Value Betting (Day 7 Course Discussion)

Polytarp

Polytarp

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Been re-reading the posts in the various course segments and am developing an appreciation of the influence of this course which is helping me to ask better questions (I hope).
As professionals against professionals, what do you look for in an MTT when assessing someone's price point for their bluffs, calls and raises while you're putting them on a card range? Obviously this is being done in reverse but how often have you been surprised by what your opponent held at a showdown on the river vs having extracted the maximum value and having pin pointed their hole cards?


I've led a few opponents down a garden path hand-holding them to the river a great hand and betting (what I believe to be) the right amount to extract value and to keep them in the hand only to lose to a bigger full house, flush etc. when they hit their 1-4%. It takes a while to make up such a loss, if at all. Should I continue playing in this manner or would it be better to shove and probably take the smaller win..in the long run?

As a side note, Alan Turing would try to solve a challenging problem on his own first rather than look at someone's solution to a problem upon hearing about it. Throughout your course segments I've tried to logically solve them rather than apply some wishy-washy thinking or look up "the answer" elsewhere. In all of the questions that have been posed within the course, how many of them have exactly one right answer? Or, what are ALL the only applicable answers that apply relative to the constraints of the question? At present, I can't recognize a properly framed poker question that can be answered in only one way...so I'll keep studying and asking questions.
 
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Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

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I definitely agree with Turing's approach, that's a great problem-solving method.

To answer your questions:

It's a minority of questions that have exactly one right answer. The important thing is usually just that you have good reasoning for the line you want to take. But occasionally there is just one right answer. For example, if you have a 3-high flush draw against an opponent you're confident has at least a pair, and you face an all-in getting bad odds of only 5:4, there's only one right answer (folding).

I'm frequently surprised by what opponents have at showdown. You can have great logic and really think everything through, but ultimately people can play their cards however they want! So you'll do much better at poker by thinking rationally, considering ranges, etc, but some of the time I guarantee you'll be surprised. At least, I definitely am :D
 
Polytarp

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.. but some of the time I guarantee you'll be surprised..
Thanks for the quick response.
I have sometimes given opponents credit for having a better hand after folding mine where they honestly believed they had the best hand (they didn't). There have also been times where an opponent had the weaker hand at showdown where they couldn't wrap their head around why they lost.
I was surprised at myself in the first case and surprised at my opponents thought process in the second...both were learning experiences.
Cheers.
 
Polytarp

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As I'm waiting for the PStars Friday Fun (play money) game I was playing a Summer Series free roll where I successfully set mined 33 into X223 against the chip leader. He was holding 99 and I knew he had a decent pair due to his initial and post flop bet size. The first was to dissuade stronger hands and the second was to suck in weaker hands. There was one flush draw on the board which I hoped he would hit. After a raise then re-raise (all-in) at the turn the river comes up a 9. My garden path hit a brick wall at the 4.5% mark.:eek:
 
Katie Dozier

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As I'm waiting for the PStars Friday Fun (play money) game I was playing a Summer Series free roll where I successfully set mined 33 into X223 against the chip leader. He was holding 99 and I knew he had a decent pair due to his initial and post flop bet size. The first was to dissuade stronger hands and the second was to suck in weaker hands. There was one flush draw on the board which I hoped he would hit. After a raise then re-raise (all-in) at the turn the river comes up a 9. My garden path hit a brick wall at the 4.5% mark.:eek:
Getting it in very good only to get two-outed on the river is always painful :( May you run much better in the next one, Polytarp!
 
Polytarp

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Getting it in very good only to get two-outed on the river is always painful :( May you run much better in the next one, Polytarp!
Thanks Katie. You must have experienced this many times and developed some scar tissue as well. There is no way of being certain of a win even when the last card falls with a full house. The other person could have been holding the other two deuces. I was OK with the outcome because that's the game...I'm sure in some game in the future my 4.5% hand(s) will be winners also...not that I'll be depending them to make it to the top spot.:D
 
king11682

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The value bet is something that we must do frequently, especially when we have the best possible hand and the villain must fold; Sometimes it can be bluffing but this is more difficult to do. If the villain calls then we will be attentive to what is coming out on the table to make our new move.
 
Katie Dozier

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Thanks Katie. You must have experienced this many times and developed some scar tissue as well. There is no way of being certain of a win even when the last card falls with a full house. The other person could have been holding the other two deuces. I was OK with the outcome because that's the game...I'm sure in some game in the future my 4.5% hand(s) will be winners also...not that I'll be depending them to make it to the top spot.:D
That's great to hear that you're coping well with these extremely frustrating (although totally unavoidable) bad beats. :)
 
makisaa

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It is one of the important details in the game, maybe a detail that can make a big difference and give the results!
 
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hanio75

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The best advice in this video is to look at the hand as a whole. Not only to your own cards and the board, not only position, villain range, bet value, ICM or odds. You need to take all these factors in consideration in crucial hands. It's very tricky in fact. And probably what makes the difference between the expert player and the just good ones.

Anyways, I believe the common player can improve her skills a lot watching videos like these.

