U
Ubercroz
Visionary
Silver Level
In what way?
I see people say stuff like this a lot "outplaying their opponent." I think mostly people don't know what that means and don't have a plan on how to do it.
How do you outplay your opponents better by limping in? In what manner does it assist?
If you have a great post flop game I imagine you don't limp, because you know that MATH dictates it is worse to limp and no amount of "game" will increase the amount of money in the pot or change equity or adjust your implied odds.
newbie in training
Legend
Silver Level
Limping is profitable for example when I'm set mining and getting in for a mini raise or or a call with pot odds of 8.5 to one since I'm statistically suppose to hut my set 1 in 8.5 times and sometimes I'll limo with way less than 8.5 to one because I know that this particular person will raise every time on the flop and yes your post flop games matters hitting your hand on the flop and getting a fold and hitting your hand on the flop and getting an all in by the turn are two WAY different scenarios
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U
Ubercroz
Visionary
Silver Level
1 in 16 times on the flop, not 1 in 8.5 times.
Getting it in by the flop or turn is easier if you bet rather than limp. If you are set mining you need to maximize your profits. Betting is much more likely to get you paid off OR just win when you bet which is better than limping immediately.
You still haven't told me how limping helps you post flop.
Keith_MM
Legend
Silver Level
you need effective stacks 16 times amount to call preflop to set mine despite hitting your set 1 time in 8 ish as you have to allow for the times that villain doesnt stack off and the times that your set gets beaten when you do hit it.
fletchdad
Jammin................
Loyaler
You beat me to it.
U
Ubercroz
Visionary
Silver Level
Thanks. Yes this.
newbie in training
Legend
Silver Level
Hmm true haha but there are times when it's all low board? And you have say 10s and board is 3 7 9 and I do agree that you don't need to limp and most of the time I mini raise to make them have the thought that they've invested some and limping helps you post flop by allowing you to see more flops and the more experience you have at something the better you are
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fletchdad
Jammin................
Loyaler
I think the topic of limping should be viewed in respect to your own ability to play post flop poker as well as whether or not you have a plausible reason to limp.
1st off, post flop poker is much easier if you have gained some info preflop. And limping will get you virtually no info whatsoever. So limping will often make postflop playing a shot in the dark, which is mostly not a good idea. Still, in certain situations, limping is a very legitimate play.
As I said, it depends on your poker skills, and - IMO very important - the reason you have for limping and what you expect to happen. i.e. how you plan to continue on all possible scenarios.
One example of when I think limping is better than raising. Of course, I am assuming how the players will react to my limp, and if I am wrong, then I need to reevaluate.
I am in EP with a raisable (how do you spell that..lol) hand like KQs or w/e. (raisable hand ranges vary depending on your table). I know that there is an agro player in the SB/BB. I also know the rest of the table will have 2-3 people who almost always limp behind but fold to a raise. I want to play this hand, and I am fairly sure the agro player will raise it for me. So I limp, and depending on how I want to play vs the agro player, I can call his bet (this will be very read dependent, and I will have to know how he plays post, so I can make my plan now) or just now 3 bet him.
Scenario 2: You have 1-2 players with FPS. You have seen them limp behind with AA-QQ, w/e. They love to do this and go crazy post. Limping small PP is a great idea here. OC you have to be reasonable sure no squeezers are in position to fuk u up. I know people will argue this like "Why not raise, and trap him (them) in a bigger pot" etc. But vs these players you are fairly certain to GII post in any case, and you also have the added "limp behind" players who will fold to a raise.
There are other scenarios, however I need to stress the point that a limp as PART OF A PLAN is certainly legitimate. Limping cause you want to see a cheap flop is not a good reason. Limping behind when you have a lot of players in the pot can be very good with marginal but potential hidden monsters.
The things I mentioned are rampant in the micros. I limp vs agro players in the blinds a lot from EP and when they raise the 3 limpers that followed me, I fire and they fold. OC, you can only do this a couple of times b4 they fight back, which is also part of the plan, if you see what I mean.
