Is it worth learning GTO style poker at microstakes?

[NootNoot]

Simple question. Some people say yes, it gives you a good base to build from, and we can always make adjustments depending on specific opponents or the current playing pool we're up against. We'd have that solid base to rely upon for when we hopefully move up one day.

Others seem to think not, just focus on the type of players you are actually up against at the time. Worry about that kind of thing later and learn/adapt at the time.

I'm sitting here having downloaded GTO+ and Flopzilla, wondering if I should purchase the licenses yet and put some serious study time in or wait.

I mean, I've been watching stuff like this lately, think it's really cool and all that but massively question the validity of it for where I currently am:

 

[pentazepam]

You don't need it at nano- and micro-stakes if you have any poker talent.

BUT. As you said: so long as you don't overcomplicate things and know when to deviate from GTO to "Exploit Mode" it can give you a deeper understanding of why and when to do things.

 

[najisami]

Very interesting and constructive video.
But in your title/question, you spoke of micros.
In the micro stakes, according to my own experience, all that science stops having any meaning. In fact, when you play against players whom you can't put on any range (high VPIPs) and who just hate folding, your GTO knowledge, or actually applying it, only leads to disaster.
It becomes more and more profitable as you move up the stakes though never 100% still. Many other factors have a significant impact on the outcome of any given hand or session. Are you playing live or online? And if it's the latter, are you using a HUD or not? Are you playing against familiar players or unknown ones? Tournament or cash? etc...
There's definitely more to say about this topic, but I don't want to make an article out of a post .

PS : Again, take the above with a grain of salt, it's only my humble opinion. Good luck.

 

[ash190]

It's a real debate, man... Some say build that solid base with GTO+ and Flopzilla, while others swear by learning on the fly against your current opponents. Tough call, but if you're vibing with the study tools, might be worth diving in.

 

[Funtast]

Winning in poker is all about how to exploit your opponent to the maximum. Does he bluff often? Call/raise more. Does he play nitty? Don't call as often. Does he 3bet a lot? Call/4bet him often. Does he open a lot? 3bet often. Does he xy.. do yz.. etc.
That's exploiting opponents tendecies.
Somewhen good and even bad opponents will adapt to your exploits, getting 4bet often for example will result in lighter calls/jams which might be an exploit to an exploit in that case. So overexploiting will make you vulnerable to exploits as well. And that's where GTO kicks in. At higher levels exploiting your opponents gets tougher because everyone is trying to exploit as often as possible to win money without getting "counter exploited" themself. That behaviour is a form of balance where GTO is the highest form of it. You exploit people who try to exploit you by being unexploitable. It can be understood as a defensive concept if you are only playing these less exploitive players having little to no weaknesses that could be exploited by you.
However.. on the micros most players exploit themself by just playing terrible poker. You don't want to be balanced at all against that. You want to maximally exploit that behaviour for example by overfolding to nits, overbetting against callingstations and 4bet jam light against 3bet monkeys. That has nothing to do with GTO but it wins you a lot/the most cash.
That said I think knowing and learning GTO is always a good thing. If you meet balanced players your weapon arsenal is rich. At the micros there are nearly no such players, so just maximally deviate from GTO in the right direction according to your opponents tendencies.

 

[Funtast]

Ps: the terminus GTO is missleading brcause it's far from playing optimal, in fact it's highly conditional. Optimal Poker is always optimal play against the other opponents and their way of playing. GTO itself is only efficient against more or less balanced players. If everybody plays GTO there is no more way for anyone to win. In chess for example GTO is always the way to go because all information is on the table. NL Poker is very different.

 

[silentshowdown]

Interesting. I'm still playing 2NL, 5 NL, and probably I'm gonna learn it after I move up stake.

 

[dreamer13]

The GTO model will be an excellent choice in situations in which we do not know how to play to get maximum profit. To put it another way, thanks to GTO we will be able to make decisions that will be at least normal over the long haul.Optimal game theory aims to create a game model that will be impossible to exploit.

 

[TeUnit]

I think for most players they should try to improve their exploitive play before they worry about unexploitable play.

Its really silly to take a GTO line when you could win more taking an exploitive line.

If you really think the players you play against are playing GTO then you should join them, until then exploit, exploit, exploit.

 

[fundiver199]

You dont need to spend 20 hours per week studying perfect GTO strategy to beat microstakes games. But with that being said its not a bad idea to learn at least some elements and implement them in your strategy. Like for instance knowing, when you are supposed to bet small vs. large, and when you are supposed to C-bet or not C-bet.

The key to beating microstakes games however is a solid fundamental ABC-strategy with emphasis on getting max value from the fish. And in extension of this finding the fish. So game and table selection is key to success. If you mainly play against other regulars, all of you are going to end up being raked to death.

So if you are a tournament player find the games, that are most popular with the weaker players. Like maybe they like bounty hunting, or maybe they mainly play in the weekend or at certain times of day. If you cant find at least a few fish at each table, then chances are, you are not making money long-term in those games.

