How I Will Master Poker

[ifoldquads]

Hey all,

Just a quick update. I just received the last book I ordered, so I'll be able to start the beginning phases of my study plan. Over the next couple of weeks, I'm going to read through the four books and get a better sense of how to organize the material for study. I'll draft a few outlines as "syllabus" of sorts, and then submit that for review before beginning the study program.

Also, when I submit new material, I'll probably edit the original post to include any new information so no major content get's lost in future page counts, and I'll then refer readers to the sub-section of the OP which contains the new content. I will also format the OP so that previous versions of the OP will continue to be available, both for the comprehension of the thread as it progresses, and as way to track the development in my thinking, etc.

Good luck at the tables!

 

[GWU73]

Buy a Poker simulator program, watch some videos and read a few books. Play with your friends (maybe like a $5 buy in tournament or something). Maybe take an inexpensive course online. Learn to make the right decisions before you play for very much money. Read the great posts here.

 

[paymefoolsfool]

read some books and remember when they are checking you should be betting and it is not a good stragegy to fold after you raise to a reraise spelling sucks

 

[dj11]

I read the first post...alll of it, which if I may say so was presented very nicely.

Good plan.

I am not with the anti-play money games folks. Play money is best used to work out the mechanics of particular situations. It becomes a good learning tool at the highest level of play money buy-ins. Since there is nothing to lose, which I understood early on, the cheap play money games are pretty much just available for fun. But at those highest levels, folks have learned a lot and are playing for stakes....not money stakes, but pride of accomplishment stakes. The game at those levels is sport, not business.

So while you are working your way up the ladder, which my guess you will do sooner than many, don't be shy about using play money tables for what they are good for.

Oh yeah, I have been getting ragged on, over and over, over the years about my stance on play money games..... I have found it funny.

 

[tcummo]

I read the first post...alll of it, which if I may say so was presented very nicely.

Good plan.

I am not with the anti-play money games folks. Play money is best used to work out the mechanics of particular situations. It becomes a good learning tool at the highest level of play money buy-ins. Since there is nothing to lose, which I understood early on, the cheap play money games are pretty much just available for fun. But at those highest levels, folks have learned a lot and are playing for stakes....not money stakes, but pride of accomplishment stakes. The game at those levels is sport, not business.

So while you are working your way up the ladder, which my guess you will do sooner than many, don't be shy about using play money tables for what they are good for.

Oh yeah, I have been getting ragged on, over and over, over the years about my stance on play money games..... I have found it funny.

I agree, you can learn from play money games and freerolls.
The late stages of large field freerolls are usually pretty good.
Once you are comfortable with your play, move to micro stakes and adjust.
If you win consistently, then move up in stakes.
Practice good BRM.
In other words 'work' your way up.
Anyway, good luck.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I think your approach is flawed.

Here's why just for starters >>>

If you were just starting out trying to become a professional singer, grabbed some books & figured you would do a detailed theoretical approach to it, maybe 2 days into it you realize "WTF am I doing? Why did I think I even had a clue how to approach this when I hadn't even had a few Christmas Carol sing-a-longs under my belt?"

Get your feet wet > put a few bucks on a site, start playing at the lowest of limits. Best bet is to stick with ONE format of one game type.
Play for awhile... play some more.
Pick up a book (ask for suggestions, don't just pick up what you randomly figure sounds good > ie. Chen's book, Mathematics of Poker.. cuz ur a math whiz).
Read some of the book > play some more. Ask some questions. Post some HandHistories. Play some more, Read some more.
Rinse & Repeat.
Find some decent strategy articles & another book. Read... play.. read.
watch training vids.
Rail good players (if you can find one who'll discuss their thought process with you > Huge bonus!).
Play some more. Post HH's. Read some more.
Play some more.. & more.
Do all the above again. Then play some more!

Then consider joining a Poker Training Site.
Play more & continue to do what's working (ie. post HH's, read other HH's, etc. etc.) & of course > read more > Play more!

Then consider hiring a coach (even if just for a single session or a HH review).

Rinse Repeat.
Get the idea?

PS - playing PlayMoney is a HUGE waste of time & will not be shy to say that anyone who suggests otherwise is a huge fish & I'd say the only valuable thing you could learn from them is to do the opposite (ie. don't waste your time on PlayChip games).

 

[mrmonkey]

I just saw this thread and will chime in AGAINST the flow of those saying play chips are a complete waste of time. You will learn faster using real money, but there are things to be gained by starting with play chips in my experience.

