Should you ever fold AA preflop?

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nateofdeath

nateofdeath

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I know this is probably the dumbest question ever asked, but i suffered the worst beat of my life (at least in terms of money lost, though it wasn't really my money, i'd won it in a freeroll) the other night with AA. It was at a no limit Table at Titan, .25/.50 blinds. I'd brought $25 to the table and was doing poorly, down to 17 and change when I caught pocket aces, and i thought things might be turning around for me, at least i'd be able to make a big raise and win a few cents, but boy was i wrong. a guy in very early possition went all in for about $35. Though part of me was saying to myself i could always lose with this hand, I had to call, so i did, and one of the blinds called also. on the board was Q, J, 9, 8, X, can't remember the suites or the order, but no flush, no pair. i turned over my aces, the second guy to call turned over his kings, and the guy who made the all in bet turned over his ****ing 10's, winning with the straight. I know some of you would say that if you're not willing to put all your money in the pot with AA, you have no buisness being at the table, but i knew i could have lost. Question 1, is there any reason to fold such a hand, knowing it's not unbeatable, and knowing that you have a lot to lose. 2... why the hell did the guy go all in with the pocket 10's. He had to realize that no one would have called him unless they had him beat. personally i put him on aces too, figuring we'd probably end up splitting the pot. the only hand i would have called with was the aces. i would have folded anything else. anyway, i don't know what advise you'll be able to offer. if nothing else i needed to vent a little.

-n
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
In a ring game, no. In a normal tournament, no. Only time it's ever justifiable is in a few certain special satellite tourney situations where it's blindingly obvious you should be folding any 2 cards preflop.

If you're overly worried about losing when you have on average a 70something% edge, poker isn't for you. Situations where you know you're certain to win a hand are few and far between, and poker is all about exploiting edges you have on your opponent. Folding AA preflop is the exact opposite of exploiting an edge.
 
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chicubs1616

Guest
You ALWAYS hold an edge with AA, it should NEVER be folded preflop in a normal circumstance...you want to take advantage of this edge whenever you can.

If you are an average stack near the bubble in a satellite, folding AA might be necessary, but this is the only case (satellite play).
 
X

xdmanx007

Legend
looks like you are getting some great advice already...........
 
F

Freakakanus

Legend
Sounds to me like a typical bad beat. Never feel bad pushing in with AA preflop, the reason he went all in with 10/10 was in hopes of pushing all low pairs out and maybe getting into a coin flip with A/x. You did the right thing, just a bad result. I saw Aces busted something like 6 times in a single tourney until of course I was beaten by them.
 
R

RIVERHANDS

Enthusiast
YEAH if your at a finale table an say it's at least a 3000$ freeroll an more than two players go in an you got a low stack may be wrong but odds are you move up an more players may go allin behind you well go 4 it hell lol, don't fold ever even a sattelite you may lose but if you fold pocket aces an i have an was a good fold was nl rig game an to many went allin had a feeling odds were againest me an 4 players out drew aces but that was the only time. an could lose that day cause i was playing dumb taking a chance with scared rake money lol don't get in that situation play hard don't play scared there's more games as long as you have chips.
 
nateofdeath

nateofdeath

Legend
i wasn't really expecting any responces as it was such an easy question and i asked it almost rethoricly. the thing about aces is you really can't fold them. i'd have a hard time folding them in a satellite too, and i must admit i don't entirelly understand that logic. they aren't unbeatable, though, and i know i would personally much rather put all my money in the pot with the nuts... but what can you do?

and Dorkus mentioned that 70something% edge. would anyone here say they win with AA 70something% of the time? i'd say for me it's probably over fifty, but all i ever seem to remember is losing with them :)
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
I just randomly pulled 70something% out of my ass. Here are some better numbers.

AA is actually ~85% vs any random hand, ~82% vs a selection of playable hands that I put into PokerStove (all pairs, AK-ATs, AK-AQo, QJs, and JTs).

Add a third player into the mix and AA becomes ~70% vs 2 random hands, and ~68% vs 2 of the playable hands mentioned before.

