Egon Towst
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Impossible to answer unless you are more specific.
Depends on:
Are we talking Holdem ?
Limit, Pot, No Limit ?
Full Table or Short Handed ?
STT, MTT or Ring Game ?
If Tourney, what blind level and what is the wider strategic situation ?
Reads on other players ?
Relative size of chip stacks.
etc., etc., I could go on all day.
In any case, it`s a mistake to get too hung up on preflop play. That`s only a small part of the game. Read this thread for example:
https://www.cardschat.com/showthread.php?t=74021
I realise I am not being very helpful. Not trying to be rude. Describe what you want to know more clearly and I`ll try to help.
Or, if you`re very lucky, one of the good players might.
Depends on:
Are we talking Holdem ?
Limit, Pot, No Limit ?
Full Table or Short Handed ?
STT, MTT or Ring Game ?
If Tourney, what blind level and what is the wider strategic situation ?
Reads on other players ?
Relative size of chip stacks.
etc., etc., I could go on all day.
In any case, it`s a mistake to get too hung up on preflop play. That`s only a small part of the game. Read this thread for example:
https://www.cardschat.com/showthread.php?t=74021
I realise I am not being very helpful. Not trying to be rude. Describe what you want to know more clearly and I`ll try to help.
Or, if you`re very lucky, one of the good players might.
groupmoney
Enthusiast
Silver Level
PRE-Flop wow..
Gut feelin works better if your gut works.. because PRE-FLOP is just that..
and in Hold-em you have 2 cards and even thou they may look good, the 5 that come on the table are more important..
Thus Go with your gut.. although the odds are better in some cases.. they are just numbers..
Gut feelin works better if your gut works.. because PRE-FLOP is just that..
and in Hold-em you have 2 cards and even thou they may look good, the 5 that come on the table are more important..
Thus Go with your gut.. although the odds are better in some cases.. they are just numbers..
Jack Daniels
Charcoal Mellowed
Silver Level
Right...ignore starting hand requirements and trying to read other players or put them on a range of hands. Forget about betting strategy and position. No need for long term results, +EV, pot odds or anything of the like. Just wing it...you'll be fine.
</sarcasm>
And I'm guessing your reply will include the "supporting fact" that you are a long term winning player, therefore simply going with your gut must be right.
PopDog60
Rock Star
Silver Level
Right...ignore starting hand requirements and trying to read other players or put them on a range of hands. Forget about betting strategy and position. No need for long term results, +EV, pot odds or anything of the like. Just wing it...you'll be fine.
</sarcasm>
And I'm guessing your reply will include the "supporting fact" that you are a long term winning player, therefore simply going with your gut must be right.
ouch, that was harsh JD
but... they do say the truth hurts
groupmoney
Enthusiast
Silver Level
OK so how many times have you lost with AA , KK , QQ..
too many to count right..
It helps of course but it still boils down to what the cards on the table are..
..... Otherwise why do you think all the newcomers keep winning the big TV tourney's ..????
Did you watch Mr. Gold this year in the wsop.. ??
Lots of " BAD PRE-FLOP " hands.. !!!!!
Most famous hand of all.. the 10-2 off of Doyle Brunson?
Smell the coffee!
too many to count right..
It helps of course but it still boils down to what the cards on the table are..
..... Otherwise why do you think all the newcomers keep winning the big TV tourney's ..????
Did you watch Mr. Gold this year in the wsop.. ??
Lots of " BAD PRE-FLOP " hands.. !!!!!
Most famous hand of all.. the 10-2 off of Doyle Brunson?
Smell the coffee!
Jack Daniels
Charcoal Mellowed
Silver Level
Oh my...I don't know where to begin with this. We've all lost with AA, KK, QQ, etc. But those hands do not lose as much as people think they do. They are long term +EV hands. Nobody remembers all of the wins they've had with those hands, but what they claim are bad beats. In reality, many of the bad beats are actually just poorly played hands that lost and the poster is complaining how his AA lost.
And it doesn't always come down to the cards on the table. Hands can be won before a showdown, whether they are actually strong or not.
As far as new comers winning the MEGA ENTRY events is just because of sheer numbers and the limited luck that is involved in poker. The 2006 ME had 8300+ entries with just a handful of pros in comparison (let's call it 5% were real pros, though I'd guess that the number was smaller than that even). So 5% of 8300 is 415 pros vs 7885 non-pros which, from a straight numbers perspective is 19 to 1 odds. Discount the non-pros advantage a little because many of them simply do not have the skill needed to compete. In fact discount it by 50%. That still makes it 9.5 to 1 against the pros. These mass numbers are why amateurs win the mega events on TV. Flip the numbers. Put 19 pros and 1 amatuer in a two table tourney. The amatuer is not 19 to 1 to win. In reality he would be a huge dog, not unlikely to be 1000 to 1 to win against that field.
