Wanting to get better; don't know where to begin.

[MediaBLITZ]

You need to listen to this guy - you may be a demon at game theory and math but everything you have posted screams poker newbie (1st level thinker). Not an insult - we all started there at sometime. There are an incredible number of nuances and variables (not just math). You simply have not not seen enough hands to experience the reality of the theory. We are talking thousands upon thousands of hands you must experience to start deciphering the game. When your experience catches up your 1st level thinking will become automatic and you will start going deeper - it is only your lack of experience hindering that right now. Hang in there and keep playing - come this spring you will be saying things like - "I never would have played it that way last Thanksgiving", "That was never a consideration a few months ago", etc

That's incorrect, and it's so incorrect I think you should seriously re-evaluate how much you think you understand common equities.

JJ is 53.6% vs. TT,AK, KK. Of course that's not the range I gave you, which was TT-AA, AK, AQs. It makes no sense whatsoever to put TT, KK in someone's range and not JJ, QQ, AA. Against TT-AA, AK, AQs, JJ has 44%.



Assuming that people play rationally is incorrect. Also, what you assume to be rational may not be relevant because you don't know what you're doing. The fact that you want people to fold draws or weak hands regardless of how much you've raised reveals serious fundamental flaws in your thinking.

Do you want people to fold weak hands? If so, then you may want to ask yourself how you intend to make money playing poker. If someone's range is wide, it is very simple to adjust to that. You value bet thinner.



If you get it in good and they call with worse, then that's good. Whether they catch a card on the river or not doesn't matter. RESULTS DO NOT MATTER.



Saying AK is a drawing hand is standard first-level beginner/fish thinking. You just said how often people call with anything, so obviously AK is better than anything, even unimproved. Thinking of hands as "made hands" and "drawing hands" is useless because hands have equities vs. ranges, and AK's equity is better than most "made hands." If you think that 9/10ths of the time the flop will go the other way, then you simply don't understand anything about the math of poker, and it's important for you to understand why.

 

[gwaewar]

I deal with mathematics and equations every day. I read all these articles about calculations of equity and hand ranges, and all I want to do is get a good grip on it so I know how to play better. I don't think I'm good, I've said it before. I just want help as to "what I actually need to do to get better" kind-of thing.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

http://www.pokerlistings.com/strategy/how-to-put-your-opponent-on-a-range
I think it would serve you better at this time in your short career to read Phil Gordon and then Dan Harrington to ingrain some of the basics of startegy and play that your opponents may or may not be using.
Keep in mind a lot of the low stakes players are not strategists - they are gamblers and approach poker not much differently than they do the roulette table - this is good - you want this. You also want them to win and win big periodically as it reinforces their actions in the future. In other words it is nothing to complain about.

My apologies. I thought you meant like these people are playing these hands right now, instead of this is the range and calculate equity. Didn't read it right.

I wasn't talking about wanting people to fold out on straight draws or flush draws when the flop has already come. I'm talking about people that end up WINNING because of PREFLOP action, (i.e. I go all-in with AA and lose to 42o) kind of thing. If I have a made hand already on the flop and someone is chasing a draw, I wouldn't expect them to fold out but I'd give them wonky odds to call. I understand getting monster hands cracked, but I'm asking is how to put people on range because I seem to never have a good idea when they're holding rags or holding monster hands (they all raise/go all in on the same things).

All I hear about thinking "rationally" is play premium hands from good position. I'm telling you, I sat there and read every article I could possibly find on odds to position to whatever. If I'm sticking to my "best game" (playing only premium hands, premium pairs), why is it that people go all-in PREFLOP with nothing? All I'm saying is it makes it hard to play against and I'm wondering how to assign range to that. I haven't gotten anything about "try to assign ranges like this", or "here's what I do".

What is AK if it's not a drawing hand then?

There's obviously no truth in saying that the flop will go 9/10 the other way. But there are times that it seriously feels like that.