PokerTracker says I have a winrate of 67% with AA, albeit over a quite small sample size. :)

nateofdeath said:
i'd have a hard time folding them in a satellite too, and i must admit i don't entirelly understand that logic.
You're in a satellite with a comfortable stack. 5 go through, 6 players are left. Shortstack pushes all in for 3BBs or so, then a big stack who has you covered reraises all in. You have AA. You fold, because (a) by calling you're potentially allowing shorty to triple up, (b) there's a chance the big stack will beat you and shorty will win the main pot, thus eliminating you, and (c) the reraise all in from big stack is a big sign of strength in this situation, and probably means KK or close, so odds are that shorty will lose anyway, and even if he wins the pot he'll still be shortstacked.
 
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t1riel

t1riel

Legend
I would probably fold if three or more people went all-in at the final table of a tournament. You're odds are not as good in that situation. Even then, it could really put you in a great position to win the tournament if you call and win. :icon_chee
 
joshyb20

joshyb20

Visionary
Only if you are playing your spouse and are already in the doghouse.
 
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chicubs1616

Guest
I would probably fold if three or more people went all-in at the final table of a tournament. You're odds are not as good in that situation. Even then, it could really put you in a great position to win the tournament if you call and win.
Your right, your odds go WAY down with AA when more players enter the pot. However, rarely have I ever seen even 3 people go all-in at the final table (although it is possible). If your intention is to WIN the tournament, a call must be made. If you want to squeak up a few more pay spots...then fold. I would call here, chances to quadruple up don't come along very often, let alone at a final table where some serious money can be made.
 
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card_shark

Guest
If i'm in the chip lead of an entry chip tournament where 9 or more places pay and i'm in 1st place by a large margin. I would just not play anyhands and win by letting someone else get knocked out.

Although, it is easier said then done to fold AA...
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

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Always call with the Best starting pre-flop hand possible.. Yet I would wonder what person would bet over 50X the BB?? Not saying that it is justifiable. However if everyone folded then he would have only won .50 on a $35.00 raise. That to me just wouldn't make any sense.
 
nateofdeath

nateofdeath

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twizzybop said:
Yet I would wonder what person would bet over 50X the BB?? Not saying that it is justifiable. However if everyone folded then he would have only won .50 on a $35.00 raise. That to me just wouldn't make any sense.
that's what i was really wondering about. as i said, i couldn't imagine anyone calling him with a worse hand then he had. i know i wouldn't have at least. his play made no sense to me and it cost me big. so i guess in this case i'm falling into the catagory of people who say, "what the **** was he thinking?" when i lose :)

and thanks to Dorkus for clarifying the satellite senerio. that does make sense and i never thought of that, so thanks

-n
 
N

nwtfdan

Guest
First, I would call any bet with AA, wether I'm the short stack, leader, or somewhere in between. Best cards pre-flop? I'm in!

Second, you mentioned that with more than one caller, your odds go down. True, but so do theirs! You have to keep that in mind. I'll give you an example:
I was in a tourney a couple weeks ago, down to about 28 people, with pay-outs for top 5. I get KK in the pocket, and I'm BB. Above average chip stack. UTG goes all in, then a fold, all-in, all-in, and a call, then button and SB fold. What to do? I'll tell you what I did and why.
Playing with these guys for over an hour, I got a sense of how they played. I thought about it for a while, looked the guys over (live tourney), and made the comment: "I think you are all on aces, and if I'm right, you're all toast", then I go all in, which covers everybody. The last pre-flop caller gets my message and folds. I turn over KK, and the other guys turn over High and/or suited Aces. Now I haven't looked up the odds, but I felt pretty good, and I take 3 guys out of the tourney and take the chip lead all the way to the end. As it turns out, the last caller (the one that folded), had the last Ace, and believed he was beat.
If you go by the book, look at odds, and follow all the best advice, you would throw those Kings away. But my point is, you have to play the players more than the cards in a no-limit game. Odds are for reference, but your brain and instincts are for making the ultimate decision.

Dan
 
buckster436

buckster436

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I would NEVER EVER and i mean NEVER EVER fold pocket AA`s pre-flop, i dont care what the circumstances are, you ALWAYS have an edge with them, if i got beat, so be it, but my advice is NEVER FOLD POCKET ACES.
buckster436:) :)
 
gordo30

gordo30

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can,t think of any unless you are playing for an entry to a bigger tournie then it might have been better to let someone else knock themselfs out .
 
