How to play versus flush draws?

B

blackyy

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Hello,
I am starting poker again for fun and I have been encountering this situation a lot lately and wondered if I was playing this badly and should be more cautious.

This is a tournament with bounties.

I have a pocket pair. :8h4: :8d4:

I have 115k chips, my opponent has 32k chips. My opponent is loose pre and aggressive postflop usually.

My opponent limps utg+1, another opponent limps on the hijack and I limp on the button and the BB joins.

The flop comes

:9s4: :8c4: :4s4:

It checks to me so I bet 50% of the pot.

My opponent who limped utg+1 raises to 20x my bet basically commiting himself to the pot.


He has 12k left behind.

I have a set against most likely either an overpair or a flush draw. My odds are pretty good at 76% versus 24% so I go allin.

Should I have been just calling and waiting to make sure there is no spades and be sure to have the nuts or was going allin for the remaining 12k an okay play.

No need to say that I got stacked and I am kinda bummed about it but knowing that I had 76% to 24% odds did I play correctly. What would an experienced player be doing?
 
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S

StreetPhd

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Well it's hind sight but I often raise with a middle pair. I have also called many times in that spot. More often than not, I raise preflop...for what it's worth.
Regards,
StreetPhd
 
B

blackyy

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Well it's hind sight but I often raise with a middle pair. I have also called many times in that spot. More often than not, I raise preflop...for what it's worth.
Regards,
StreetPhd


I understand that but my point is more in the

is there ever a card that makes me fold this set?

if I slowplay and not over shove, and the spade comes, do I ever fold?

In this situation I agree that I cover him, he has a bounty and I am way ahead but if I were a shortstack, do I ever fold this on turn or river?
 
Garfield52

Garfield52

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Got to be really careful with the flush draw especially when you are playing against somebody who is loosey goosey. They will probably hook the flush with something as bas a 2 n 3 suited.
 
Phoenix Wright

Phoenix Wright

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Got to be really careful with the flush draw especially when you are playing against somebody who is loosey goosey. They will probably hook the flush with something as bas a 2 n 3 suited.

True, the op should be careful of the Flush sometimes, but I like the bet/all-in route taken. There are so many factors to discuss on something as broad as "how to play against a Flush Draw?" For instance, what is the game format (MTT, Sit n' Go, Heads-up Winner Take All etc.), what is you table image like (TAG, Maniac, Calling Station, TAG but recently caught bluffing twice etc.), how many other [potential] players are active in the hand. All of these and more impact how you should play.

Based on the information given so far, I first want to mention that you should be betting/all-in to apply pressure; you want to charge them to continue. You might induce a fold before another card comes for their Flush and even if it does get there, that doesn't mean they hold a Flush.

Your opponent might reasonably have way more than just an overpair or two spades. They might have a lower pocket pair, they might have Ace-rag (especially if suited like A-2 but not necessarily in spades) and they might hold a lot of junk bluffs too. However, they limped UTG+1, so I'm already considering hands with decent playability but maybe not something they love to get it all-in with. Hands like J-T for instance.

I'd probably have played it similar to how you did with an all-in shove when you did. A set is really high and one must consider how much the board favors your range.

First of all, you are in the BB, so you could have anything - but it is less likely a player in the HJ seat has a 9, 8, or 4. What hand would they have there? A9s? T9s? Granted, they didn't raise, so maybe the high stuff like Aces or Kings are less likely, but it is still highly probable. The fact that you covered them in stack size helps us a lot and hitting a set (8 is a solid mid-pair set too) makes this hand really hard to fold without a tell etc. I'm sure someone more experienced in the math than me could display some range hand combinations, but I'm pretty sure that they have far more bluffs than hands that beat our set here.
 
Phoenix Wright

Phoenix Wright

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I understand that but my point is more in the

is there ever a card that makes me fold this set?

if I slowplay and not over shove, and the spade comes, do I ever fold?

In this situation I agree that I cover him, he has a bounty and I am way ahead but if I were a shortstack, do I ever fold this on turn or river?

Yes, certain cards may come up that makes you want to fold a set. Two more spades after the Flop is an obvious one - perhaps this is one reason not to slowplay this hand, you are ahead now: so apply pressure to get a fold or charge them to see until showdown (when their draw might miss or they simply lose with 2 pair or something).

If slowplayed (I might slowplay in a different spot, but since we cover them, I wouldn't usually slowplay here), then I don't even think I'd fold for one more spade unless I had more information like a tell of some kind. If I had say pocket Aces (one pair) then I might fold to another spade, but a set is going to beat a lot more hands - pairs, 2 pairs and even a lower set xD. It is tough for me to fold a set here - not impossible, but tough. We can't be too nitty; if we fold a set in this spot by default (for fear of the Flush), then I think we might be too exploitable to opponents simply bluffing us often here. If we fold a set of 888, then what hands do we continue with here? Just the nut-flush is far too tight; I'd probably continue with (assuming the board is another spade or no spades) the obvious hands like high made Flushes (at one more spade), set, good 2 pair hands and maybe even an overpair (maybe). We would include more draws too if not bet into like we were, but a set is too good for us to typically fold I think.
 
B

blackyy

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True, the op should be careful of the Flush sometimes, but I like the bet/all-in route taken. There are so many factors to discuss on something as broad as "how to play against a Flush Draw?" For instance, what is the game format (MTT, Sit n' Go, Heads-up Winner Take All etc.), what is you table image like (TAG, Maniac, Calling Station, TAG but recently caught bluffing twice etc.), how many other [potential] players are active in the hand. All of these and more impact how you should play.

