nut hand it should be.

When playing live Nofoldem holdem equity realization is more important than absolute hand strength. We need hands that when we miss the flop and are led into we have reason to continue.

A simple example is AQs AJs is a much better hand than AK off in this format. Why? 4-5 way single pair hands seldom win on the river and we are much more likely to stack our V with a flush over flush than we are AK over AX even the worst players know AK beats A5 so we seldom get three streets of value with AK.

As we are not going to be able to pick up small pots very often and our premium hands are going to get cracked more often we want to be in more pots with nut makers so we can make up our equity stacking other players. 63 goes up in value multiway but remember two pair on the flop is not the nuts multiway.

87off suit is a great hand to try to flop a straight with because the other players will stack off with 65 when we do. 87off is better in NOfoldem than 87 suited because you will be over flushed more often by Axs Kxs Qxs Jxs 10xs 9xs all of these combos are possible.
The reverse is true the above flush combos even go way up in value as long as we remember to only play a big pot with what should be the nuts. We know this when holding 96s by the V fearing the flush not wanting to stack off versus a 3 flush board.

Nofoldem holdem plays more like Omaha- 5 way pots the nuts are out there so we do not want to put our stack in with 3rd nuts or TPTK unless we know for sure our V is weaker than that.


So building pots early multiway is not the best way to max equity. When our V will pay off 2x 3x 10x pot on river when we make the nuts we do not have to use a linear approach to betting to get stacks in. This is of course dependent on the strength of the V's range by the river.
The above strategy is in reference to the part of our a range that benefits from getting some folds without hitting. Live we have to discount the effectiveness of getting folds significantly so we do not build pots to leverage a players stack as they do not approach the game that way very often.

The opposite is true when we have the nuts early our V chase big bets early so we bet pot sized bets early so we get more equity by the turn as they will often fold when they miss rivers completely. We play sets this way. We play two way draws this way all high equity hands that we flop.

This is of course how we attack the player dynamics that you described above.
If the table dynamics change we change our strategy with them.
When playing live we play the players tendencies first then the GTO math.
If one player will call when I shove AA for 100BB 50% of the time preflop I will always shove AA.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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grari

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Thanks. This was helpful. I think I'm going to continue grinding 1/3 for at least another week or two, before I try 2/5 again. I had two massive coolers yesterday at 1/3, but somehow I was still able to leave the session up a couple hundred. While I am comfortably bankrolled for 2/5, it still is also a big adjustment playing a game more than 5x as big as my regular online game, so it also hurts more when you lose. 6-7 buyin downswing at 100nl online may not happen all that often, but when it does it doesn't really bother me since I am infinitely bankrolled for that game. In 2/5 it actually does start to make a significant dent in my bankroll. Since 1/3 seems softer than 2/5, and because I can handle the swings better, I think I'll stick to it for a while more.
 
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vittopio

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It's just a round of variance! A player who beats nl100 online should calmly beat the field of nl500 at least!
 
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Criminal Bizzy

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There is a theory in live poker called the "pain threshold". This is an observation about what it will take to get people to fold at a table. Start out with your regular 3x open, if you get to many callers then start opening for 4x, if you get to many callers then start opening for 5x, etc. You keep increasing your open raise until you get to a spot where you get a reasonable amount of folds. If the open raise starts to get to high for you then start focusing on your post flop and outplay these players.
 
AKQ

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Increase your bet sizing to get heads up to a flop, don't be a nit


Always try to isolate.

And its not 2/5 ,10/20 , online or live
Its the players...
You gotta "FIX" the table
Start ridiculing and making fun of people for their bad plays, truly humiliate and hit the nerve.
They'll tighten up or implode themselves
Did I tell you poker is a psychological game as well?

On a diferent note
You can dump 3 buyins raising every hand in a cash game and the table may go nuts as well for the rest of the night
 
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lolshovaments

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since you are not mentioning any technnical aspects of your nl100 game, we can't imagine what is happening. talk more about relevant infos about your play and maybe somebody can help.

How many hand do you played overall, what is your nl100 winrate, how many hand you grind weekly... etc.
 
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dregan

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Maybe you are bad at hiding your cards with your behavior and the enemy is reading you.
 