I started my serious online poker play with play chips, and used them to gain hand/situational experience, learn BRM skills and about the swings of poker, and practice situations and spots that I had read about in books and in online poker strat. The lowest levels of play chips are all ridiculously spewy and unrealistic. But if you can build your play chip bankroll using sound BRM and ascend the ladder, you will learn some invaluable lessons in BRM, tilt control, and then when you reach the upper limits of the play chip ladder you will actually run into play chip "regs" and some semi-decent players which will probably be the equivalent of juicy micro-limit tables. In the middle and top levels of play chips, you can start to learn things about hand reading and 2nd-level thinking against certain villains.

BTW, when you do hit real money tables, you will be wanting to table select to find tables that have these juicy players on them. Sure, you can find a lot more real money tables that are lined with TAGs and nits in much greater proportion than even the highest playchip levels, but why bother when you can find one that will play JUST LIKE a high-level playchip table or worse?

So, to go against the flow, I believe that things CAN be learned through play chip play if you approach it with the right mindset and targeting specific things to work on. I started with playchips/freerolls for a good 6 months or so, then when I learned a thing or two about managing a virtual bankroll and after cashing in several freerolls I used the knowledge I acquired to parlay that $0 into about $1500 over the next 6 months.

 

[duggs]

put up some money, poker is not a game for the risk averse. you also can do database analysis if you dont have a database.

 

[dj11]

mrmonkey echos my sentiment exactly.

I have also always thought that the folks who want noobs to deposit and learn 'under fire' are mostly looking for these fresh lambs to fleece.

Perhaps it is my cheap attitude toward all things in life, but it has worked for me. And if I didn't say it earlier, I still visit the play money tables on occasion to work thru things, or expend the run bad I perceive I am on.....

If you are in the US it will be very hard to use table selection. Very much harder in these post BF days than it was in our heyday.

 

[hackmeplz]

lhe has much higher variance than nlhe when normalized for winrates.

 

[Arjonius]

I did play chips for a short amount of time, maybe 2-4 weeks. In retrospect, both immediately thereafter and now, I got some value out of the first few hours because I got used to the mechanics and the pace. But after that... basically nothing.

My next significant learning step didn't involve using money I had deposited. That and playchips aren't the only two possibilities, at least not for MTTs. I played freerolls plus small buyins using my freeroll winnings.

As for learning BRM at the playchip level, I suppose that has worked for some people, but BRM wasn't something I really had to learn and definitely didn't have to practice, either with play chips or with money. As soon as I saw why I should have at least X buyins to play at a given level, it was very easy to set guidelines for myself that I have never failed to follow.

 

[dj11]

As you can see, there are 2 main camps, play money games are ok, or they are a waste of effort, and time. This discussion has been going on for the 6 years I have been here, and will go on forever.

Thing is if you are uncomfortable playing for play money, why would you think you would feel comfortable playing real money.

Find your comfort level.....

 

[hackmeplz]

And all the people who are good at playing poker for real money are the ones who think play money is useless, while the losing players/freeroll/super micro players are the ones who think play money has a use. It's like saying there's still a debate on whether evolution or creationism is the best thing to teach in public schools. On the one hand you have the morons and the other every single intelligent person. The "debate" will probably still be around in another 100 years, and the ones with any brains will still be on the same side against the idiots, just as in the play money "debate".

That said, if you're working on the rules of the game/what beats what by all means do play money first. But if you understand the rules and want to practice strategy against the kinds of players you'll play at even the lowest stakes cash games, play money is quite simply worthless. Even 1c/2c has people who play very serious/tight whereas almost every play money player just wants to shove a lot.

 

[duggs]

And all the people who are good at playing poker for real money are the ones who think play money is useless, while the losing players/freeroll/super micro players are the ones who think play money has a use. It's like saying there's still a debate on whether evolution or creationism is the best thing to teach in public schools. On the one hand you have the morons and the other every single intelligent person. The "debate" will probably still be around in another 100 years, and the ones with any brains will still be on the same side against the idiots, just as in the play money "debate".

That said, if you're working on the rules of the game/what beats what by all means do play money first. But if you understand the rules and want to practice strategy against the kinds of players you'll play at even the lowest stakes cash games, play money is quite simply worthless. Even 1c/2c has people who play very serious/tight whereas almost every play money player just wants to shove a lot.

boom
in before creation theory debate

 

[AlfieAA]

I think your approach is flawed.

Here's why just for starters >>>

If you were just starting out trying to become a professional singer, grabbed some books & figured you would do a detailed theoretical approach to it, maybe 2 days into it you realize "WTF am I doing? Why did I think I even had a clue how to approach this when I hadn't even had a few Christmas Carol sing-a-longs under my belt?"

