The more I learn the worse I do?

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CaptainKout

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Learn to fold tptk!!! Thats how you beat micros.

Thats exactly what all the other people at the table can't do and thats why if you can do it, you will be a consistent winner.

When super passive fish c/r its two pair or better and you should be kinda proud of yourself for letting it go even if occasionally you're folding to an AQ or AJ. If they're dumb enough to c/r with tp weak kicker for value then you'll have plenty of chances to get them all in drawing dead later.
 
tenbob

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AK isnt a drawing hand. equity is the key.

Open limping is wrong almost all of the time (not never).

We dont raise pre flop for information, we raise for value or as a bluff. Information is secondary.
 
youregoodmate

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Yeah I say open limping is a never, but realistically it should be a never ever ever until you come across a situation where a guy is going mad and is open shoving and you dont want to fold him out etc etc, but in all the time I've played I have never met this guy.

Can we not just sticky a thread that goes over stuff like this? It gets painful to explain it over and over.
 
Jagsti

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AK isnt a drawing hand. Equity is the key.

Open limping is wrong almost all of the time (not never).

We dont raise pre flop for information, we raise for value or as a bluff. Information is secondary.

Some sanity at last!
 
AugustWest

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Limp small pp's/Axs/sc from LP in multiway pots only.
Other than that, gotta open with a raise.....

This what I've been trying at 4NL/FR lately, is this ok?
 
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Beasty2k

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Its been said already but I just want to reiterate. This is way off and quite the opposite of what you should be doing at 2nl.



I like your example of a tough spot so I'm gonna comment.

Basically, you are correct to cbet here. Checking to "take a free card" wouldn't make sense bc it's pretty unlikely the free card will be a 2 outer if you are behind. You already have a hand here so a cbet is necessary. A bad player may c/r a Q which will let you ditch it. And if you get a call on your cbet I'd just try and check it down and fold to a bet in most cases (vil dep). Say the flop was coordinated (flush draw), assuming the turn and river brick (no flush, no A or K) in most cases I'd be looking to call around 1/2 pot imo. This is assuming you have little to no info on villain. GL!

edit: Not sure why I didn't notice, but you put vil. stats. Personally a player with a vpip >50 is going to get my money if he has the Q here just about anytime there's one over to my pp and no flush/str8 possibilities. Assuming he doesnt 3b for the first time.

Many thanks for the input. Just to be clear, I have never thought about limping AK and probably never will (I will 4b or shove AK nearly all the time).

About this example, I will have lost 3bb + a pot size post flop bet if I check/fold after his flop called (presuming he hit the Q). I am down 8 bb within 2 orbits and it takes me forever to get back up to break-even.

If I play "my game", adjusting to villains, I will win the occasional blinds here and there, but only like 2-3 times until someone calls and the above scenario hits again, I am back down if not even lower. And hypothetically, if the J hits the flop this second time around, Vil will most definitely fold to my cbet.

So all my standard 3x bb raises PF and cbets seems to be a losing strategy. You see my point? And playing very tight, never playing marginal hands, will only cause my villains to fold asap when they see me enter the pot.

I build pots preflop and I fold when flop is not in my favour, and I lose money long term. I do fold TPTK when necessary.

How do I solve this?
 
ovitoo

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The cabernet sauvigon is creepin on me so I will do my best to give you accurate advice and if corrections are needed, they will come. So...

Many thanks for the input. Just to be clear, I have never thought about limping AK and probably never will (I will 4b or shove AK nearly all the time).

About this example, I will have lost 3bb + a pot size post flop bet if I check/fold after his flop called (presuming he hit the Q). I am down 8 bb within 2 orbits and it takes me forever to get back up to break-even. Try to stay away from pot sized bets. You will only be up against strong hands and lose A LOT of value from hands you have dominated. 1/2 to 3/4 pot is your friend :D

If I play "my game", adjusting to villains, I will win the occasional blinds here and there, but only like 2-3 times until someone calls and the above scenario hits again, I am back down if not even lower. And hypothetically, if the J hits the flop this second time around, Vil will most definitely fold to my cbet. Seems a little pessimistic. Just stick to ABC poker at 2nl. Make sure you are betting for value and not to get folds.