Crippler450

Crippler450

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I love it when new users post on month-old threads just to get to 15
 
nateofdeath

nateofdeath

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Crippler450 said:
I love it when new users post on month-old threads just to get to 15
lol, was wondering why this one was up again. :pcguru:

-n
 
X

xdmanx007

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Rather amusing read. Although he sure as hell found a situation where you might actually consider dumping them! "What is going on here?" :)
 
S

sailorjere

Guest
Crippler450 said:
I love it when new users post on month-old threads just to get to 15
Sorry man, but as I am a new member, I thought I'd go through all the posts, not just the new ones, to see if theres anything interesting or something I'd like to put my 2cents in on. So with that in mind....

In a cash game, the answer without doubt is never fold pocket aces. If you lose, u lose. But in the long run u will come out ahead. Doesnt matter if all ten people at the table go allin, u should call.
In a sattelite, if it only gives a seat to the top spot, u should also call every time, as u are playing for first place, and this gives u a very good shot at taking it, regardless if you are a short stack or chip leader by 10x the second place guy.
In a sattelite that pays a certain # of people, say for example the top ten or twenty, this is a spot where you have a few things to consider. If your sitting in 6th-20th and 10 people get a seat, u should call. Otherwise u risk going out on the bubble by playing to tight. (i.e. getting blinded off). If your in the top 5, and have many times the BB in your stack, then it depends on how many chips you have to call, and how many chips the last 15 players have left. If you can call and lose and still be in the top ten for chips, I would call everytime. But this is a situation where I might fold AA preflop.
In a multitable tourny, some of the above also applies. Say your at the final table (9 players left) and your in 3rd. 6th-9th have barely more than then 5xBB, and the chip leader goes allin in ahead of you. By calling all your chips away, you are in danger of going out in 9th place, which will be a shitty payday compared to your present chip stack. If you fold, u can expect some low stacks to be knocked out before you and u can make substancially more money. In this situation i would fold, and wait for a situation where I KNOW I have the best hand, or where I can go against a shorter stack that wont knock me out.

Thats my 2cents, lol.

F Paulsson said:
Well, since it's been bumped already...

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/?a_id=14576&m_id=65557

Phil Hellmuth knows when to fold AA!

/FP
Thanks for the link by the way. Thought I'd put it up here so people dont have to open the other window. Well...the meat of the article anyways, lol.

By the way, poker star Annie Duke tells me that she has folded pocket aces before the flop on at least one occasion. Of course, there are situations in which this would be the correct play. For example, in a supersatellite when you have, say, 30 percent of the chips, eight players win seats, there are nine players remaining, and a player with more chips than you moves all in, it would be correct to fold pocket aces.

Why risk getting eliminated when you’re only a 4.5-to-1 or less favorite? Why not simply fold and wait for someone else to go broke? After all, the eight players all get paid the same in a supersatellite. It is a very rare case indeed that it would actually be correct to fold pocket aces before the flop, but it just goes to show you, never say never in poker!
spade.gif
 
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K

Klementus

Rising Star
Before I slow play AA, but after loose few stack I understand - need to push preflop!
 
Keith_MM

Keith_MM

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Before I slow play AA, but after loose few stack I understand - need to push preflop!

why the hell do you need to reply to a 12 year post? do you think OP is waiting for your answer?
crippler450's reply is ironic about people bumping month old threads in order to get to 15 posts .
 
elian

elian

Rising Star
I do not think that AA are to shove

Lets tell you guys a story happends to mee the other days at the final table,on unibet 500 euro bounty 6 max wee left 3 on the table im on the botton AA hits mee the oponent had ofcoure a bigger stak then mine i wanted to take some chimps hopinge him not to fold ,i raize 20k he calls the flop is J A 10 AT THIS MOMENT I WAS SURE THIS HAND IS MINE ,so i bet 100k he goes all in 385k i call so J A 10 8 9 now guess who had a Q 9 so he wosnt going for a flush or so and always go shove them AA
 
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