Get your feet wet > put a few bucks on a site, start playing at the lowest of limits. Best bet is to stick with ONE format of one game type.
Play for awhile... play some more.
Pick up a book (ask for suggestions, don't just pick up what you randomly figure sounds good > ie. Chen's book, Mathematics of Poker.. cuz ur a math whiz).
Read some of the book > play some more. Ask some questions. Post some HandHistories. Play some more, Read some more.
Rinse & Repeat.
Find some decent strategy articles & another book. Read... play.. read.
watch training vids.
Rail good players (if you can find one who'll discuss their thought process with you > Huge bonus!).
Play some more. Post HH's. Read some more.
Play some more.. & more.
Do all the above again. Then play some more!

Then consider joining a Poker Training Site.
Play more & continue to do what's working (ie. post HH's, read other HH's, etc. etc.) & of course > read more > Play more!

Then consider hiring a coach (even if just for a single session or a HH review).

Rinse Repeat.
Get the idea?

PS - playing PlayMoney is a HUGE waste of time & will not be shy to say that anyone who suggests otherwise is a huge fish & I'd say the only valuable thing you could learn from them is to do the opposite (ie. don't waste your time on PlayChip games).

+1

 

[Poker Orifice]

I have also always thought that the folks who want noobs to deposit and learn 'under fire' are mostly looking for these fresh lambs to fleece.
I highly doubt this ^
Can't say I make a point of giving wrong advice to help boost the poker economy ... but you may be onto something there dj
And if I didn't say it earlier, I still visit the play money tables on occasion to .... expend the run bad I perceive I am on.....

No actually you didn't say it earlier. Just to clarify.... so if you've 'been' running bad, you will go play on playchip tables with the thinking that the 'been running bad' is now going to be something we can project into the present & future? And you're going to sit on those playchip tables to let it run it's course? (aka 'put your run bad behind you').
Is this ^ what you're saying?
If so, then I do believe you sir are the one of the ones who's goal appears to be to boost the poker economy by getting new players to deposit. (this has got to be a level... right?)

Only reason to consider playing playchip tables would be to familiarize yourself with the software &/or setting up your features/options, etc. (this is if you have any clue about the game).

 

[fletchdad]

I guess there is a matter of preference, as well as stakes and goals.

I did play play money at first. As stated, a great way to learn all the basics. You get used to seeing how position changes, how certain hands hit flops, how often draws come in - this of course only if you play loads of volume and so on.

If someone has LOADS of time and is not worried about improving in real money games, I suppose you could build up play chips and play higher play stakes. Now, I got to about 100K play chips. But that is not the high stakes. So I did learn about odds and outs and got it in good vs the spewtards (lol, spewtards at playmoney....). I still profit from that lesson, but otherwise, I learned very little about how to deal with agro 3 bettors, handling check/raises, estimating ranges etc. Of course, you can do all this at play money, but IMO the differences to even 5nl are so great that I dont think it will get you on your way to beating cash games as efficiently as just playing cash games.

You will probably lose money, and that is some peoples reasoning, cause you cant lose money at play money. But if you are diligent in learning, and are active in the forum and discuss MANY situations as well as document your progress and continue to learn and adjust, there is not a lot of financial risk. I am assuming you can invest a couple hundred dollars into your initial learning phase.

Grinding 2nl, starting with one or at least no more than 2 tables and using good BRM and trying to advance that way is better than grinding up to high money play stakes IMO.


You can lose money, but that can help you find out WHY you did. Which can be positive in the long run.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I guess there is a matter of preference, as well as stakes and goals.

I did play play money at first. As stated, a great way to learn all the basics. You get used to seeing how position changes, how certain hands hit flops, how often draws come in - this of course only if you play loads of volume and so on.

If someone has LOADS of time and is not worried about improving in real money games, I suppose you could build up play chips and play higher play stakes. Now, I got to about 100K play chips. But that is not the high stakes. So I did learn about odds and outs and got it in good vs the spewtards (lol, spewtards at playmoney....). I still profit from that lesson, but otherwise, I learned very little about how to deal with agro 3 bettors, handling check/raises, estimating ranges etc. Of course, you can do all this at play money, but IMO the differences to even 5nl are so great that I dont think it will get you on your way to beating cash games as efficiently as just playing cash games.

You will probably lose money, and that is some peoples reasoning, cause you cant lose money at play money. But if you are diligent in learning, and are active in the forum and discuss MANY situations as well as document your progress and continue to learn and adjust, there is not a lot of financial risk. I am assuming you can invest a couple hundred dollars into your initial learning phase.

