Are you all naturally good mathematicians?

[TheCol]

I know there is a ton of math in poker but I tend to just go with my gut in some situations. I do know my outs but not the total odds in every situation in poker. I really havent had to use all of those math problems to play my poker. I pretty sure I will use it later one in my poker but im pretty happy with how im playing these days.

 

[BigJamo]

Its not so much about "Maths" but just about "Numbers"

 

[Poker Orifice]

Math is crucial to poker

 

[S3mper]

...not at all I just "get" how it works...

from you other posts, I see you "get" what a 5:1 or 4:1 drawing hand is...
...and I'd assume you "get" what you are holding...
so how exactly do you know to call or fold?
It's actually simpler than it looks...

ok, your draw is 5:1 to hit...what size bet do you call and to what size bet do you fold to a $100 pot?

well there's a hint in the 5:1

...if you have all the time in the world, a pencil and paper and a calculator handy:
you start by finding the "break even point" - higher than this value fold, lower call
the total pot size (or the base pot plus the bet and call) per every 6 calls times "how much" per call
or
pot/(total calls * cost per call)...
so for $100 pot...
it becomes: ($100 + 2X)/(6 * X) where "X" is how much per call

Yuck! the math sux even with all the time in the world AND a calculator...
but let's continue...

so to "break even" the net ratio will be one..win as much as you lose
so...
($100 + 2X)/(6X) = 1
pull out the (yuck) algebra and solve for X:

multiply both sides by 6X we get
6X = 100 +2X

add -2X to both sides....

6X-2X = 100
or

4X = 100

divide both sides by 4
X=25

Does that work? Let's see...
in 6 similar hands,
Pot $100, villain bets $25, you're sitting on a 5:1 draw call $25

so you put in $25 six times or $150
out of those 6 times you win once: the $100 the villain's bet of $25
and your call of $25 for a total of $150
...you risked $150 and won $150 so you broke even

Good grief...high school algebra does have a real purpose in life! :shot:

...but good grief...we don't have all the time required to do that...or do we??
look back and you'll see that with a 5:1 it simplified to
6X-2X = 100
...and that 6X is ALWAYS the both sides or the 5:1 ADDED together
...and that 2X is ALWAYS twice the bet...
and since it's ALWAYS written as 5:1 or 4:1 or even (yuck) 2.33:1
...so really we're ALWAYS adding 1 to the left side BEFORE subtracting 2
...which will ALWAYS be the left side minus 1

...and then we ALWAYS divide the pot by this number!


...so all of a sudden, if you know you're 5:1 and the pot is $100
then 5-1 is 4...
100/4 (easy maths, no?) is 25 so $25 is "break even"...$26 fold, $24 call..piece of cake, no?

poker life would be a piece o cake if the pot was always $100, no?

5:1 becomes 4 .... pot of $100 divided by 4 the break even point is $25
4:1 becomes 3 ... pot of $100 divided by 3 the break even point is about $33
2.33 becomes 1.33...pot of $100...ummm..yuck..well wait...
1.33 is "one and a third" or 4/3 pot of $100 divided by 4/3 is...
*gasp* that algebra stuff is handy again...
it's the same as 3/4 * 100 (remember that whole invert and multiply crud?)
or the break even point is $75!

So pot of $100, bet of $35...
5:1 draw? fold
4:1 draw? fold
2.33:1 draw? CALL!

rut rho...what about a pot of $300,$500 or $1200? :banghead:

..actually still easy...the pots are just 3,5,and 12 times as big..
..so the break even point is just 3, 5 and 12 times the break even point for $100

so $300 pot: 5:1 draw becomes $75, a 4:1 is ~$99 and a 2.33:1 is $225
and so on and so on

I quit poker

 

[PokerPete]

I quit poker

you're welcome...
...now you have more time for "other" online things

 

[S3mper]

you're welcome...
...now you have more time for "other" online things

Poker was the only thing saving me from doing too much of those things :joyman:

 

[XXPXXP]

the maths requirements are more and more when your buyin level up.
but don't need to naturally good at maths, but need to find a way how to find problem and slove it and applied the results to tables.

may doing the maths work when not playing poker...GL

 

[S3mper]

When I need math playing live I take out my phone and use my calculator

Dealer always yells at me... I'm trying to figure out how many bb's I got!!!

Let's see....

 

[z28_RoadRage]

In my opinion (for what it's worth) if you can calculate what your gut, heart and mind tells you to do.... screw math.

 

[0ntop]

I would say that it is an advantage for sure to know your odds and how they relate relative to position. There are a lot of instances where you may be ahead or behind, and unless you know your opponent is drawing to one or two cards or you are drawing to many, the difference in odds don't make a huge difference, but rather the sequence of how the hand is played. It is just as much about what you are representing in most hands to what you are holding, especially in mid rounds of tournaments. You should try to get called down if you want to, and try not to if you aren't looking for one. Mathematics comes in to play allot with bet sizing, more than it does the chance that your opponent is holding AA when you have KK, which seems to happen more often than it should online. Also, if your game is unorthodox like it should be as far as opening hands, you can make your opponents reads harder to make for them.