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grari

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since you are not mentioning any technnical aspects of your nl100 game, we can't imagine what is happening. talk more about relevant infos about your play and maybe somebody can help.

How many hand do you played overall, what is your nl100 winrate, how many hand you grind weekly... etc.
The more that I recount the hands that I played live, I think that the heavy majority of my downswing is just running bad. But, let me shoot a couple of examples between how in a way online is easier than live.
1) One of the first 2/5 sessions I played there was this woman who was literally playing any two cards preflop and was also running incredibly hot. early position raises for around 4-5 bbs (a massive preflop open by any standards), this preflop calling station woman calls. I have AK of clubs in one of the blinds. I make a standard 3-bet, and the original raiser folds and the station calls. Flop is 10-3-5- rainbow (or something to that effect) with one club. I bet about 35% pot and she calls. I now have about half my stack invested in the pot. Turn is a Jack of clubs, so now I have nut flush draw, a gut shot, and two overs (and AK is sometimes best hand here). Very clear choice of shoving all in. I'm OOP and it's a pretty clear shove for about 1 pot size bet. She tanks forever, and finally calls with JQo. She wins the hand. To be clear, she overcalled a large 3-bet with JQo, floated the flop with nothing, and then banked top pair on the turn and made the hero call. If this was online, I just pick up the pot preflop with the 3-bet. In a live game my opponents realize their entire equity so there is more variance.

In the long run, yes, I'm the winner, but I feel like short term variance is a lot heavier in live play.

2) I have KK and invest most of my stack, but of course my opponent (a different session) hits two pair on the river with 10-4o. Online, even the worst opponents are not playing 10-4o.

Several other hands like these as well. Like I said, maybe it's just a standard run bad, but the variance is brutal. Sometimes it's easier to play against tighter players who fold more often and you can pick up smaller, but more pots.
 
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lolshovaments

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The more that I recount the hands that I played live, I think that the heavy majority of my downswing is just running bad. But, let me shoot a couple of examples between how in a way online is easier than live.
1) One of the first 2/5 sessions I played there was this woman who was literally playing any two cards preflop and was also running incredibly hot. early position raises for around 4-5 bbs (a massive preflop open by any standards), this preflop calling station woman calls. I have AK of clubs in one of the blinds. I make a standard 3-bet, and the original raiser folds and the station calls. Flop is 10-3-5- rainbow (or something to that effect) with one club. I bet about 35% pot and she calls. I now have about half my stack invested in the pot. Turn is a Jack of clubs, so now I have nut flush draw, a gut shot, and two overs (and AK is sometimes best hand here). Very clear choice of shoving all in. I'm OOP and it's a pretty clear shove for about 1 pot size bet. She tanks forever, and finally calls with JQo. She wins the hand. To be clear, she overcalled a large 3-bet with JQo, floated the flop with nothing, and then banked top pair on the turn and made the hero call. If this was online, I just pick up the pot preflop with the 3-bet. In a live game my opponents realize their entire equity so there is more variance.

In the long run, yes, I'm the winner, but I feel like short term variance is a lot heavier in live play.

2) I have KK and invest most of my stack, but of course my opponent (a different session) hits two pair on the river with 10-4o. Online, even the worst opponents are not playing 10-4o.

Several other hands like these as well. Like I said, maybe it's just a standard run bad, but the variance is brutal. Sometimes it's easier to play against tighter players who fold more often and you can pick up smaller, but more pots.


I understand the feeling. And before go any further in this little review, I should say some aspects of your way of thinking are absolutely right. But poker, like we all know, is not a game with perfect information and the randomic elements play a huge role.

Short term poker and long term poker deserve different approaches by the player. Forget the math a little bit. Just a little bit, not 100%. This is short term game and people are mainly recreational players trying to have a good time.

In a daily grind you can play 5 thousand hands online easily, opponent from NL100 won't tank your shove with QJo and stuff like that.

But playing 30 hands/hour like live poker is other game.
 