Grinding 2nl, starting with one or at least no more than 2 tables and using good BRM and trying to advance that way is better than grinding up to high money play stakes IMO.


You can lose money, but that can help you find out WHY you did. Which can be positive in the long run.

I think perhaps that something that dakota was alluding to in this thread though is > it can become more harm than good. One will likely need to 'unlearn' alot of bad habits from playing in alot of unrealisitc situations, vs. alot of ridiculous play. (ie. 7 players seeing a flop, all flatting a 4bet for 1/4 to 1/2 eff. stack sizes).
Seriously it's a bit of a joke.... no? I feel they'd be a million times better off playing in a freeroll. Even 'Hubbles' is got to be 100 to 1 >> playchip. (& I think you only win a seat to another freeroll in it... playing in field of 10,000 or so players)

 

[hackmeplz]

I did play play money at first. As stated, a great way to learn all the basics. You get used to seeing how position changes, how certain hands hit flops, how often draws come in - this of course only if you play loads of volume and so on.

Trying to learn how often draws hit, how certain hands hit flops, etc. by playing, either play money or real money, is a pretty bad idea. Humans are notoriously bad at being able to estimate that kind of thing by experience, whereas we can mathematically figure out the exact probability. Especially since hitting flops/draws/whatever are all tied to winning/losing hands a lot of the times when running bad we may fold way too often and when running hot we may think it's 50/50 to hit a gutshot.

But using it to figure out what draws there are, think about what other possible hands other people could have (What's the nuts on this board? Is there a flush out there? Straight? How many open-ended draws? How many gutshots? etc.) as well as just getting used to the software are great reasons to use play money.

 

[Arjonius]

And all the people who are good at playing poker for real money are the ones who think play money is useless, while the losing players/freeroll/super micro players are the ones who think play money has a use. It's like saying there's still a debate on whether evolution or creationism is the best thing to teach in public schools. On the one hand you have the morons and the other every single intelligent person. The "debate" will probably still be around in another 100 years, and the ones with any brains will still be on the same side against the idiots, just as in the play money "debate".

That said, if you're working on the rules of the game/what beats what by all means do play money first. But if you understand the rules and want to practice strategy against the kinds of players you'll play at even the lowest stakes cash games, play money is quite simply worthless. Even 1c/2c has people who play very serious/tight whereas almost every play money player just wants to shove a lot.

It's a matter of opinion. You don't agree with the pro-play chip people. Fine - I basically don't either. But resorting to insulting them? Get real. You obviously place yourself in the "intelligent" camp. Maybe you should aim to be in the "treats others with respect" one too.

 

[dan abnormal]

Master poker quick answer NEVER

Everytime you start apply new stuff youve learned, chances are it will directly be in the way of the way you play and start having to adjust that. Youre game will get better and your game will get great if you can figure the zillion things you must remember and always be alert too.

 

[fletchdad]

Trying to learn how often draws hit, how certain hands hit flops, etc. by playing, either play money or real money, is a pretty bad idea. Humans are notoriously bad at being able to estimate that kind of thing by experience, whereas we can mathematically figure out the exact probability. Especially since hitting flops/draws/whatever are all tied to winning/losing hands a lot of the times when running bad we may fold way too often and when running hot we may think it's 50/50 to hit a gutshot.

But using it to figure out what draws there are, think about what other possible hands other people could have (What's the nuts on this board? Is there a flush out there? Straight? How many open-ended draws? How many gutshots? etc.) as well as just getting used to the software are great reasons to use play money.

Uhhhhh

missed the point.....

 

[hackmeplz]

It's a matter of opinion. You don't agree with the pro-play chip people. Fine - I basically don't either. But resorting to insulting them? Get real. You obviously place yourself in the "intelligent" camp. Maybe you should aim to be in the "treats others with respect" one too.

I'm curious, how many other people who think play money has value even win at cash games? Doubt there's one.

 

[dj11]

I'm curious, how many other people who think play money has value even win at cash games? Doubt there's one.

Break even a ring, I think I do alright at tourneys and I might be the loudest pro play money member at cc.

I played play money for a long time, till I won many freerolls, and essentially my hobby has cost me near nothing.....

 

[hackmeplz]

I mean if your goal is to enjoy playing and you enjoy playing play money, more power to you. The point myself and others are trying to make here is more if your goal is getting better/moving up at poker that it will probably not be the best way to improve. But congrats on finding something you enjoy doing and given that most people lose it's a lot cheaper for you than other people