So all my standard 3x bb raises PF and cbets seems to be a losing strategy. You see my point? And playing very tight, never playing marginal hands, will only cause my villains to fold asap when they see me enter the pot. Same as above. I kno it seems frustrating to get folds and take 3c-14c but regardless it's money in the bank. Wait til you get to 100k hands and you will see how beneficial those small pots were. And when you are looking for tables you should be very aware of the avg pot/hr. Stick to the juiciest games you can find.

I build pots preflop and I fold when flop is not in my favour, and I lose money long term. I do fold TPTK when necessary. At 2nl, the point is to build the pot preflop when you assume you have the best hand. So bricking the flop might be losing your original raise but it should be significantly out-weighed when you are playing for value with monsters and hands you don't brick. (again, don't bet pot cuz this will limit value)

How do I solve this?

Overall keep it up man. If you remain as susceptible to advice as you've been, then you'll have no problem getting help from a lot of great players here. Which in turn will improve your game tenfold. Thats been my experience here:D
 
JCgrind

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AK doesn't win a small pot or lose a big one.... Unless you suck at poker and can't fold TPTK post flop "because TPTK is da nutz"

This thread is hurting my soul.
 
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Beasty2k

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The cabernet sauvigon is creepin on me so I will do my best to give you accurate advice and if corrections are needed, they will come. So...



Overall keep it up man. If you remain as susceptible to advice as you've been, then you'll have no problem getting help from a lot of great players here. Which in turn will improve your game tenfold. Thats been my experience here:D

Thanks again. About the pot size flop bet, that was a typo. I almost always bet 3/4 pot, as I stated in the first example, only would bet pot size if trying to take down the pot there and then - for instance with an pocket overpair.

But as you say, perhaps I should focus more on betting for value and not for folds - but does this mean I should cut back on cbets? I often do that with an overcard on the board, having raised pf and missed the flop HU.

And about choosing the table, I have read that I should pick a table where avg pots are small instead?
 
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AK doesn't win a small pot or lose a big one.... Unless you suck at poker and can't fold TPTK post flop "because TPTK is da nutz"

This thread is hurting my soul.

Care to elaborate? Sorry if I posted anything wrong, I just wanted input on what in my strategy could improve, and I tried to be as detailed as possible.

I did not initiate the talk about limping AK (which I never do), so if your comment is aimed at that OT discussion then nevermind.
 
ovitoo

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AK doesn't win a small pot or lose a big one.... Unless you suck at poker and can't fold TPTK post flop "because TPTK is da nutz"

This thread is hurting my soul.

Come on JC. You kno all my shit is just regurgitated lmao. That particular quote came from a pro. Who probably assumes that yes, most players are not good enough to fold TPTK. Can't you just +1 something that came from my mouth, jerk :p

:rofl:
 
Arjonius

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And about choosing the table, I have read that I should pick a table where avg pots are small instead?
Different types of tables are better fits for different styles and goals. Over time, you'll get a feel for the types that are more or less suited to you.
 
ovitoo

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AK doesn't win a small pot or lose a big one.... Unless you suck at poker and can't fold TPTK post flop "because TPTK is da nutz"

This thread is hurting my soul.

I've thought about it and I actually LOVE this quote. I think its a great quote for 'poker philosophy'. I don't think its to say; if you check your stats you'll find that AK has been losing big pots. The quote is meant to teach you to fold TPTK. How else could you apply it? The logic is there. I remember my reference now as well. So if you still think I'm wrong you can take it up with wsop Academy. :motz: :p
 
Rldetheflop

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AK isnt a drawing hand. Equity is the key.

Open limping is wrong almost all of the time (not never).

We dont raise pre flop for information, we raise for value or as a bluff. Information is secondary.


Finally someone said this. There are rare occasions where open limping is acceptable but don't make a habit out of it. And I can't think of any examples where AK would be good to limp with.
 
fletchdad

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IF!!!! you limp, have a reason. Kinda like whatever else you do.

Really. Have a reason.


BUT.... have a good reason if you can. Like I played 100nl and bluff shoved the river on a KQ9 8 8 board with 3 6 after betting every street, and my reason was "I am drunk and feel like doing it".


So have a reason, but try to have a legitimate one..........
 
bz54321

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Okay my new reason for open limping is this thread. :) And because i am drunk.

But all jokes aside I do have a new goal to win a tournament while open limping every chance i get.