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eetenor

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The more that I recount the hands that I played live, I think that the heavy majority of my downswing is just running bad. But, let me shoot a couple of examples between how in a way online is easier than live.
1) One of the first 2/5 sessions I played there was this woman who was literally playing any two cards preflop and was also running incredibly hot. early position raises for around 4-5 bbs (a massive preflop open by any standards), this preflop calling station woman calls. I have AK of clubs in one of the blinds. I make a standard 3-bet, and the original raiser folds and the station calls. Flop is 10-3-5- rainbow (or something to that effect) with one club. I bet about 35% pot and she calls. I now have about half my stack invested in the pot. Turn is a Jack of clubs, so now I have nut flush draw, a gut shot, and two overs (and AK is sometimes best hand here). Very clear choice of shoving all in. I'm OOP and it's a pretty clear shove for about 1 pot size bet. She tanks forever, and finally calls with JQo. She wins the hand. To be clear, she overcalled a large 3-bet with JQo, floated the flop with nothing, and then banked top pair on the turn and made the hero call. If this was online, I just pick up the pot preflop with the 3-bet. In a live game my opponents realize their entire equity so there is more variance.

In the long run, yes, I'm the winner, but I feel like short term variance is a lot heavier in live play.

2) I have KK and invest most of my stack, but of course my opponent (a different session) hits two pair on the river with 10-4o. Online, even the worst opponents are not playing 10-4o.

Several other hands like these as well. Like I said, maybe it's just a standard run bad, but the variance is brutal. Sometimes it's easier to play against tighter players who fold more often and you can pick up smaller, but more pots.


AHHHH live play I to knew these hands well.

Hand 1

As per my earlier post -we do not build pots by expecting to win getting some folds.

This hand is a perfect example of some of the adjustments I suggested earlier.

1 preflop bet sizes have to be very large to get folds or we flat to trap with drawing hands like AKs. OOP with AKs if I raise it will be to check shove flop or shove flop but mostly as I know they do not fold 1 pair I flat to trap pre and try to keep the pot small until I hit.

Semi bluff betting results in much viewer folds live than online so it is not better than check calling OOP.
As played I would check flop we can and should jam on the brakes when we miss as our V are not tricky and when they do try to be tricky they do it so poorly that there bluff sizing let's us know to check jam that flop. Which is the only way we win this pot maybe? these players talk themselves into calls like ohhh check shove they have AK I will call with my QJ I might hit it.

Yes it is a weird way to play this way but when our V do not fold we do not try to get them to fold using standard lines.
As our V do not fold we do not have to max equity on every hand. Instead we max pot size when we are ahead. If our V will give us their stack in one hand we wait for that hand. It may not be that day as we do not see enough hands live. So we wait until the next day.
Again if the player dynamics change we change.


That is the perception issue we have as we move to live from online- you take the lines you are used to taking because you will play enough hands in one session to recover from losing hands online. Also we will be picking up small pots online- as you said- so that helps to reduce the size of our swings but live on most tables we do not get to win those small pots. So our swings are bigger each day and we have to have a multi session (day) plan to compensate for that. That means protecting our bankroll by not playing a max equity strategy every hand.

Again it seems weird to adjust to what seems like a weak way to play but you are now not playing in the 2-5 game because you fired too many bullets. Had you reserved your bullets for another day you would be maxing your equity opportunities at the 2-5. How? By being there to stack players that make second best hands with QJ off on the turn. Live we make bank by punishing second best hands.

One more point regarding the hand your V has TT 33 55 JJ in their range as played- they do not fold 99 88 77 66 on the flop and they give you credit for AK on the turn so it would not have been a surprise had you said they showed you 66 on the river.

Versus that type of V we do not take the line you took.
We assume that type of V until they prove otherwise.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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grari

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If you are winning at 1/3 and losing at 2/5, stop playing 2/5.
Agreed. I've had two $1000+ winning sessions in 1/3 so far, and only one losing session, which is good even for 2/5, so I'm all in favor for playing lower stakes if win rate is higher. Maybe after a few more sessions if I'm crushing 1/3 I'll try 2/5 again. Going to Vegas next week and will be staying at the MGM Grand. Hope their games are good.
 
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grari

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AHHHH live play I to knew these hands well.

Hand 1

As per my earlier post -we do not build pots by expecting to win getting some folds.

