Suited pocket cards rarely turn into a flush, so they only add about 4% to your EV. Yet in every chart that I see they are valued much more highly than unsuited cards. Why???

Poker Brat doesn’t seem to place a high value on them, though.

You Tube

It's a nice change seeing Phil Helmuth not yelling about how his opponent played a hand badly.
I would add that suited connectors play better postflop than AJ, KJ and similar hands that can get dominated easily.
But he is right that they are overrated.

good question, maybe they get better depending the opponents and your relative stack. They can be good for bluffing and may pay off.

The way I value those cards is that you can't always be predictable so I play them when I need to change it up and be looser and sometimes steal pots and the odd making hands.

Originally Posted by xrhstos

It's a nice change seeing Phil Helmuth not yelling about how his opponent played a hand badly.
I would add that suited connectors play better postflop than AJ, KJ and similar hands that can get dominated easily.
But he is right that they are overrated.

I don’t think that small suited connectors play well, very rarely win, and I have stopped playing them below 98. I also play A2, A3, A4, and A5 suited because they have a chance of making a nut flush or straight, plus the equity of an ace.

That extra equity makes a huge difference against an opponent's range especially in all in situations.

hi hi
i believe that matter not how many pots you win
but matter how much monies/chips
with suited connectors you have opportunity make a flush which usually wins... if hit that flush is usually a huge pot

Originally Posted by Dutchman54

Suited pocket cards rarely turn into a flush, so they only add about 4% to your EV. Yet in every chart that I see they are valued much more highly than unsuited cards. Why???

Poker Brat doesn’t seem to place a high value on them, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTyFTCNYuMg

If your opponent is holding AK and you have AQo and if flop shows K, then you are dead. Your chances of winning the pot almost finished. But in the same scenario if you have AQ suited and two cards of the same suit appear at flop then you still have a chance to beat your opponent.
I think suited cards gives you an extra strength to proceed with the game even when it appears that you are already down. And probably that is one of the reason they are valued much more highly than unsuited cards.

If you're going well, suited hands are worth playing to steal a blind. But it's easy to lose sight that others might have the A of K suited, play into you, and steal your stack.

I love how Phil Helmuth can turn even a short poker tip video into a pity party for Phil Helmuth

It's all sound advice, but being a basic "when to play/not play suited connectors" three minute video, he doesn't mention specific times when they are quite playable.

For example, if you can find yourself isolated against a strong pair that raised small PF, you can see a Flop cheaply with one of the hands that have the best chance of beating a big pair. It's still only a small chance, but if the situation is right and a 3.3 to 1 shot makes sense, it's a great hand.

Originally Posted by mtl mile end

I love how Phil Helmuth can turn even a short poker tip video into a pity party for Phil Helmuth

It's all sound advice, but being a basic "when to play/not play suited connectors" three minute video, he doesn't mention specific times when they are quite playable.

For example, if you can find yourself isolated against a strong pair that raised small PF, you can see a Flop cheaply with one of the hands that have the best chance of beating a big pair. It's still only a small chance, but if the situation is right and a 3.3 to 1 shot makes sense, it's a great hand.

That is interesting MTL.

Because my opinion is too play suited connectors multi-way. I want 3 or 4 or more players in the hand to really make it my while - get good pot odds - and possibly win a giant pot.

Suited connectors are very well concealed. And while a player may put you on a straight draw or a flush draw they rarely can put you on both. At least I always fail to put my opponent on both draws simultaneously.

I don't really want to play 87 suited against KK - even isolated - unless I will rep an ace if it comes out. Usually you will hit one pair on the flop or turn and then you are a dog against a big pair.

If I'm going to go for implied odds I want at least a couple of big stacks that can double me up in the hand.

Just the way I like to play them.

I do have a friend and any time she is in the hand I put her on suited connectors or one gappers. She loves to play them profitably OOP. I will muck AA or KK to her in the hand everytime I see the board straightening or flushing out. But other players in the hand don't know how she plays.

