When to lay down 2 pair?

[lawd]

I find sometimes I lose huge on 2 pair. How should the 2 pair on the flop be played?

For instance, the other day I had a huge lead in a 45man SnG.

My cards on the hand were AKo, I raise 3BB preflop and 2 people stayed in. The Ah Jh and 5 Fall. I raise between 1/2 and 3/4 of the pot. I get called by one player. The next card falls, a Kd. I go all in thinking wow, I have 2 pair and no flush developed! Villain calls, he has QT.


So basically, my question is how do I avoid getting burned on 2 pair hands.
From what I've seen, I think paying better attention to potential straights developing, particularly if I have 2 face cards is key.

What questions should I be asking to find out who has the triple/straight?What sorts of bets should I be making to get the info? How should I treat a 2 Pair? What about a Low 2 Pair? What about high 2 pair? Basically, I want to know how to maximize my gains and reduce by losses with the 2 pair hand.


from what I've seen:
(1)Trips tend to be slow played or disguised as high pairs. Here, the only solution I can think of is to lower my bets to min my losses, of course than I also minimize my gains... The only thing I can think of is that If i have 2p on the flop, the odds of the other person having TRIPS is lower, since I have blockers for 2 of the 3 cards on the flop. Maybe an all-in (to prevent straights/flush forming) and hope someone with the high pair calls?

(2) Straights that develop on the turn/river, betting pattern seems to be CALL --> High/Max Raise. I suppose I could lower the bet amount when the potential straight forms, but then I leave myself open to a huge bluff/steal.

 

[whowantsahighfive]

In your example, it seems the villain made a bad call and got lucky. What were the blinds, stack sizes? How had he been playing?

I'm a believer of playing top two pair aggressively and bottom two even more aggressively. Depending on your stack size and the pot, you may have over valued the two pair in a bad spot.

I've had at least two situations I can remember where I'll be playing a tournament and flop two pair and bet it aggressively and get called by two people. The turn will seem non-threatening and I will bet again, get a call and a 2x my bet re-raise. I'll call and then have the first caller call. I'll check the river then all of a sudden the smooth caller will make a big bet and get called by the re-raiser. I have no choice but to fold because something fishy is going on. The re-raiser will show a set and the other guy has connectors for a flopped straight. It's weird and not exactly your situation but at that point I had enough chips to be okay.

I really think that it just depends on the blinds and your stack to what moves you should make. Good luck in the future!

 

[thepokerkid123]

When someone else's range is stronger than two pair and the pot isn't big enough that you should play for stacks anyway. In other words: very rarely.

In your example playing for stacks was the most profitable option, it was unlucky that he had what he had.

 

[lawd]

In example I am john43. Villain is Jitterbug (who I later found out is a pro that has over 300k in profit...scary) i Mischaracterized in the example i gave a bit, good thing i just installed PT3. sucks because at one point I was leading this tourny 13k and 2nd best had like 4-6k - then I winded up going out 10th!!!. I really messed up. I don't know what to do when I get the huge early lead in tourneys (by playing loose-agressive) other than to just not play except with like AA/KK.
--------------------
HAND #1
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poker stars, $3.25 Buy-in (100/200 blinds, 25 ante) NL Hold'em Tourney, 7 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

jitterbug777: 3,675 (18.4 bb)
john43f94: 10,045 (50.2 bb)
giulio_ge: 725 (3.6 bb)
stojo50: 4,040 (20.2 bb)
larsen 23: 8,064 (40.3 bb)
emanq: 2,315 (11.6 bb)
BillardBucks: 6,326 (31.6 bb)

Pre-Flop: john43f94 is BB with K:heart: A:club:
giulio_ge folds, stojo50 folds, larsen 23 folds, emanq folds, BillardBucks folds, jitterbug777 completes, john43f94 checks

Flop: (575) A:spade: J:club: 8:heart: (2 players)
jitterbug777 bets 200, john43f94 raises to 600, jitterbug777 calls 400