I want to improve putting people on range, and improve postflop play. I can tell when someone has the best of it, pretty much tell when someone is bluffing. But so far, I feel no one has actually "helped me out" and just said "I'm wrong because x". I might be totally wrong and the worst player ever. Great. I just want to improve my game.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

http://www.pokerlistings.com/strategy/how-to-put-your-opponent-on-a-range
I think it would serve you better at this time in your short career to read Phil Gordon and then Dan Harrington to ingrain some of the basics of strategy and play that your opponents may or may not be using.
Keep in mind a lot of the low stakes players are not strategists - they are gamblers and approach poker not much differently than they do the roulette table - this is good - you want this. You also want them to win and win big periodically as it reinforces their actions in the future. In other words it is nothing to complain about.

My apologies. I thought you meant like these people are playing these hands right now, instead of this is the range and calculate equity. Didn't read it right.

I wasn't talking about wanting people to fold out on straight draws or flush draws when the flop has already come. I'm talking about people that end up WINNING because of PREFLOP action, (i.e. I go all-in with AA and lose to 42o) kind of thing. If I have a made hand already on the flop and someone is chasing a draw, I wouldn't expect them to fold out but I'd give them wonky odds to call. I understand getting monster hands cracked, but I'm asking is how to put people on range because I seem to never have a good idea when they're holding rags or holding monster hands (they all raise/go all in on the same things).

All I hear about thinking "rationally" is play premium hands from good position. I'm telling you, I sat there and read every article I could possibly find on odds to position to whatever. If I'm sticking to my "best game" (playing only premium hands, premium pairs), why is it that people go all-in PREFLOP with nothing? All I'm saying is it makes it hard to play against and I'm wondering how to assign range to that. I haven't gotten anything about "try to assign ranges like this", or "here's what I do".

What is AK if it's not a drawing hand then?

There's obviously no truth in saying that the flop will go 9/10 the other way. But there are times that it seriously feels like that.

I want to improve putting people on range, and improve postflop play. I can tell when someone has the best of it, pretty much tell when someone is bluffing. But so far, I feel no one has actually "helped me out" and just said "I'm wrong because x". I might be totally wrong and the worst player ever. Great. I just want to improve my game.

 

[NEWTDOG101]

Ok well do this, post some HH (Hand History) of some sessions you play, cash or sng doesn't matter just post in the correct section on the forum. Give detail info on the players involved (reads) and let us analyse your play. I assure you this will help you as you will see we will be able to determine a range fairly quickly. Don't post the results of the hand until the review is complete.GL

 

[baudib1]

I wasn't talking about wanting people to fold out on straight draws or flush draws when the flop has already come. I'm talking about people that end up WINNING because of PREFLOP action, (i.e. I go all-in with AA and lose to 42o) kind of thing. If I have a made hand already on the flop and someone is chasing a draw, I wouldn't expect them to fold out but I'd give them wonky odds to call. I understand getting monster hands cracked, but I'm asking is how to put people on range because I seem to never have a good idea when they're holding rags or holding monster hands (they all raise/go all in on the same things).

Do you think going all-in preflop with 42o is profitable? Do you think getting stacks in with AA is profitable? I'm sure you can answer these questions so there's no need for further discussion on this topic.

If you have AA and get it in pre vs. 42o, THE RESULT OF THE HAND DOES NOT MATTER! If people are going in preflop with any two cards, then get it in pre with hands that have good equity vs. any two cards (i.e., a lot of hands worse than AA).

You should probably stop thinking about hands in terms of "made hands" and "drawing hands" and think about hands in terms of equity. AT spades on QJ9ss flop is a monster hand with incredible equity even vs. a tight range; 99 on a KQJ flop is a marginal hand with terrible equity vs. any continuing range.

 

[dj11]

Hello all, short-time reader, first post.

I've been playing no-limit poker for about 1 1/2 months. .

Patience. You have already begun. If you rush things along too fast, you will be disappointed.