And Jamie Gold did get lucky a lot. But even the pros all acknowledge that to win a jumbo sized 8300+ person crapshoot will require both skill and luck. Lest we not forget that a well known pro did make the final table (and wasn't there another cash game pro there as well, I think?). But contrary to popular belief and personal feelings, Jamie does have some poker skills. He may not be the greatest player ever, but he did have a great read on his opponents. And he used table talk (within the tournament rules) to better his position and exploit his opponents. He played fantastic big stack poker (starting on day 4 and never lost the chip lead) and he bullied his opponents appropriately. That type of aggressive play and position doesn't require the greatest of cards. It allows for some speculative play in which getting a lucky flop will pay you off.
You really need to go back to basics if you want to start being a winning player. I'd suggest you read through all of the info available in the Articles Section of the site. But thinking that skill, probability, etc is unneeded and adds no benefit simply means you have no idea what you are talking about. In all honesty, it sounds more like that rantings of someone who thought they knew what they were doing, probably learned to play watching edited TV hands, lost their entire bankroll playing how they shouldn't be, and is now looking to rationalize the losses by blaming luck as being the only factor in poker.
And it doesn't always come down to the cards on the table. Hands can be won before a showdown, whether they are actually strong or not.
As far as new comers winning the MEGA ENTRY events is just because of sheer numbers and the limited luck that is involved in poker. The 2006 ME had 8300+ entries with just a handful of pros in comparison (let's call it 5% were real pros, though I'd guess that the number was smaller than that even). So 5% of 8300 is 415 pros vs 7885 non-pros which, from a straight numbers perspective is 19 to 1 odds. Discount the non-pros advantage a little because many of them simply do not have the skill needed to compete. In fact discount it by 50%. That still makes it 9.5 to 1 against the pros. These mass numbers are why amateurs win the mega events on TV. Flip the numbers. Put 19 pros and 1 amatuer in a two table tourney. The amatuer is not 19 to 1 to win. In reality he would be a huge dog, not unlikely to be 1000 to 1 to win against that field.
And Jamie Gold did get lucky a lot. But even the pros all acknowledge that to win a jumbo sized 8300+ person crapshoot will require both skill and luck. Lest we not forget that a well known pro did make the final table (and wasn't there another cash game pro there as well, I think?). But contrary to popular belief and personal feelings, Jamie does have some poker skills. He may not be the greatest player ever, but he did have a great read on his opponents. And he used table talk (within the tournament rules) to better his position and exploit his opponents. He played fantastic big stack poker (starting on day 4 and never lost the chip lead) and he bullied his opponents appropriately. That type of aggressive play and position doesn't require the greatest of cards. It allows for some speculative play in which getting a lucky flop will pay you off.
You really need to go back to basics if you want to start being a winning player. I'd suggest you read through all of the info available in the Articles Section of the site. But thinking that skill, probability, etc is unneeded and adds no benefit simply means you have no idea what you are talking about. In all honesty, it sounds more like that rantings of someone who thought they knew what they were doing, probably learned to play watching edited TV hands, lost their entire bankroll playing how they shouldn't be, and is now looking to rationalize the losses by blaming luck as being the only factor in poker.
A
alan1983
Visionary
Silver Level
Gold caught some pretty good hands preflop. And he played well. There were a couple of excellent players at final table with him and he won.
Anyway, i think both are overrated by some. Some people think that whatever feels right, they do. I mean sure, some people may develop great flair at the game. But 90% of the time, it translates into ridiculous behavior, specially online. It mostly happens when someone catches middle pair and gets into a trance convincing himself the other guy has nothing (dunno why but i see that happening a lot)
Other just want a clearly defined mathematical chart of how to play, what to play with. There isnt any.
There are times to fold AA preflop even, if in a tournament at a critical time, against certain opponents. And there are times u can win with 72 preflop.
When its a cash table, of course there are hands youd MOSTLY avoid playing and other you would. But these are pretty known, not that hard to figure out. Theres no secret there. Just play and develop practical skills, imo thats the only way to improve.
Anyway, i think both are overrated by some. Some people think that whatever feels right, they do. I mean sure, some people may develop great flair at the game. But 90% of the time, it translates into ridiculous behavior, specially online. It mostly happens when someone catches middle pair and gets into a trance convincing himself the other guy has nothing (dunno why but i see that happening a lot)
Other just want a clearly defined mathematical chart of how to play, what to play with. There isnt any.
There are times to fold AA preflop even, if in a tournament at a critical time, against certain opponents. And there are times u can win with 72 preflop.
When its a cash table, of course there are hands youd MOSTLY avoid playing and other you would. But these are pretty known, not that hard to figure out. Theres no secret there. Just play and develop practical skills, imo thats the only way to improve.
joosebuck
Legend
Silver Level
there are no correct standard answers. the only correct answer is to play the # of hands the table requires you to. loose aggressive tables, tighten down the hatches and stick more to ABC poker. tight tables, loosen up and fire more.
the only real standard is that you need a better hand to call with than to raise with.
the only real standard is that you need a better hand to call with than to raise with.