Main point, have a reason for everything.
1st off, post flop poker is much easier if you have gained some info preflop. And limping will get you virtually no info whatsoever. So limping will often make postflop playing a shot in the dark, which is mostly not a good idea. Still, in certain situations, limping is a very legitimate play.
As I said, it depends on your poker skills, and - IMO very important - the reason you have for limping and what you expect to happen. i.e. how you plan to continue on all possible scenarios.
One example of when I think limping is better than raising. Of course, I am assuming how the players will react to my limp, and if I am wrong, then I need to reevaluate.
I am in EP with a raisable (how do you spell that..lol) hand like KQs or w/e. (raisable hand ranges vary depending on your table). I know that there is an agro player in the SB/BB. I also know the rest of the table will have 2-3 people who almost always limp behind but fold to a raise. I want to play this hand, and I am fairly sure the agro player will raise it for me. So I limp, and depending on how I want to play vs the agro player, I can call his bet (this will be very read dependent, and I will have to know how he plays post, so I can make my plan now) or just now 3 bet him.
Scenario 2: You have 1-2 players with FPS. You have seen them limp behind with AA-QQ, w/e. They love to do this and go crazy post. Limping small PP is a great idea here. OC you have to be reasonable sure no squeezers are in position to fuk u up. I know people will argue this like "Why not raise, and trap him (them) in a bigger pot" etc. But vs these players you are fairly certain to GII post in any case, and you also have the added "limp behind" players who will fold to a raise.
There are other scenarios, however I need to stress the point that a limp as PART OF A PLAN is certainly legitimate. Limping cause you want to see a cheap flop is not a good reason. Limping behind when you have a lot of players in the pot can be very good with marginal but potential hidden monsters.
The things I mentioned are rampant in the micros. I limp vs agro players in the blinds a lot from EP and when they raise the 3 limpers that followed me, I fire and they fold. OC, you can only do this a couple of times b4 they fight back, which is also part of the plan, if you see what I mean.
Main point, have a reason for everything.
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S
sleepymike
Rock Star
Silver Level
Early in a small buy-in or freeroll tourney, when a player has limped before me, do I feel comfortable with limping. This of course is true only if the table is void of the all-in every hand players.
In a ring game, I rarely feel comfortable with limping. Maybe if I have been at the table a bit and feel I have a table image of being somewhat TAG.
Again only if a player has limped ahead of me, at a cash game table and I am CO, BTN, or SB.
In a ring game, I rarely feel comfortable with limping. Maybe if I have been at the table a bit and feel I have a table image of being somewhat TAG.
Again only if a player has limped ahead of me, at a cash game table and I am CO, BTN, or SB.
tbdbitl
Legend
Silver Level
Micro cash, mtt, sng?
Action has purpose. What is the purpose of your action? What is your plan?
Are you first to act? What is your position? How many limpers are in front of you? How much should you raise? If you raise with 3 limpers in front and 5 yet to act, how many will call your raise? What has the dynamics of your table been? who's to the left? who's to the right?
So Limp or Raise?
Generally when I come in, I raise. The amount depends on the number of limpers in front of me and my position. But, no matter what the holdings, I like to keep the amount of the raise the same.
Action has purpose. What is the purpose of your action? What is your plan?
Are you first to act? What is your position? How many limpers are in front of you? How much should you raise? If you raise with 3 limpers in front and 5 yet to act, how many will call your raise? What has the dynamics of your table been? who's to the left? who's to the right?
So Limp or Raise?
Generally when I come in, I raise. The amount depends on the number of limpers in front of me and my position. But, no matter what the holdings, I like to keep the amount of the raise the same.
newbie in training
Legend
Silver Level
newbie in training
Legend
Silver Level
+1^ I like to limp a whole lot on ffp because they go crazy over nothing and bet and call and bet and you almost think they're bots until they tell you how much you suck when your sitting on a big stack relative to the blinds
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