Turn: (1,775) K:spade: (2 players)
jitterbug777 checks, john43f94 bets 444, jitterbug777 raises to 1,200, john43f94 raises to 9,220 and is all-in, jitterbug777 calls 1,650 and is all-in

River: (7,475) Q:heart: (2 players, 2 are all-in)
Results: 7,475 pot
jitterbug777 showed Q:spade: T:diamond: (a straight, Ten to Ace) and won 7,475 (3,800 net)
john43f94 showed K:heart: A:club: (two pairs, Aces and Kings) and lost (-3,675 net)




The reason I did not raise preflp is that I did not want to take on additional risk to my stack since i was in the lead.

looking at my hand history AKo is my worst hand by far!!!!

 

[Weregoat]

The reason I did not raise preflp is that I did not want to take on additional risk to my stack since i was in the lead.

looking at my hand history AKo is my worst hand by far!!!!

You played it terribly in this case. A strong raise from in position against the small blind would have been brilliant. As played you should have raised the flop harder.

I'd like a raise of 4.5-5 BBs here preflop, and an all-in shove on the flop.

Without the preflop raise you should have raised him all-in. He might have counted his Q among outs.

AK is so easy to play in tournaments it is sick. Bet/raise big, hit or miss.
Especially when you have a stack.

 

[naruto_miu]

You played it terribly in this case. A strong raise from in position against the small blind would have been brilliant. As played you should have raised the flop harder.

I'd like a raise of 4.5-5 BBs here preflop, and an all-in shove on the flop.

Without the preflop raise you should have raised him all-in. He might have counted his Q among outs.

AK is so easy to play in tournaments it is sick. Bet/raise big, hit or miss.
Especially when you have a stack.

Can't argue with you on this Idea....But none-the-less I still find AKo/s a hard hand to play...

 

[lawd]

I see that now. I definitely should have raised 4-5bb pre-flop than raise the pot post flop (i.e. 10ish BBs). He probably would have folded.

I tend to get play too defensive when I come up with a big lead early. it was clearly even more risky for me not to raise pre-flop than to not raise with the AK.

 

[Divebitch]

I find sometimes I lose huge on 2 pair. How should the 2 pair on the flop be played?

from what I've seen:
(1)Trips tend to be slow played or disguised as high pairs. Here, the only solution I can think of is to lower my bets to min my losses, of course than I also minimize my gains... The only thing I can think of is that If i have 2p on the flop, the odds of the other person having TRIPS is lower, since I have blockers for 2 of the 3 cards on the flop. Maybe an all-in (to prevent straights/flush forming) and hope someone with the high pair calls?

(2) Straights that develop on the turn/river, betting pattern seems to be CALL --> High/Max Raise.

Do you mean 'check-raise'? If so, I think the turn below would confirm your suspicions

Turn: (1,775) K♠ (2 players)
jitterbug777 checks, john43f94 bets 444, jitterbug777 raises to 1,200, john43f94 raises to 9,220 and is all-in, jitterbug777 calls 1,650 and is all-in
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At any rate, you'd be correct to assune the villian does not have trips, at least not the A or K you hold. Even if remotely possible, you'd never assume AA or KK without a preflop raise. Limping in w/JJ? Doubt it, but conceivable. A set of 5s would be the only possibility most considerable. Odds-wise, I wouldn't put him on that either.

That said, his post-flop bet was a feeler bet. He'd probably not put you on AK with no PFR. AJ? He'll find out soon. He made a mistake calling your reraise, then he got lucky. Could be that a 300k pro just didn't care about this $3 tourney, and was perhaps only there to try out some new strategies, who knows.

I get burned w/AK a lot too, and will often limp as well. But only if there are several other limpers. Very often, they are also limping with A-rag or KQ , and you could be drawing half dead to someone w/a pair of 7s. But I think it was a mistake not to pre-flop raise 1 opponent. Things probably would have developed differently had you done so (i.e. he wouldn't come out with that feeler bet, and he'd probably fold to your bet).