Good luck !

Because you can make a straight or a flush with them. Maybe even a straight flush.

Originally Posted by Poker_Mike

That is interesting MTL.

Because my opinion is too play suited connectors multi-way. I want 3 or 4 or more players in the hand to really make it my while - get good pot odds - and possibly win a giant pot.

Suited connectors are very well concealed. And while a player may put you on a straight draw or a flush draw they rarely can put you on both. At least I always fail to put my opponent on both draws simultaneously.

I don't really want to play 87 suited against KK - even isolated - unless I will rep an ace if it comes out. Usually you will hit one pair on the flop or turn and then you are a dog against a big pair.

If I'm going to go for implied odds I want at least a couple of big stacks that can double me up in the hand.

Just the way I like to play them.

I do have a friend and any time she is in the hand I put her on suited connectors or one gappers. She loves to play them profitably OOP. I will muck AA or KK to her in the hand everytime I see the board straightening or flushing out. But other players in the hand don't know how she plays.

Good luck !

Yup, I, and Phil Helmuth, agree.

I'm just saying it's a 3.3 to 1 shot vs a big pair. Would you play a small pair in the same situation? Your chances are considerably worse with a small pair.

Another benefit of playing suited connectors, as Phil says in the video, is that they're easy to fold if you miss or partially hit the flop. It's the kind of hand where position and number of opponents are less important, and hitting the board is more important (than some baseline figures for some imagined general situation).

Originally Posted by KristaK

hi hi
i believe that matter not how many pots you win
but matter how much monies/chips
with suited connectors you have opportunity make a flush which usually wins... if hit that flush is usually a huge pot

Let me give an example: with 87 suited you're a 41-59 underdog to KJ unsuited (which is hardly a premium hand). If you have 87 unsuited it changes to 37-63. That 4% is going to change your results 1 in 25 hands. Is that really going to change your fortunes? You can lose a lot of chips when you flop 1 or 2 cards that help your hand but you ultimately don't hit your draw.

I know: I've made bust-em hands. (With 87 suited one time -- one time -- I flopped a boat.) But in the long run it seems like an expensive approach, one to be saved perhaps for when you're deep stacked.

people will chase flushes all day every day sometimes unfortunately they will hit

anyway you get more chances catch flush with suited cards than without. Flush can be beaten with full house which one much harder to catch.

Not to say whether suited cards will be a flash, but off suited cards are to say it's different, so that I have to do a different way of thinking.

They’re more valued because they’re ahead of hands that aren’t a higher pair going to the flop. Now these hands depend clearly on position, you’re opponents, table dynamics and you’re image. Now just sitting at a table with let’s say 44. You’re UTG on a table that’s been aggressive. You’ll more then likely want to lay this down preflop. Now let’s say you’re on the button with the same hand and UTG raised 3x. He’s been fairly active from this position. I’d put a 3bet in here as long as I had built a tight image. Now let’s say same situation but UTG has been playing tight. You should be calling looking to set mine or outplay Villian postflop. There’s other stipulations in there but low pockets have a certain value according to what‘a going on.

4% preflop. But on flop if you miss pairs but have draw you already know you do you have ~40% vs his defending range.

Also its better hand to bluff if you have backdoor flush draw.

Its very simple. Because they make flushes more often than non-suited cards, and you can make a flush on a 3 card of same suit board (less scary) than 4 card of same suit.

I'm inclined to go with Dutchman's statistical/mathematical breakdown here - in other words, Phil Helmuth is right, suited connectors ARE highly overrated.

Originally Posted by Dutchman54

Let me give an example: with 87 suited you're a 41-59 underdog to KJ unsuited (which is hardly a premium hand). If you have 87 unsuited it changes to 37-63. That 4% is going to change your results 1 in 25 hands. Is that really going to change your fortunes? You can lose a lot of chips when you flop 1 or 2 cards that help your hand but you ultimately don't hit your draw.