 

[darkassassin89]

Thats what I did. I have hit myself in the head 2 many times for being such a donk early on... What i know now... Trumps everything I did in he past.

 

[TheKAAHK]

Thats what I did. I have hit myself in the head 2 many times for being such a donk early on... What i know now... Trumps everything I did in he past.

Sorry, had to....

 

[Shufflin]

If you keep looking around the forum, you will see that some very advanced and thoughtful players/posters are involved in this discussion, and there are many of us who are reading along and learning as well.

So I thank you all for the lively debate

My dumb psychological tip is this: when you suck out or get lucky (even if it is simply your cards holding up vs a big draw) give it a physical action (I enjoy the double-overhead-fist-pump) -- I have found this helps me remember these fortunate events, and then when I do have some bad luck, I am better able to remember that the variance is indeed just that...

I look forward to reading some of your hand histories threads!!

 

[darkassassin89]

Double fist pump HAHAHA nice!

 

[Poker Orifice]

"what I actually need to do to get better" kind-of thing.

Review HH's.

Read HH discussion posts.

Post HH's & try to keep an open-mind while reading responses (reminding oneself that many of the responses will be complete utter nonsense/rubbish/trash/ridiculous/ & out & out bad... but some will also be good).

Play around with PokerStove. (math has always been one of my stronger pts. but I've spent alot of time dick'n around with PokerStove while reviewing spots).

Find some good players to rail (just don't do it on bodog ). ie. for MTT play, I used to keep a list of good players, keeping all their tables open on my screens & reviewing all hands they played (incl. ones that didn't go to showdown).

Find yourself some 'poker buddies' who you can discuss hands with.

My list here can go on & on & on. Things like hand-reading/putting villain on range of hands will improve over time (with experience)... things will become more intuitive over time.

sidenote: what do you play? Tournaments (MTT, SNG, MTT-SNG) or cash tables (6max, FR)?

 

[Arjonius]

Where to begin putting people on ranges is by no means a simple topic. But here are a couple of things to keep in mind.

One is that different people can have different ranges for the same action in similar circumstances. If you haven't seen someone before, you can only assign them "standard" ranges for all situations, but as you see them for more and more hands, these ranges should be adjusted to fit each person's demonstrated actions / style.

Another is that most micro players are first-level thinkers. They play their cards with little or no consideration to defining your hand through your actions. So, don't give them credit for plays and holdings that require higher-level thinking unless they have demonstrated that you should.

 

[fletchdad]

I just want help as to "what I actually need to do to get better" kind-of thing.

You have already started. Getting better all starts with the "how do I get better" question.


BUT when you get good advice - and IMO there is a lot of it ITT here - and that advice puts your approach in question, dont justify why you do what you do, rather listen to the advice.

You have to see and accept your faults before you can eliminate them.

 

[gwaewar]

what do you play? Tournaments (MTT, SNG, MTT-SNG) or cash tables (6max, FR)?

MTT-SnGs and 6max. I honestly enjoy playing tournaments, and every single FR or MTT I've played in showed a steady increase to ITM. The only problem with that is I ante myself to death and don't know the real "appropriate" time to open my range. Other than that, I never put too much focus into playing cash games.

As for my problems, I know I'm way too results-oriented. I played hockey growing up and I used to play chess in highschool/undergrad. I understand that chess is about decision making, but one can sit there and memorize openings (Kasparov knows about 300k), the results will come. So focusing on something that I need to worry about the best possible decision I can make and not the end result is kind of difficult, but I guess gets easier.

I'm heeding the advice, for sure. I just wanted to really pinpoint the leaks and have some input on how to fix them. I usually scoff at criticism, but this is a time when I actually need it.

 

[darkassassin89]

Dude, you should read some stuff on 2+2 they have an enourmous database of information that can help ANYONE, new, average, vets, ext. Browse there forum as well and you will hear quite a few testimonies.