This hand is a perfect example of some of the adjustments I suggested earlier.

1 preflop bet sizes have to be very large to get folds or we flat to trap with drawing hands like AKs. OOP with AKs if I raise it will be to check shove flop or shove flop but mostly as I know they do not fold 1 pair I flat to trap pre and try to keep the pot small until I hit.

Semi bluff betting results in much viewer folds live than online so it is not better than check calling OOP.
As played I would check flop we can and should jam on the brakes when we miss as our V are not tricky and when they do try to be tricky they do it so poorly that there bluff sizing let's us know to check jam that flop. Which is the only way we win this pot maybe? these players talk themselves into calls like ohhh check shove they have AK I will call with my QJ I might hit it.

Yes it is a weird way to play this way but when our V do not fold we do not try to get them to fold using standard lines.
As our V do not fold we do not have to max equity on every hand. Instead we max pot size when we are ahead. If our V will give us their stack in one hand we wait for that hand. It may not be that day as we do not see enough hands live. So we wait until the next day.
Again if the player dynamics change we change.


That is the perception issue we have as we move to live from online- you take the lines you are used to taking because you will play enough hands in one session to recover from losing hands online. Also we will be picking up small pots online- as you said- so that helps to reduce the size of our swings but live on most tables we do not get to win those small pots. So our swings are bigger each day and we have to have a multi session (day) plan to compensate for that. That means protecting our bankroll by not playing a max equity strategy every hand.

Again it seems weird to adjust to what seems like a weak way to play but you are now not playing in the 2-5 game because you fired too many bullets. Had you reserved your bullets for another day you would be maxing your equity opportunities at the 2-5. How? By being there to stack players that make second best hands with QJ off on the turn. Live we make bank by punishing second best hands.

One more point regarding the hand your V has TT 33 55 JJ in their range as played- they do not fold 99 88 77 66 on the flop and they give you credit for AK on the turn so it would not have been a surprise had you said they showed you 66 on the river.

Versus that type of V we do not take the line you took.
We assume that type of V until they prove otherwise.

Hope this helps
:):)
I think you're right. This was helpful. Hey, I've made all my money in poker by going for thin value whenever I can, so I will definitely look for those spots more, and not run semi-bluffs if my opponents are too stationy. Like I said, now that I look back at my sessions, I think it would be an honest assessment to say that at least half of my losses at 2/5 were due to bad variance. Another hand where my opponent hit a 3 outer on the river after we got all the money in on the turn comes to mind (my first live 2/5 session). About another quarter was lost due to bluffs ran bad (completely avoidable in hindsight), and the other quarter was just blinding out and missing flops.
Another point someone made is to raise big enough preflop where you are only going to get one or two callers. That is definitely a strategy people employ, but the problem with that is you are going to have to only play premium hands that way, and sometimes it's just going to fold around if you raise too big, so you will never get any action anyway. My view of preflop raising is that if you are going to get the same amount of callers preflop by raising 3xbb vs. raising 5xbb, then might as well raise 3x so you can play more hands, and you lose less if you miss the flop. I play a very solid preflop range, and I by no means play too many hands, but the hands that I do play, I don't want to invest a considerable portion of my stack with non-premium holdings (i.e suited connectors from late position, AJo A10s, middle pocket pairs). Would rather try to pick up blinds with 3x raise (online I raise to 2.5x btw), and play a normal pot when I get called even if a lot of people call.
Another adjustment I have had a hard time with is the straddle. I mean seriously, I buy in for 100bbs give or take, and now the person has to cut my stack depth in half. I have no interested in playing 50-60 bbs deep in a cash game. I don't know why the casinos allow that. That has also been a source of my variance in 2/5. I'm randomly thrown into a 2/5/10 game and if I lose some money in those hands, it's not like I can just make up for it easily.
 
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In my experience, when you're playing the lower limits at live poker, you should be playing a much more value orientated game. Bluff less, value bet more.
 