My reason is because i am a hard headed donk.
 
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C

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Micros can be brutal..people will play almost any two cards and they almost al ways call a 3X preflop raise with any ace and your KK,QQ,JJ is in danger. The play is real bad which is ok if your at a table with 1 or 2 bad players but if your playing a 10 table game and most are loose bad players your in trouble. Find a better game or more up in stakes...as you move up players get better. Micros online are like 1/2 tables in a casino or card rooms...between tips, rake and the bad beats you'll take its not worth it...move up and play solid ABC poker and I bet your results improve...good luck.
 
tenbob

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Micros can be brutal..people will play almost any two cards and they almost al ways call a 3X preflop raise with any ace and your KK,QQ,JJ is in danger. The play is real bad which is ok if your at a table with 1 or 2 bad players but if your playing a 10 table game and most are loose bad players your in trouble. Find a better game or more up in stakes...as you move up players get better. Micros online are like 1/2 tables in a casino or card rooms...between tips, rake and the bad beats you'll take its not worth it...move up and play solid ABC poker and I bet your results improve...good luck.

Wait what ?

You make more money from good players than from bad ones ? Sell your house and go play Ivey on Tilt imo.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I just want to add a little something, my two cents.

First, to re-enforce what the others have said already: don't limp with A-K.


Second: Sometimes, your hole cards are irrelevant. You play the opponent, not your hand. However, this is much more difficult online, as I play live. People are very easy to read live.

Third: to quote my favorite movie "If it's good enough to call, it's good enough to raise.". Many times the aggressor wins the pot postflop. And remember if you are HU there is around 68% chance your opponent missed the flop.

Fourth and final: I can not stress this enough, position is very important. Don't get into big pots OOP if you can avoid it. If at all possible, you want to be the last to act postflop.

That is all.

My humble opinion as always, from the many bad beats I have survived over the years.
 
bz54321

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Okay I got AK and following the advice I did not open limp.
Here is the hand... Did I play it correctly :)
[17/20]
##########################################
Merge Network Game 63675336-172 / Tournament
Table 2 -
Blinds : 0.01/0.02
##########################################
4 players
[SB] bz654321 (0.58)
[BB] benrey (0.58)
[1] AcesDead (1.17)
[But] 7Russiancopa7 (0.16)
bz654321 :Ad :Kd Initial Pot: 0.03

AcesDead folds
7Russiancopa7 says : thumbsup
7Russiancopa7 calls 0.02
bz654321 raises 0.04
benrey raises 0.06
7Russiancopa7 folds
bz654321 raises 0.08
benrey raises 0.1
bz654321 raises 0.12
benrey raises 0.14
AcesDead says : all in
bz654321 raises 0.16
benrey raises 0.18
bz654321 raises 0.2
benrey raises 0.22
bz654321 raises 0.24
benrey raises 0.26
bz654321 raises 0.28
7Russiancopa7 says : roll
benrey raises 0.3
AcesDead says : lol
bz654321 raises 0.32
benrey raises 0.34
bz654321 raises 0.36
benrey raises 0.38
bz654321 raises 0.4
AcesDead says : all in
benrey calls 0.02
### FLOP ### :Js :2h :Qc Pot: 1.2
7Russiancopa7 says : fart
bz654321 bets 0.02
benrey raises 0.04
AcesDead says : clap
bz654321 raises 0.06
benrey raises 0.08
bz654321 raises 0.1
benrey raises 0.12
bz654321 raises 0.14
benrey calls 0.02
### TURN ### :5c Pot: 1.2
bz654321 is All in
benrey is All in
benrey shows :Ks :Kh
bz654321 shows :Ad :Kd
One card left to come out..........
 
B

Beasty2k

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Not sure how this thread turned into a open limp AK or not discussion...
 
dj11

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bz, try think this way;

You made an opening statement with your raise, others made their opening statements. Up to there it was fine. If you had the option to close the action by merely calling the 4,5,?,?,? bet, take that option. See the flop.

In this case you flopped nothing but a gutshot, and fell in live with the dream. You should be able to muck your cards unless you are consciously gambling for fun.
 
bz54321

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Ya I noticed that gut shot but also had over half my money in the pot already so i was going to go all the way with this hand. And it was fun I ended up catching my ace whoop whoop a dollar.
 
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