I know: I've made bust-em hands. (With 87 suited one time -- one time -- I flopped a boat.) But in the long run it seems like an expensive approach, one to be saved perhaps for when you're deep stacked.

Originally Posted by Dutchman54

Suited pocket cards rarely turn into a flush, so they only add about 4% to your EV. Yet in every chart that I see they are valued much more highly than unsuited cards. Why???

Poker Brat doesn’t seem to place a high value on them, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTyFTCNYuMg

We are constantly pushing small edges and suited cards add to implied odds and to potential nuttiness so they add value. Higher cards often add substantially more value than suitedness so keep suited cards in their proper perspective.

Everything is relative to bet sizing in poker so its important not to over value your hand relative to the amount of money you have to invest to realize that value.

good speaking using mathematics you said everything a card with the same suit has higher EV due to the greater possibility of forming a flush.

so when we have, for example, a flush draw and a straight draw at the same time, we have a good chance of winning the hand on the turn or the river. and increasing our outs from 6 to 15, I think this is very good.


a semi-bluff on the flop for example is much better with a flush draw.

I think they have good value because they rarely hit top pair, but they can hit strong draws, if you hit your draw you cant get a lot of value against top pair, even if you don't hit a draw you can win the pot if no high cards come in the flop by bluffing

In MTT's suited connectors can be profitable when several players are in the pot and you can get in at a reasonable cost. Like set mining you hit you continue and when you miss you can easily bluff or fold them out.

Cuz they are a piece of a str8 flush or royal

I found it comical how Hellmuth called out Negreanu on this lol

He is right though, suited connectors are over-valued far too often by many and Negreanu's "small ball" approach did popularize playing these types of hands. However, even Negreanu noted the drawbacks with playing this style. Agreeing with Hellmuth, Negreanu prefers to play these hands in position. Negreanu's play style here is a risky one for sure. His play-style is hoping on getting paid off against top pair and times where he hits the board hard, but even Negreanu acknowledges that you need the ability to fold even your made hands like flushes if the action becomes too much (don't forget how good Negreanu is at hand reading).

Too often will Negreanu (or any amateur playing smaller suited connectors like 98s) hit a flush, but then someone with a higher flush will have him crushed. What makes this work for Negreanu and not the average player is that he will recognize the situation and fold his made flush! Playing suited connectors requires a lot of post-flop ability that many players simply do not posses. It is not easy to hit your hand and still have to fold.

What makes this profitable for Negreanu is his style of play to attack the blinds (which these hands might be good for doing) and then adjust in many cases. The opponents might think Negreanu is playing way looser than he actually is and then he capitalizes on them overplaying their hand like top pair.

As one might have figured out, including suited connectors like this into regular play requires a change in play style/table image because you'll be playing a lot more hands. There is also a danger in becoming way looser than you might want. If you begin to play hands like 98s, then 75s is basically the same thing or at least 76s right? Next thing you know, you are playing hands like 32s and shocked when you flop a 5-high straight but lose the hand! Even more likely to be the case with something like you holding 98s and the flop comes QJT rainbow; you just hit your straight, but AK has you dominated with the nut straight!

They can be useful to play, but you need a ton of discipline to make them profitable long term.

The title of this thread just doesn't make sense. How is it even possible to have a suited pocket pairs? If they are pair they should be on a different suit.

I'm half and half on this, either your climbing the ladder or in the lobby.

In the case of 2 large cards, it doesn't really matter (preflop), since (AQ, AK ..) because if they are not of the same suit, you still act with them. I typically have 7-8s, 9-10s, and different well-combined suited cards have signs. Given the circumstances I like to act into combat with these cards, as my opponent usually doesn’t even count on them, so it can cause surprises that can take away big pots.

And of course for suited pocket pairs is important too... but that's relatively rare!

