Game Selection (Day 15 Course Discussion)

Debi

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Game Selection will be a huge factor in determining if you are a winning player or not.

If you have not yet read Day 15 and watched the video for Day 15 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it:

Game Selection

This course not only reviews game selection - but many of the other concepts you have learned so far. Congratulations on making it half way through the course!

How did you do on the mid-term exam? Do you have any questions today for Collin or Katie?

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Polytarp

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Today's video session was a long one so I had to watch/listen to it in sections. I'm one of your students who needs to study more but I have had some better games today because I applied some of the points presented in the course. Saturday's can be a busy day for poker if I can make the time (ie. I had to leave the CC Canadian game at the final table due to obligations.) but I was able to play at all four sites I'm registered to where I made smaller bets than usual and I checked the river at showdown with a good hand where I won about 75% of the showdown's. I also folded more good hands and raised with a wider card range in all the games. Included are some screenshots:
-the first is a hand I would normally have played which is where I felt junk was gold but folded instead
-the second/third is a hand I folded because I could not afford to lose if I was wrong and the result of that choice
-the fourth is a trappy hand that I played within the first hour trying to build up a stack to carry me through the late registration - tripled up(I won a satellite ticket to this game where the late registration lasts 30 levels..$20k was the first prize and about 900 players were in the game when I busted out)
Now, I busted out because I lost about 10k of chips (and got sucked into a swirling vortex of doom) when I was bluffed at showdown when I had the best hand(the fellow showed his bluff). He put in about 1/3 of his chips for this bluff. As a case study, I've made player notes on him, I'll be reviewing his play in PT4 and I'll see if his profile is in Shark Scope.
As you can see, I make player notes and run PT4 (in transparent mode) as necessary.
 

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NWPatriot

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Thanks Katie and Collin. Good content so far.

This lesson (game selection) seems a little tough to apply when we are playing SNG's or tournaments. We cannot generally "select" who is at our table. We can pick stakes, but that is about it. I am not trying to win a million at low and micro stake games, so for me it is training for the larger stakes. My goal is to keep moving up in stakes, which means game selection is a bit of a mute point. Would you agree?

Regarding much of the content in the mid-term quiz, it seemed that a large percentage of the examples had us as the large stack. I feel that this is a little un-realistic, as while i try as I might, I am not generally the large stack at the table. So, it is a lot different playing for our tournament life than when we are playing for a mere bump in the road if we lose. I believe that when we are playing cash, it matters not. The long run is the long run and as long as we are +EV, we can rationalize our play. However, in a tournament we MUST make some adjustments and we are not looking for marginal plays to put our tournament life on the line. Do you agree with this?
 
Katie Dozier

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Today's video session was a long one so I had to watch/listen to it in sections. I'm one of your students who needs to study more but I have had some better games today because I applied some of the points presented in the course. Saturday's can be a busy day for poker if I can make the time (ie. I had to leave the CC Canadian game at the final table due to obligations.) but I was able to play at all four sites I'm registered to where I made smaller bets than usual and I checked the river at showdown with a good hand where I won about 75% of the showdown's. I also folded more good hands and raised with a wider card range in all the games. Included are some screenshots:
-the first is a hand I would normally have played which is where I felt junk was gold but folded instead
-the second/third is a hand I folded because I could not afford to lose if I was wrong and the result of that choice
-the fourth is a trappy hand that I played within the first hour trying to build up a stack to carry me through the late registration - tripled up(I won a satellite ticket to this game where the late registration lasts 30 levels..$20k was the first prize and about 900 players were in the game when I busted out)
Now, I busted out because I lost about 10k of chips (and got sucked into a swirling vortex of doom) when I was bluffed at showdown when I had the best hand(the fellow showed his bluff). He put in about 1/3 of his chips for this bluff. As a case study, I've made player notes on him, I'll be reviewing his play in PT4 and I'll see if his profile is in Shark Scope.
As you can see, I make player notes and run PT4 (in transparent mode) as necessary.


This is an awesome awesome job, Polytarp! Nice work with making player notes on your opponent! Well done and thanks for the update! :)
 
Katie Dozier

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Thanks Katie and Collin. Good content so far.

This lesson (game selection) seems a little tough to apply when we are playing SNG's or tournaments. We cannot generally "select" who is at our table. We can pick stakes, but that is about it. I am not trying to win a million at low and micro stake games, so for me it is training for the larger stakes. My goal is to keep moving up in stakes, which means game selection is a bit of a mute point. Would you agree?