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grari

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Another dominating sessions at 1/3 today. I think I've pretty much gotten a hold of live poker now, and like I said, a lot of my run bad at 2/5 was just bad luck. Seems like there's more fish at 1/3, but I should still have a grip on 2/5 when I try it again after another couple of 1/3 sessions. Another mistake I was making earlier was calling in the small blind when it limped around to me with junky hands. It adds up after a while, and best just to fold them. Who knows, maybe I'll go back to 2/5 and realize that the games are so much more difficult, that it's more profitable to play 1/3. I'm averaging around $800 a session at 1/3 now, and I'm not even running that hot. I've gotten my fair share of bad beats and stuff, but my opponents don't know what going for value means, and they let me off easy. For example, today I turned the nut straight on a hand, the board paired on the river, and based on the way the hand played out, my opponent was able to basically win the minimum with a full house. If it was the other way around, my opponent would be broke. At 2/5 it seems like people go for more value, which makes it a tougher game as well.
 
Luvepoker

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Thank you for posting

Many players have the issues you are having when they transition. Part of it is always lack of volume and part of it may be as indicated by some of your statements not adjusting correctly to live dynamics.

You mention multiway pots after 3 bets this is usually a sizing adjustment that we have to make live.
Live if there is a raise and a call our 3 bet can be 2x 3x 4x 10x pot to get 1 player to call.

When playing live with bluffs we are targeting only a few/ sometimes no players on our table. We have to know they can fold before we try to see if they will fold in any given situation. Of course we always bluff the "they cannot call anything" spots- we will still get called sometimes live.

When playing NOfoldem holdem if we do not make the best hands we do not win.
So when we tighten up we do it by turning part of our 3 bet range into calls and folding 90% of our 3 bet balancing range not by reducing our range to only playing premium hands as AA KK AK versus 4 players is not the nut hand it should be.

When playing live Nofoldem holdem equity realization is more important than absolute hand strength. We need hands that when we miss the flop and are led into we have reason to continue.

A simple example is AQs AJs is a much better hand than AK off in this format. Why? 4-5 way single pair hands seldom win on the river and we are much more likely to stack our V with a flush over flush than we are AK over AX even the worst players know AK beats A5 so we seldom get three streets of value with AK.

As we are not going to be able to pick up small pots very often and our premium hands are going to get cracked more often we want to be in more pots with nut makers so we can make up our equity stacking other players. 63 goes up in value multiway but remember two pair on the flop is not the nuts multiway.

87off suit is a great hand to try to flop a straight with because the other players will stack off with 65 when we do. 87off is better in NOfoldem than 87 suited because you will be over flushed more often by Axs Kxs Qxs Jxs 10xs 9xs all of these combos are possible.
The reverse is true the above flush combos even go way up in value as long as we remember to only play a big pot with what should be the nuts. We know this when holding 96s by the V fearing the flush not wanting to stack off versus a 3 flush board.

Nofoldem holdem plays more like Omaha- 5 way pots the nuts are out there so we do not want to put our stack in with 3rd nuts or TPTK unless we know for sure our V is weaker than that.


So building pots early multiway is not the best way to max equity. When our V will pay off 2x 3x 10x pot on river when we make the nuts we do not have to use a linear approach to betting to get stacks in. This is of course dependent on the strength of the V's range by the river.
The above strategy is in reference to the part of our a range that benefits from getting some folds without hitting. Live we have to discount the effectiveness of getting folds significantly so we do not build pots to leverage a players stack as they do not approach the game that way very often.

The opposite is true when we have the nuts early our V chase big bets early so we bet pot sized bets early so we get more equity by the turn as they will often fold when they miss rivers completely. We play sets this way. We play two way draws this way all high equity hands that we flop.

This is of course how we attack the player dynamics that you described above.
If the table dynamics change we change our strategy with them.
When playing live we play the players tendencies first then the GTO math.
If one player will call when I shove AA for 100BB 50% of the time preflop I will always shove AA.

Hope this helps
:):)

Absolutely golden response here. I could not have said it any better and probably not as well.
 