Based on the information given so far, I first want to mention that you should be betting/all-in to apply pressure; you want to charge them to continue. You might induce a fold before another card comes for their Flush and even if it does get there, that doesn't mean they hold a Flush.

Your opponent might reasonably have way more than just an overpair or two spades. They might have a lower pocket pair, they might have Ace-rag (especially if suited like A-2 but not necessarily in spades) and they might hold a lot of junk bluffs too. However, they limped UTG+1, so I'm already considering hands with decent playability but maybe not something they love to get it all-in with. Hands like J-T for instance.

I'd probably have played it similar to how you did with an all-in shove when you did. A set is really high and one must consider how much the board favors your range.

First of all, you are in the BB, so you could have anything - but it is less likely a player in the HJ seat has a 9, 8, or 4. What hand would they have there? A9s? T9s? Granted, they didn't raise, so maybe the high stuff like Aces or Kings are less likely, but it is still highly probable. The fact that you covered them in stack size helps us a lot and hitting a set (8 is a solid mid-pair set too) makes this hand really hard to fold without a tell etc. I'm sure someone more experienced in the math than me could display some range hand combinations, but I'm pretty sure that they have far more bluffs than hands that beat our set here.

Yes, certain cards may come up that makes you want to fold a set. Two more spades after the Flop is an obvious one - perhaps this is one reason not to slowplay this hand, you are ahead now: so apply pressure to get a fold or charge them to see until showdown (when their draw might miss or they simply lose with 2 pair or something).

If slowplayed (I might slowplay in a different spot, but since we cover them, I wouldn't usually slowplay here), then I don't even think I'd fold for one more spade unless I had more information like a tell of some kind. If I had say pocket Aces (one pair) then I might fold to another spade, but a set is going to beat a lot more hands - pairs, 2 pairs and even a lower set xD. It is tough for me to fold a set here - not impossible, but tough. We can't be too nitty; if we fold a set in this spot by default (for fear of the Flush), then I think we might be too exploitable to opponents simply bluffing us often here. If we fold a set of 888, then what hands do we continue with here? Just the nut-flush is far too tight; I'd probably continue with (assuming the board is another spade or no spades) the obvious hands like high made Flushes (at one more spade), set, good 2 pair hands and maybe even an overpair (maybe). We would include more draws too if not bet into like we were, but a set is too good for us to typically fold I think.



Okay thank you both for your answers, I just wanted to make sure I have the right mind into it and seeing that you both have same thought process, helps a lot!

Thanks a lot
 
B

bidearm

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gotta be careful playing against these people who more than often are like bingo players you more than likely have the best hand but they often get lucky with bad cards and hit it with 2 low cards
 
oakthyago

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You wanna him to put all the chips on the board. The flush drawn is only one possible combo that he has there is a lot o more possibilities on his range.

You dont wanna let him to bluff you out if the draw is complete and as you told he was already pot committed and some people miss play this situations
 
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Cinhos_2000

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No man, you did the right thing. If you only called you'd basically have commited yourself aswell to the pot. Imagine if he actually had an overpair and you folded to another spade? Imagine if he hit the spade and the river makes you a full house? Situtations like this make you money on the long run so you should always take it, specially if there's a bounty in play. Don't let your opponent draw without charging him.
 
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zerosalex

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you have top set. take his stack little by little, if a flush hits by the river and flush is best hand, then fold. so small-medium bets would be best. if he wants to push all in and hope for a spade, then you should call.
 
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gryphon3005

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You weren't just facing a flush draw. There was also a straight draw and possibly a combo straight/flush draw if he held, say JTs, giving him a huge number of outs. I think your post flop bet was the key. A half pot raise will drive out the busted hands but the draws will call. Your options were to check or bet a big enough amount to get the draws to fold. From your description of your opponent I don't anything less than a shove would work and that would be a poor choice at the stage you were at in the tournament. If it goes check-check and the flush or straight card comes then you check gain and fold to the big raise with little harm done. If he instead makes the same huge post flop bet then it becomes much easier to let it go since you're not chasing your half pot bet.
 
T

TheBackpack

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You have set jam the money in noob lol
 
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Zirkzee

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You definitely have to play your set aggressively. Your opponent could have a flash draw and you have to protect your hand. You want to get all-in with this hand. You're already tied to the pot anyway. So go all-in while you're still ahead. If the card made the flush on the turn, I would still put everything in. You still have a good chance of winning the pot since you can still get the full house on the river.
 
W

woodeng

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This is exactly what I have found . . . I have become much more conservative with flush draws as I find online poker players will stay to the end with a flush draw.
 
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pepomjp

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Against a flush draw

If I get a set against a flush draw I will put pressure with a big bet or even all in. I will make him to pay to get the draw.
 
eberetta1

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yeah. when I try to defend my 3 of a kind, my opponent will find their flush frequently.
 
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Zirkzee

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No, you played absolutely correctly. You have to protect your hand from straight and flush draws. So you could have put the first bet higher than half the pot. A pot-sized bet would have been appropriate here. Since your opponent raised anyway, that wasn't decisive. You cannot fold a set anyway, even if the card comes to a straight or a flush on the turn. Because you invested too much in the pot to fold. In addition, you still have a good chance of winning with the full house. It was definitely right to go all in right after the flop. Because you should always bet everything as long as you still have the best hand.
 
A

ataraxyan

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If odds is in your favor just all-in or take aggressive bet.
 
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