Regarding much of the content in the mid-term quiz, it seemed that a large percentage of the examples had us as the large stack. I feel that this is a little un-realistic, as while i try as I might, I am not generally the large stack at the table. So, it is a lot different playing for our tournament life than when we are playing for a mere bump in the road if we lose. I believe that when we are playing cash, it matters not. The long run is the long run and as long as we are +EV, we can rationalize our play. However, in a tournament we MUST make some adjustments and we are not looking for marginal plays to put our tournament life on the line. Do you agree with this?


Thanks NWPatriot!

I believe that table selection is important all the time :) to whatever extent that’s feasible. Sometimes that means opting out of an MTT that is in your buyin range (by scrolling through registered player list) and realizing that it’s a dense field based on your own ability to recognize good regs. This isn’t likely to come up often but I’m personally recalling one $55 mtt on stars that I stopped playing for this very reason, so it is def something to be aware of particularly on sites with smaller player pools.

Table selection for SNGs is much easier, and yes I believe it is important even at the low stakes. There are very good players that grind low stakes SNGs. They usually play on more regular schedules than casual players and this info is valuable. If you can’t avoid them entirely, playing at a time when there is a lot of traffic will dilute the player pool and result in softer games. At any stakes, the players you’re playing against are very important :)

As for question #2, I believe that it should not be different if we’re playing for our tournament life very early in an MTT when ICM is not a concern yet. As you correctly brought up cash play, I think that early on an MTT is generally very similar to cash strategy. That’s why we talk in terms of chip EV instead of incorporating ICM in the early stages of a tournament. We are not looking at stack preservation at that stage as we might be correct to once ICM rears it’s ugly head so to speak haha :)
 
cferdi

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Wow, long section, head buzzing:eek:

I also went through the video twice because I thought I'd missed a Quiz Question. At the start is said 10, and I only had 9. However, I think what happened was that 8&9 were together, but I had them down as the same one (#8) because some of the previous ones had had more than one part. Or did I miss #9 twice?

Anyway, I was so shocked to get 8.5 / 10 (only got 1 part of # 4 right because I forgot the >20:1 rule! doh!:cool:).

My biggest surprise was Q8 (or is it 8&9?) because this is the one I thought I would totally mess up thinking I totally didn't 'get it'. But I must understand more than I realise because I got them BOTH right (1.7:1 and 35%) - That blew my mind away!!!!!!!:confused: How the heck did I manage that! I wondered.:joyman:

Guess it's all seeping in even if I don't think it is - so a HUGE thank you!
 
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Day 15- Game Selection

I have no words to thank the opportunity to learn in this course donated by Cardschat and even with the amazing teachers Collin and Katie.

I was very happy with my grade (it was 10 score if I considered the extra question as a point - I scored 9) and with each hit it was vibrating like a win in poker, because I know I am really going the right way.

And not only that, because I too understand that I often made the right decision and sometimes not. And the examples of the course are great that most of the time you lose your hand, but I think it's excellent exactly to show that it doesn't matter the result but the best decision.

Very excited for the rest of the course and I will keep this opportunity with all my heart.

Good Lucky and Lets movie foward:jd4:;););););););););););)
 
belizebum

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Woohoo, made it half way through with 8 out of 10 on the quiz. I also have a hard time with the loosing a hand but right decision..lol. Guess I hate losing. So for me the right decision would be folding and technically winning because you dont lose all of your chips. The equity seems to be the hardest part for me. For the first section of this course, that will be where I focus my next studies on. Try to get it to stick. Thanks again Collin and Katie.
 
freddydr87

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Very important leason when peaple start playing poker for real they only care in putting massive amount off volume and they think that all will be ok, but table selection is very importat u can be the fish in one table and the super pro in another(been the same person), iff u can take a time selecting the tables u could pas from 5-6bb/100 to 10-15 selecting the ones that suets you well.
 
Luvart

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Finished Day #15.

Game selection is a very special topic that we could talk about it for hours and days.

I don't have decades.....of experience in poker, but from all these years of playing poker, even at the lowest stakes possible, I'm very close to agree with the statement in the course that, in the long run, game selection is the no.1 factor in winning at poker.

Then of course comes the skill, the bankroll, etc.
 
Phoenix Wright

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I have no words to thank the opportunity to learn in this course donated by Cardschat and even with the amazing teachers Collin and Katie.

I was very happy with my grade (it was 10 score if I considered the extra question as a point - I scored 9) and with each hit it was vibrating like a win in poker, because I know I am really going the right way.

And not only that, because I too understand that I often made the right decision and sometimes not. And the examples of the course are great that most of the time you lose your hand, but I think it's excellent exactly to show that it doesn't matter the result but the best decision.

Very excited for the rest of the course and I will keep this opportunity with all my heart.

Good Lucky and Lets movie foward:jd4:;););););););););););)
Hey! Me too! I got 9 correct plus the easy bonus point for a score of 10 :)

p.s. Agreed with the rest of the message too; this is a great course and I'm excited to move forward with all my heart.
 