It would be very tough for me to put down the 2 pair, even considering the remote possibilty of the straight, but the check-raise is a very spooky thing. I rarely use it as a bluff, unless some idiot constantly leads out with a smallish raise.

 

[lawd]

^ thanks for your input.

What I meant that a person with an open ended potential straight (4 cards in a row) tends to CALL on the flop bets that are from Min to about 1/2 the pot (depending on stack size, previous aggression of the player involved, etc...). Its rare to see a person who is trying to form a straight raising anything more than a 2bb (unless if they are 1 away from a set also).


now that I think of it, its extremely common for players to bluff a set when 3 same suited cards are on the board. Its also common for players to bluff a straight when there are 3 or more cards in a row or the flop or turn. Its very rare though that anyone bluffs a potential straight with a gap (i.e. 3 cards on board, not in a row), particularly if there is a double gap. I think the reason for this is that a lot of people don't see them as big of a threat, therefore since its not seen universally as a threat it loses its bluff value.

So it may be safe to assume that when a potential straight develops - that does not involve 3 cards in a row (ex. AKJ5)- the person has a straight if they go all in or start raising high. (or they could have hit 2 pair or trips)


so in summary: (1) 2 cards within 4 of one another (ex. AT4) --> Villain calls on the flop for a min to 1/2 pot bet, (2) Turn within the straight range also (but not forming 3 cards straight) (ex. ATK4) --> followed by a MAX RAISE (or check/max raise) = a Straight, or at least fold the high pair.

 

[Tom1559]

In the example you gave the other guy should never have called your post flop bet. His odds to hit the straight did not stack up and he got lucky. I assume you were going to tell us that he had hit trips. In fact with Q10 he should not even have called your first raise pre flop.

 

[Divebitch]

now that I think of it, its extremely common for players to bluff a set when 3 same suited cards are on the board. Its also common for players to bluff a straight when there are 3 or more cards in a row or the flop or turn. Its very rare though that anyone bluffs a potential straight with a gap (i.e. 3 cards on board, not in a row), particularly if there is a double gap. I think the reason for this is that a lot of people don't see them as big of a threat, therefore since its not seen universally as a threat it loses its bluff value.

You did mean 'bluff a flush', did you not? Very insightful on the gap stuff. Can't tell you, and doubt that I'm alone on this, how many times I never saw the straight comin'. A lot more careful in Omaha, as since you're dealt 4 cards, you cannot overlook anything - anything is possible.

In fact with Q10 he should not even have called your first raise pre flop.

He did not pre-flop raise. But yes, he shouldn't have called the post-flop re-raise.

 

[TPC]

The reason I did not raise preflp is that I did not want to take on additional risk to my stack since i was in the lead.

looking at my hand history AKo is my worst hand by far!!!!

The bold above makes no sense at all.

The reason AKo is your worst hand by far is because you play it terrible. Not raising preflop allows the villain in the hand cheap, who knows what he's holding.

Not sure why you are all saying villain shouldn't have called the flop raise? Villain is getting three to one to call that raise with 8 outs to hit a straight, not to mention any implied odds he might factor in if he hits. Also, as far as the villain knows, his Q could be an out too. You have to remember it's blinds vs blinds in that spot.

So you didn't raise preflop there with AK due to,

I did not want to take on additional risk to my stack since i was in the lead.

,then you get it all in bad and lose with it anyway. While raising pre flop probably would have taken the pot down.

Even if for some reason he calls the raise, now there is 1200 in the pot. He is less likely to donk out on this flop sense it likely hits your range. You C bet for 800 now he is only getting 2.5 to 1 to make the call. And making this call means he is going to be investing over a third of his stack in this hand. So you are taking away the ability for him to call. Now if he wants to try and make a move here and three bet to 2k or he shoves, now you are calling while you are ahead instead of calling when the villain already made his hand.