 

[pentazepam]

If you really think the players you play against are playing GTO then you should join them

If you are in a cash game I suggest you leave and find a better table.

 

[yogo9]

Almost nobody does that at micro's, but it's still a good baseline to have. You also need to learn to play vs fish(vs wide ranges), If your goal is to just stay at the micros forever then there’s no need to learn it because you can crush micros having no idea what GTO even is. But if you wanna build a solid baseline that’ll help when you eventually move up in stakes, learn GTO and learn how to deviate to exploit people.

 

[Kinalha]

The GTO model will be an excellent choice in situations in which we do not know how to play to get maximum profit. To put it another way, thanks to GTO we will be able to make decisions that will be at least normal over the long haul.Optimal game theory aims to create a game model that will be impossible to exploit.

Always fun read things from people who not do what they tell the others to do

 

[eetenor]

Ps: the terminus GTO is missleading brcause it's far from playing optimal, in fact it's highly conditional. Optimal Poker is always optimal play against the other opponents and their way of playing. GTO itself is only efficient against more or less balanced players. If everybody plays GTO there is no more way for anyone to win. In chess for example GTO is always the way to go because all information is on the table. NL Poker is very different.

GTO Equilibrium is often mistaken for the entirety of GTO theory as it is the starting point for GTO play- so it is what most players assume is meant by GTO strategy.

 

[Funtast]

GTO Equilibrium is often mistaken for the entirety of GTO theory as it is the starting point for GTO play- so it is what most players assume is meant by GTO strategy.

🤫

 

[eetenor]

Simple question. Some people say yes, it gives you a good base to build from, and we can always make adjustments depending on specific opponents or the current playing pool we're up against. We'd have that solid base to rely upon for when we hopefully move up one day.

Others seem to think not, just focus on the type of players you are actually up against at the time. Worry about that kind of thing later and learn/adapt at the time.

I'm sitting here having downloaded GTO+ and Flopzilla, wondering if I should purchase the licenses yet and put some serious study time in or wait.

I mean, I've been watching stuff like this lately, think it's really cool and all that but massively question the validity of it for where I currently am:

Not sure why this strategy is not easily applied at any MTT level for this stack size. The basic adjustment we would be making for micros if our V are tight in BB with their 3 bets is to use the EP strategy even when we are in MP or LP- that is how we easily adapt GTO when we are just learning to play optimally
If our V call too often as the video stated we make more with our value bets if they over fold we make more with our bluffs.

Yes we will shove and lose hands but we do not look at each spot in isolation we try to max our ROI especially in MTT's over many MTTs

QJ shoving is part of a total strategy not just lets pick this hand

 

[iwont20]

Definitely not.
At micros one needs to learn solid basic poker, play a lot, develop their focus and discipline (these two are vital and should be the major focus) and build BR to move up higher, not to study GTO.

 

[christovam]

I would like to understand these things well, but the truth is that for those who do not speak English there are few ways to go deeper without much investment. But it's a good conversation.

 

[hjuosh]

"I think the answer is very simple. If you are now on a micro stage, you can't even understand the real meaning and uses of those concepts. So, try not to complicate the game for yourself. Use the GTO from where you are capable of understanding."

 

[Funtast]

Not sure why this strategy is not easily applied at any MTT level for this stack size. The basic adjustment we would be making for micros if our V are tight in BB with their 3 bets is to use the EP strategy even when we are in MP or LP- that is how we easily adapt GTO when we are just learning to play optimally
If our V call too often as the video stated we make more with our value bets if they over fold we make more with our bluffs.

Yes we will shove and lose hands but we do not look at each spot in isolation we try to max our ROI especially in MTT's over many MTTs

QJ shoving is part of a total strategy not just lets pick this hand

It starts with the pf ranges which are not applicable at microstakes.
Easy example: Nit opens utg vs aggrofish opens utg. You hold AJs/AQo/TT on the button. Easy 3bets against an aggressive 40/30 fish but calls against the nit. 4bet ranges of GTO are extremely -EV on the micros if you don't adjust a lot very often.
Against nits and aggrofishes and callingstations you simply don't play GTO because it's not applicable. It's about exploiting them and not about how not to get exploited yourself because villains don't do that often enough by far.

 

[Station_Master]

Of course, as presumably the goal isn't to stay in microstakes indefinitely. Just dont try to copy GTO, understand the principles around why solvers take certain lines and use them as appropriate depending on the villains you are up against

 

[Recreationalplayer]

Definitely. It's good to play baseline GTO and use exploitative poker where necessary.

 

[hutzpaf]

At the beginning, in microstakes games, tight is right.

 

[Mr.$t0k]

I think you need to know GTO anyway, and the sooner you start learning it, the better for you as a poker player

 

[Funtast]

I think you need to know GTO anyway, and the sooner you start learning it, the better for you as a poker player

No you clearly don't. GTO is a last resort.
Your brain still works the same with or without GTO.
I played up to NL500 cash and there were always more than enough players giving a **** about your balancing or their balancing.