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eetenor

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I think you're right. This was helpful. Hey, I've made all my money in poker by going for thin value whenever I can, so I will definitely look for those spots more, and not run semi-bluffs if my opponents are too stationy. Like I said, now that I look back at my sessions, I think it would be an honest assessment to say that at least half of my losses at 2/5 were due to bad variance. Another hand where my opponent hit a 3 outer on the river after we got all the money in on the turn comes to mind (my first live 2/5 session). About another quarter was lost due to bluffs ran bad (completely avoidable in hindsight), and the other quarter was just blinding out and missing flops.
Another point someone made is to raise big enough preflop where you are only going to get one or two callers. That is definitely a strategy people employ, but the problem with that is you are going to have to only play premium hands that way, and sometimes it's just going to fold around if you raise too big, so you will never get any action anyway. My view of preflop raising is that if you are going to get the same amount of callers preflop by raising 3xbb vs. raising 5xbb, then might as well raise 3x so you can play more hands, and you lose less if you miss the flop. I play a very solid preflop range, and I by no means play too many hands, but the hands that I do play, I don't want to invest a considerable portion of my stack with non-premium holdings (i.e suited connectors from late position, AJo A10s, middle pocket pairs). Would rather try to pick up blinds with 3x raise (online I raise to 2.5x btw), and play a normal pot when I get called even if a lot of people call.
Another adjustment I have had a hard time with is the straddle. I mean seriously, I buy in for 100bbs give or take, and now the person has to cut my stack depth in half. I have no interested in playing 50-60 bbs deep in a cash game. I don't know why the casinos allow that. That has also been a source of my variance in 2/5. I'm randomly thrown into a 2/5/10 game and if I lose some money in those hands, it's not like I can just make up for it easily.


Thank you for responding.

Great job thinking deeply about your prior sessions so that you can filter out variance losses and potential strategy losses.

You state:
raise big enough preflop where you are only going to get one or two callers. That is definitely a strategy people employ, but the problem with that is you are going to have to only play premium hands that way,

If we know we are going to be raising big with AA KK QQ AQ we still balance this range.
So we could also balance with a sim favorite A5s. 45s LP allows us to have a hand that Ax will put a lot of money in the pot when we hit.
All we need is the table to see us play 45 once. That is live poker!
We play it for a big open LP then discard the hand face up when the flop comes KJx and the 1 caller leads on flop or turn. Make a show of it get every one on the table to pay attention before you muck then muck it face up. Practice mucking your cards and accidentally flipping one over if no one is calling when you have 45s. Live we can do things that make our villains adjust incorrectly.

You state:
if you raise too big, so you will never get any action anyway.

When our V fold too often we raise a wider range so if you know everyone folds to a 5x raise when Seat A opens too wide and then 2 others call we do not even need to look at our hand we just make it 5x.

The math of above -pot is 10.5 We raise to 15 how often do we need to get folds to break even just based on preflop? 60% 4 times we lose 15- 6 times we win 10.

If they fold 70% we ae printing money.

If we get caught stealing we only 5x premium after that. If they do not call us we go back to stealing. If Seat A only raises premium we do not raise we AA crack with those odds.

Playing the players is the key in live. Their mistakes are often easy to identify. A highly successful cash player in Los Angeles after being a big winner online in the early days said live is so slow that I just spend my time at the table thinking about how to stack each player individually then I do that.

Hope this helps.

:):)
 
G

grari

Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 3, 2021
Total posts
26
Thank you for responding.

Great job thinking deeply about your prior sessions so that you can filter out variance losses and potential strategy losses.

You state:
raise big enough preflop where you are only going to get one or two callers. That is definitely a strategy people employ, but the problem with that is you are going to have to only play premium hands that way,

If we know we are going to be raising big with AA KK QQ AQ we still balance this range.
So we could also balance with a sim favorite A5s. 45s LP allows us to have a hand that Ax will put a lot of money in the pot when we hit.
All we need is the table to see us play 45 once. That is live poker!
We play it for a big open LP then discard the hand face up when the flop comes KJx and the 1 caller leads on flop or turn. Make a show of it get every one on the table to pay attention before you muck then muck it face up. Practice mucking your cards and accidentally flipping one over if no one is calling when you have 45s. Live we can do things that make our villains adjust incorrectly.

You state:
if you raise too big, so you will never get any action anyway.

When our V fold too often we raise a wider range so if you know everyone folds to a 5x raise when Seat A opens too wide and then 2 others call we do not even need to look at our hand we just make it 5x.