You will find a great deal here as well, and will get more personal responces because we all are a smaller forum and we tend to know one another.

2+2 is huge and not as personal, however you will get a beating lol

 

[MediaBLITZ]

I would suggest you either play tourneys or cash (not both) at this early stage of figuring things out. Most players start with tourneys. This way you will not be jerked back and forth between two different strategies for what seems like basically the same game. When you feel you are an accomplished player in the one and are looking for a new challenge move on. CAVEAT - you might want to take into consideration which one can make you the most money. Where I live and play that is definitely cash because the tourneys are low buy-ins (less than $100) and severely limit the number of players (40-60). Whith cash I can at least look forward to moving up in stakes and increasing my takedown plus I can play on my schedule, not the casino. But tourneys are a lot of fun and you automatically restrict your losses because there is only one buy-in. I have dropped $600 in a few hours of cash but once I get knocked out of the $85 tourney I am capped on my loss (unless I go to the cash table).
Your chess background will pay big dividends by applying the skillset of thinking several moves ahead. Basically a poker hand only has 4 moves to think through (the complexity of each compounded by several factors including number of people in the hand). Surely you thought more than 4 moves ahead in chess?!? At least 4, I am sure. Use that - everytime, without fail and you are way ahead of your opponents.
Sink it in - you are going to lose hands - say it, "I am going to lose hands." Easy, right? Now for the hard part - you are going to lose hands to complete and utter morons - say it, "I am going to lose hands to complete and utter morons." Not as easy - is it? Fall in love with that concept because it is a wonderful thing - why's that you ask? Because if you are a savvy player the moron will end up giving you more money than you give him - just to pull numbers out of my ass - like around 70-30. That means you have to keep your head when he takes down a pot you were ahead on all the way to the river.
Instead of thinking, "!^#@!*!!@#, I just can't win!", you need to immediately recognize, "Okay, this guy is an idiot. There is no way he should have gone to the river holding that crap. I played it exactly how I should have and the results are just going to reinforce his bad decisions and poor play - which means the best situation for me is to continue to be in hands with this guy."
If you have done your homework and can read a player and recognize what level he is playing at and are capable of playing at least one level above him then there is no reason that, in the long haul, you will take more money off of him than he takes off of you. That does not mean he will not take money off you. It's a fight with ebb and flow and ups and downs.
There is no doubt you have leaks - hell I sure do - but your best solution is to learn to review your hands. As was said earlier post those hands in the forum and let others give you some input. Now that input is going to be contradictory MANY TIMES - but it should reveal some levels of thought unconsidered in your play at the time. Also participate by giving your thoughts and input on other hands posted. You might be mistaken but if that is the case someone will point it out to you and better to find that out here than at the table.
#1 LEAK - thinking you are a better player than you really are.
#2 LEAK - thinking your opponent is a worse player than he really is.

MTT-SnGs and 6max. I honestly enjoy playing tournaments, and every single FR or MTT I've played in showed a steady increase to ITM. The only problem with that is I ante myself to death and don't know the real "appropriate" time to open my range. Other than that, I never put too much focus into playing cash games.

As for my problems, I know I'm way too results-oriented. I played hockey growing up and I used to play chess in highschool/undergrad. I understand that chess is about decision making, but one can sit there and memorize openings (Kasparov knows about 300k), the results will come. So focusing on something that I need to worry about the best possible decision I can make and not the end result is kind of difficult, but I guess gets easier.

I'm heeding the advice, for sure. I just wanted to really pinpoint the leaks and have some input on how to fix them. I usually scoff at criticism, but this is a time when I actually need it.

 

[bgomez89]

It gets me every time I see this thread above deuceswild's "where do I begin" thread

 

[baudib1]

It's probably not helpful to think of players as idiots. It's better to think of yourself as an idiot, because it leads to better questions and is more conducive to improving.

Instead of saying, "WTF why did he do that?" ask yourself, "WTF, why did I do that?"