Originally Posted by johnmaltz19

The title of this thread just doesn't make sense. How is it even possible to have a suited pocket pairs? If they are pair they should be on a different suit.

lol I almost thought the same, but re-read closer. The op titled it "suited pocket cards" and not "pocket pairs." They are probably newer to poker or perhaps even English not a first language. It is a pretty small thing; I'm virtually certain they simply mean suited "hole" cards instead of "pocket." Poker terms "hole cards" and "pocket cards" are often used interchangeably in poker meaning the exact cards you hold. Usually "pocket" is in the sense of pairs, but I don't think this is a requirement - just customarily phrased this way.

...so...suited hole cards

Originally Posted by rj_montana

Это дополнительное эквити имеет огромное значение против диапазона оппонента, особенно во всех ситуациях.

+EV, flash, street, street flash. And if u in pos, u God.

I hope I dont Mix things up but i think its 5% bigger EV in comparison to the same Hand offsuited

Originally Posted by elpolloloco95

I hope I dont Mix things up but i think its 5% bigger EV in comparison to the same Hand offsuited

Actually it varies slightly based on which exact cards and the board texture/runout. 5% more equity sounds too high though. Having holdings suited or off-suit is more like a 2% difference - maybe 3%. It basically makes no difference which is why it is overvalued too often. Even if both your cards are suited, that doesn't mean the Flush will get there for your suit and exactly so that it wouldn't have otherwise.

Here are some examples just to see how much suited or not matters according to the free poker calculations of Equilab:

AKo vs random hand has 65.32% equity while AKs has 67.04% equity. Roughly 2% difference.

JTo vs random hand has 55.25% equity while JTs has 57.53% equity. Roughly 2% difference.

54o vs random hand has 38.16% equity while 54s has 41.45% equity. Roughly 3% difference.

Examples help illustrate how suited versus non-suited isn't actually a huge difference objectively speaking. Why then is there so much emphasis put on suited cards by some players? Yes, extra outs to a possible Flush is nice to have but we already revealed how little equity that matters.

I think the "hidden reason" suited cards are more sought after is because there are less of them. Non-pocket pairs (like AK) have 16 possible combinations that make them. Out of those 16 possible hand combinations of Ace-King possible, only 4 are suited and 12 off-suit. From the perspective of building ranges, it might make sense to only play suited cards if they are on the cusp of playability because you aren't including them as often. This keeps you with a tighter range (for whatever that is worth).

Chances are, most people are going to want to play a powerful preflop hand like Ace-King...suited or not. What about Ax hands though? This is great example of when suited might be a better option if you choose to play lower Ax at all. Say you want to include Ace-Deuce into your default range for a certain position at the table (for whatever reason). Deciding to play any Ace-deuce you get gives you 16 possible hands you might play, but deciding to play only Ace-deuce suited gives you only 4 hands to play (one per suit).

Personally, I don't really appreciate one-handed cards. I play very rarely. If it's one-suit connectors, then I play a lot more often.

I can confirm in the micros they all love these suited hands, even crap like J4s.
If they reach the flush, selective memory will confirm teir play in their minds.
And these sooted cards look so nice, its psychology too.
These players forget: they can easily lose too a higher flush too, when they get there.
But even suited Aces are overrated preflop.

When you have suited cards, you have a 10.9% chance of flush draw on the flop, and a 0.8% chance of flopping a flush

When you have connected cards you have 10.4% chance of flopping an OESD and a 1.3% chance of flopping a straight.

You also have about 4.4% chance of flopping 2 pair or better with any two non pair cards.

So all in all you have about a 21.3% chance of flopping a decent draw and a 6.5% chance of flopping a big hand with a suited connector

Worth playing in multiway flops and if you have about 20 to 1 implied odds in a 2 way pot, more or less. Also worth defending a big blind.

Side note: a one gapper has about 7.2% chance of flopping a OESD and a about 1.0% chance of flopping a straight. So a suited one gapper has a 18.1% chance of a decent draw and a 6.5% chance of flopping a big hand.

Aejones explaines some interesting things around the "justifications" in this video:

You Tube