Awesome job! :congrats::congrats::congrats:
I agree with you, there are several situations to be observed. As the game goes on the scenario changes, either to improve for us or for the villain. In that sense the value bet has to work before it is necessary to either play bluff or fold depending on the villain.:fight::fight:
 
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hanio75

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Hello, I'm really enjoying the explanations in class. This lesson on value bets is of great importance in order to grow the chip stack. Currently I have observed ranges and depending on the situation I try to defend my hand and position by betting, pre flop, flop, turn and river. Before I used to fold a lot on the post flop to bet. Now I realize that many times the range is better and I can win.
 
Collin Moshman

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Hello, I'm really enjoying the explanations in class. This lesson on value bets is of great importance in order to grow the chip stack. Currently I have observed ranges and depending on the situation I try to defend my hand and position by betting, pre flop, flop, turn and river. Before I used to fold a lot on the post flop to bet. Now I realize that many times the range is better and I can win.


Great, we're glad to hear that Hanio. I also used to fold too often to post-flop action and c-bets in particular!
 
bruno13xs

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about the bet amount for me depends a lot on the hand I'm in. like I have AA and I think it is wrong what I do I never bet just raise when someone bets or just leave it to raise on the river
 
gabrielcsgo93

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for me, a value bet have to be short to take call or too big to looks like a bluff!
 
Collin Moshman

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for me, a value bet have to be short to take call or too big to looks like a bluff!



If you can make a value bet look like a bluff, that’s great. Sometimes betting big accomplishes both tasks: You get max value when called, and you get called more often because an opponent thinks you just want him to fold :)
 
Katie Dozier

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Today’s lesson will explain what it means to make a value bet and how important they are to winning at poker.


Yes! Please let us know if you have any questions about it :)
 
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userme4321

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Day 7 Value betting. A foundation of poker. I'm getting better. Making the wrong choices has no value. Equilab, wow when you use it, should I get good at it or play with it?
 
Collin Moshman

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Day 7 Value betting. A foundation of poker. I'm getting better. Making the wrong choices has no value. Equilab, wow when you use it, should I get good at it or play with it?



Yes play around with Equilab and you’ll definitely get much better at assessing equities in-game.
 
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CMack3

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Day 7 Value Betting

Really good!
“A HUGE PART OF WINNING POKER IS SIMPLY MAKING THE BEST HAND AND BETTING IT.”
I see it this way,
Not sexy, not like a trick play where you were able to trap and stack one possibly two or more players (how often does that happen?), but over time will add up HUGE. Yes, occasionally you will be raised, check raised etc. by putting in a value bet (the skills learned from this course will help us deal with those situations - hopefully better than the hero against 99 - wow) but over time clearly a + EV play.
As we learned from chapter two - “Aggression is Power” and this is an aggressive play making us more difficult to play against!
Peace!
 
Katie Dozier

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Really good!
“A HUGE PART OF WINNING POKER IS SIMPLY MAKING THE BEST HAND AND BETTING IT.”
I see it this way,
Not sexy, not like a trick play where you were able to trap and stack one possibly two or more players (how often does that happen?), but over time will add up HUGE. Yes, occasionally you will be raised, check raised etc. by putting in a value bet (the skills learned from this course will help us deal with those situations - hopefully better than the hero against 99 - wow) but over time clearly a + EV play.
As we learned from chapter two - “Aggression is Power” and this is an aggressive play making us more difficult to play against!
Peace!


That’s it exactly! Value betting may not be the most glamorous form of putting chips in and it’ll never be the climax of a Hollywood poker plot lol, but it is a crucial key to making money playing poker!
 
Good Man

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I realized that getting rid of the fear of betting and rearranging your opponents ' bets will help you maximize the value of your hands and win more chips from your opponents. All your actions should be based on the expectation of winning over a long distance, rather than trying to win every single hand.
Sometimes there are times when my hand is a monster and my opponents fold. And it's sometimes frustrating.
Respect to you, everything is very clear and instructive!



Life game, play beautifully
 
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Well, finnaly goingo to week 8 (yeah, I took less than 7 days to came here)]

Very cool concepts for the start of the course, I find them very importante for the base of any player who is starting poker.
 
Katie Dozier

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Well, finnaly goingo to week 8 (yeah, I took less than 7 days to came here)]

Very cool concepts for the start of the course, I find them very importante for the base of any player who is starting poker.


Hooray, thanks! :)
 
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birdman666

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As I'm waiting for the PStars Friday Fun (play money) game I was playing a Summer Series free roll where I successfully set mined 33 into X223 against the chip leader. He was holding 99 and I knew he had a decent pair due to his initial and post flop bet size. The first was to dissuade stronger hands and the second was to suck in weaker hands. There was one flush draw on the board which I hoped he would hit. After a raise then re-raise (all-in) at the turn the river comes up a 9. My garden path hit a brick wall at the 4.5% mark.:eek:

That's a nice story. Let me tell you my most recent one. Theres a flop AJQ. I was late position with JJ against two villains. One of the villains bets (he was short-stacked), the chip leader calls (or checked before, cant remember), I raise, the bettor shoves, the chip leader calls, I call.
Here are the hands:
- Bettor: Q2 (short-stack)
- Chip leader: AX (I dont remember what X was, but not a scary card)
- Me: JJ (medium stack)

So there's the quiz question. How did I end up eliminated and the short-stacker became chip leader?
 
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