The math of above -pot is 10.5 We raise to 15 how often do we need to get folds to break even just based on preflop? 60% 4 times we lose 15- 6 times we win 10.

If they fold 70% we ae printing money.

If we get caught stealing we only 5x premium after that. If they do not call us we go back to stealing. If Seat A only raises premium we do not raise we AA crack with those odds.

Playing the players is the key in live. Their mistakes are often easy to identify. A highly successful cash player in Los Angeles after being a big winner online in the early days said live is so slow that I just spend my time at the table thinking about how to stack each player individually then I do that.

Hope this helps.

:):)
I definitely agree that the more limpers there are, the bigger raise size you should make it. I do employ that plenty, but of course only with raise-worthy holdings. It's strange, when there's no straddle in a 1/3 game, multiple people are going to call a raise to around $15 which is 5x, but when there is a straddle, you may get everyone to fold with a raise to $20 which is only a drop more than 3x. It shows people's lack of understanding of pot size and bet sizing.
 
Goku55

Goku55

Rock Star
Joined
Nov 26, 2020
Total posts
137
It’s a lot different

You will encounter a lot of people in live some will put class you as far as skill and some will just be a total dumpster fire rec. a lot of the time people can exploit live tells and if you’re playing against someone who isn’t concerned about bankroll it’s an easy way to get stuck for piles.
 
Rockyfour

Rockyfour

Rock Star
Joined
Apr 3, 2021
Total posts
274
I've been grinding 100nl online for the better part of the past year and I have been very successful at it making around $1000 a week. I recently transitioned over to live and I've been struggling a lot. I'm down something like 6-7 buyins in 2/5, and I'm up a little in 1/3. Maybe I'm just running bad, but I think I may be doing something wrong.
I think why I did so well at live is because you can pick up pots a lot more preflop with 3-betting, and most flops you see heads up or 3-ways at most. I'm pretty good at heads up play. Live, you will see many more multiway pots, it's harder to get bluffs through, and if you don't make hands it will be hard to get paid. Also, if you nit it up and only play the nuts your opponents notice and will not give you action. It seems to me like 100nl online is actually quite easier than 2/5 live, but maybe it's just variance.
I would be very interested in hearing people's thoughts.
When people play Poker live, they have a lot more info to make soul reads. Some people are intuitively, very good at making soul reads. So what you end up with, is basically oddities, like Daniel Negreanu (for example), that can basically tell you what cards are in your hand.

So if your playing a kid, that essentially knows what cards you have, the game becomes a bit different lol.

Although, there are some people that Daniel can't really read very well, or anyone probably.

Point is, it's a different animal, with a different skill set.
 
G

grari

Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 3, 2021
Total posts
26
A little bit of an update: I've been crushing 2/5 lately. I think I learned my lessons from my rough start and got some of the bad variance out of the way. Thanks for all your help.
 
N

Nagulo

Rising Star
Joined
Apr 21, 2021
Total posts
24
I've been grinding 100nl online for the better part of the past year and I have been very successful at it making around $1000 a week. I recently transitioned over to live and I've been struggling a lot. I'm down something like 6-7 buyins in 2/5, and I'm up a little in 1/3. Maybe I'm just running bad, but I think I may be doing something wrong.
I think why I did so well at live is because you can pick up pots a lot more preflop with 3-betting, and most flops you see heads up or 3-ways at most. I'm pretty good at heads up play. Live, you will see many more multiway pots, it's harder to get bluffs through, and if you don't make hands it will be hard to get paid. Also, if you nit it up and only play the nuts your opponents notice and will not give you action. It seems to me like 100nl online is actually quite easier than 2/5 live, but maybe it's just variance.
I would be very interested in hearing people's thoughts.
you are very right dear, online games eliminate a factor that is the expectations that one develops at the table but it is not always achieved when you already have to wait for these decisions in which you have to improve, and although there are already many years in which I no longer played live but if it is very difficult to enter a comfort online which will be more difficult because stress and nerves play a trick on you at all times
 
D

dukgen

Enthusiast
Joined
May 31, 2021
Total posts
89
Live games play slower than online. Other live players may also have a read on your gestures.
 
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