 

[0ntop]

I would say that is how I played for a long time, before I had the aha moment and realized how important it is to be aggressive mid game to build a stack, which requires living by the odds theories. There is only so far playing only premiums will get you into the money, you have to open up in position, and catch some cards in order to earn the top spots. Bottom Line.

 

[0ntop]

The genius blow up, I love to watch the tears roll!

 

[bluejay2220]

You know, I never used the math when I started playing, Just judged whether it felt like a good spot. But, if you are good with arithmetic you should do just fine.
"EV" is the "mean". You would figure which cards you need, how many are in the deck, and find the odds of that/those cards hitting. Algebra is just a short cut for Arithmetic.
Also, people figure in their pot odds, is the pot worth it to take the risk, or how much should a player bet to hook a fish, this is where we get value.
Remember, you want to maximize your winnings, and minimize your loses. A good fold when you are beat is minimizing your loses, in other words, saving money.

 

[deluns28]

you only need math to understand it.. for me it is always on self improvement and your inner game. Every average poker player knows the math behind it and it all boils down on your decision taking into consideration all the factors in hand.

 

[PokerPete]

When I need math playing live I take out my phone and use my calculator

Dealer always yells at me... I'm trying to figure out how many bb's I got!!!

Let's see....

...add: "and trust me...you don't want me to have to take off my shoes and count my toes..." to that and you might have a winner

Hint: If you're a Harrington fan, stack chips in 5 or 10 "M" sets...
make one stack then makes the others equal by sliding over the known stack for each value...
...number of stacks times 5 or 10 is your M factor

 

[zgaiba23]

I am good at math but I still make my share of bad decisions!!1

 

[bengan95]

Math is very important, but i think u can stay alive without it. but it certainly really good and helpt you in difficult spots.

 

[diegomistake]

i really back and maths maybe that is the thing missing on my game i will star reading about math and poker

 

[TheBigFinn]

Being good at math helps, but it isn't what makes the best players. I think the thing all the top pros have is a great memory. They can play back in their mind how the villains played eight hour ago and compare to how they are playing now.

 

[JKawai]

Thanks all, some good points.

I made this though to make it easier for myself... (see attachment)

 

[JKawai]

I've added a new bit at the bottom based on something I read in Sklansky's Theory of Poker about combining your suspected opponent's odds of drawing with your own to get new odds, e.g. if you think villain is going for a flush on the river.

Can anybody tell me if my excel calculations are correct?

For ease, these are some basic results

Opponent's odds to 1: 1
Your odds to 1: 1
Opponent's percentage therefore: 50
Your percentage therefore: 50
Your new percentage with consideration to opponent's; 25
New odds to 1: 3

 

[freestocks]

I bluff that I'm doing math while playing poker.

 

[gus201]

Math ?????
How much math do we need and how dependent are we to let the math make our decisions and not use our reads for the main contributor ?
Be honest here does the math make your main decision and not your reads ?
I get paid off so much from math players that cant read other players ( me ) at the table .
They become robotic, predictable and never mix things up. One thing i can count on with math players is I can keep them feeding the pot and they will pay me off .

Just my opinion because too many players are told and rely on math to make their main decisions. I have a little dilemma with math players because of my experience with some players. yes you need it and it should Help you but never base anything sully on just the math . Reads position and past play in them positions and so should all contribute to your decision.

Just my opinion if a player wants to be well rounded you need to have all them tools sharpened .

Have good day at the tables and may your skill prevail.

 

[kefir]

I work with a lot of math professionally. ^^ I would not get discouraged if math is not your strong point. I mean a little bit you do need it. But this little bit is pretty easy to get. And you need a lot more to succeed in poker. I mean, if you are pretty average in math, but excellent with your mental game, you will beat someone who is a math genius, but gets on tilt every second hand.

 

[Ben_Dover]

Can anybody tell me if my excel calculations are correct?

For ease, these are some basic results

Opponent's odds to 1: 1
Your odds to 1: 1
Opponent's percentage therefore: 50
Your percentage therefore: 50
Your new percentage with consideration to opponent's; 25
New odds to 1: 3

This isn't necessarily related to the thread but was weird enough to deserve a post. In your 1:1 case, say you've got 46 cards to draw from and 23 help the hero, and the other 23 remaining help the villian. Then any math wiz can easily calculate the various outcomes. (50/50). I don't see why your odds would reduce to 25%. But weirder: what if 10 cards help only the hero, 10 cards help only the villian, 20 cards help neither, and 6 cards help *both*. Calculate that. There are always 4 outcomes: hero hits, villian hits, neither hits, or both hit! What is Sklansky worried about?