Not only will dumb players make dumb decisions and beat you, dumb players will make dumb decisions and lose to you as well. Just be thankful that they put their money in, and then question whether or not you made the appropriate play to extract full value from their entire range, rather than just winning (or losing) the pot that one time.

Furthermore, dumb players will sometimes make correct decisions and beat you, and sometimes make correct decisions and lose. Sometimes you'll get it in bad, correctly -- and win. When you get AA vs. KK in pre and win, that whole pot isn't yours, he earned 18% of it.

The point is that bad beats and coolers are not worth talking about, and continuing to mention them in this thread is not going to be helpful to anyone, most of all the OP. Bad beats and coolers have precisely 0 long-term impact on anyone's win rate if you are playing correctly and properly bankrolled.

For every 80-20 you lose that you have no control over, there are probably 100 spots where you miss an obvious value bet because you played too passively, 100 more spots where you slowplayed and could have gotten someone's stack, 100 times where you are clearly beat but just couldn't fold your KK, and probably 1,000 times where you made a marginally incorrect decision that gets compounded on a later street.

Spend your time thinking about those spots, because that's an awful lot of lost money.

 

[gwaewar]

I started actually paying close attention to the people I'm playing against online. Usually I'm doing homework or watching the news or whatever, but I just sat down, played for half the day, and concentrated and asked myself questions constantly.

Saying that, I downloaded HEM2 and PT3 (I have a mac and a desktop), and honestly, it's helped so far. Being able to see stats and all that makes it more enjoyable for me, definitely (I study econometrics, so it's all stats). It's helped me be able to identify someones range pretty quickly, I guess (player X has a VP$IP of 11 and PFR of 3% from in position...). I don't think I thought about hand ranges too much and assumed everyone played all top stuff. But being able to see how much money they put in the pot and how much they raise, fold to steals, etc., allows me to take better notes and lean on them.

All I'm really focused on right now is being able to read opponents, read their stats, and analyze their play at the table. Then go analyze mine. I will go post HH (once I figure out how to import them).

 

[channing73ny]

i believe in attacking the players at the table that play loose seems too me half the time the dumb asses who want too play like fools 9 out of ten times really should have been bloody early o but i just didnt have the balls too call there raises.so try too attack these players early on.

 

[PotluckXXI]

This is really funny, I think everyone was in your position when they first started playing. It is frustrating, I know I took major blows to my ego and wallet. If you are math oriented then look at it from a pure statistical standpoint, forget the money and play purely based on the mathmatics. If you have AA then you are a 17-3 favorite against any two cards, you will loose with AA sometimes but win more, you loose $10 every time you loose ($30) and win $10 every time you win ($170) for a profit of $140. Any pair you make will flop a set 1/3 of time, you will hit the flush on the turn or river 1/5 of the time. Applying the math will make the decisions easy for you and will garner profit over the long term. variance will kill you, but it does change and even out over time. Read about BOW (Biggest Online Winner) in Phil Gordon's Little Green Book. Guy played like a (seeming) manaic, but was crazy like a fox, he also had HUGE swings.

 

[TheKAAHK]

Dude, you should read some stuff on 2+2 they have an enourmous database of information that can help ANYONE, new, average, vets, ext. Browse there forum as well and you will hear quite a few testimonies.

You will find a great deal here as well, and will get more personal responces because we all are a smaller forum and we tend to know one another.

2+2 is huge and not as personal, however you will get a beating lol

How dare you promote a rival forum here!!??!!

 

[bgomez89]

i believe in attacking the players at the table that play loose seems too me half the time the dumb asses who want too play like fools 9 out of ten times really should have been bloody early o but i just didnt have the balls too call there raises.so try too attack these players early on.

wat.

 

[darkassassin89]

How dare you promote a rival forum here!!??!!

Lol well I DID mention that he will get more personal responces here, rather over there they have more DATA and good reads... sorry

I love it here more! 2+2 is more of a band wagon forum anyhow xD