Collin Moshman

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Thanks for all the nice words in this one guys, we really appreciate that!

And Whiskey, our daughter Lizzy greatly approves of your comment :D

 
redboy23

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Ouch, quite the mid term here.

I have decided to go back to the ring table with my renewed confidence and so far it is going well. Usually, when I get impatient playing MTT's and freerolls my bankroll disappears in cash games and I have to start all over. It is great that despite the monster beats I have been delt, especially in the CC freerolls, that I have not gone on tilt. I am determined to hold steady and grow my bankroll to a point where I can move away from just $.02 and $.10 S&G's/

Response to video question:

Question 1:

With ATo I would try to isolate the UTG player and bet 3 X BB. I think I would be able to stay out of trouble on most flops and try to take advantage of my position.

Holding 22 I would call since UTG has limped and there are many players to act behind. The hope is to hit a monster flop.

The K9o will be a fold for me, in that spot.

Question 2:

With 8h7h I would check as the board would be way too wet for me and there are 2 villains waiting to pounce.

Question 3:

I would fold. This hand looks like it may get me in trouble and villain has many AK. AQ, and pocket pairs in his range to 3-bet the UTG player.

Question 4:

The effective stack is 4383 and this looks like less that the 20:1 guide that I remember. It is less than 10:1 with the commitment of 630 more chips needed to win about 5000 in chips. I would fold to that type of aggression as villain has many higher pocket pairs in his range and still one villain to act behind!

Question 5:

With 18.3 % equity which represents 869 chip value.

Question 6:

As played there is no chance of winning the hand but just a slight chance that hero was on a draw. So I would decide how much I am willing to bluff with here. May have to part with two thirds of the pot or pot bet to make it believable.

Question 7:


The effective stack is less than 20 BB so I would maximize the chances of stealing the blinds and shove.

Question 8-9

There seems to be 12.1 K and hero has to bet about 7.1 K so under 2:1 odds here. I do not have the guts to call there but think it is an okay coin flip since hero does not need to commit too much of his stack. So cards which give a little over 33 % win rate needed here and Q5o would not give that in my book.

Question 10:

I really would have preferred the shove with that hand. Now that I have seen the turn card it is so much harder to continue with the plan. However, it makes sense to continue with the aggression and shove here.

The only term that comes to mind for the bonus question is variance. Everyone has highs and lows in the game but a professional player plays withing the right buy-in sizes compared to his bankroll to be rewarded over time. This is based on his skill of course.
 
Katie Dozier

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Ouch, quite the mid term here.

I have decided to go back to the ring table with my renewed confidence and so far it is going well. Usually, when I get impatient playing MTT's and freerolls my bankroll disappears in cash games and I have to start all over. It is great that despite the monster beats I have been delt, especially in the CC freerolls, that I have not gone on tilt. I am determined to hold steady and grow my bankroll to a point where I can move away from just $.02 and $.10 S&G's/

Response to video question:

Question 1:

With ATo I would try to isolate the UTG player and bet 3 X BB. I think I would be able to stay out of trouble on most flops and try to take advantage of my position.

Holding 22 I would call since UTG has limped and there are many players to act behind. The hope is to hit a monster flop.

The K9o will be a fold for me, in that spot.

Question 2:

With 8h7h I would check as the board would be way too wet for me and there are 2 villains waiting to pounce.

Question 3:

I would fold. This hand looks like it may get me in trouble and villain has many AK. AQ, and pocket pairs in his range to 3-bet the UTG player.

Question 4:

The effective stack is 4383 and this looks like less that the 20:1 guide that I remember. It is less than 10:1 with the commitment of 630 more chips needed to win about 5000 in chips. I would fold to that type of aggression as villain has many higher pocket pairs in his range and still one villain to act behind!

Question 5:

With 18.3 % equity which represents 869 chip value.

Question 6:

As played there is no chance of winning the hand but just a slight chance that hero was on a draw. So I would decide how much I am willing to bluff with here. May have to part with two thirds of the pot or pot bet to make it believable.

Question 7:


The effective stack is less than 20 BB so I would maximize the chances of stealing the blinds and shove.

Question 8-9

There seems to be 12.1 K and hero has to bet about 7.1 K so under 2:1 odds here. I do not have the guts to call there but think it is an okay coin flip since hero does not need to commit too much of his stack. So cards which give a little over 33 % win rate needed here and Q5o would not give that in my book.

Question 10:

I really would have preferred the shove with that hand. Now that I have seen the turn card it is so much harder to continue with the plan. However, it makes sense to continue with the aggression and shove here.

The only term that comes to mind for the bonus question is variance. Everyone has highs and lows in the game but a professional player plays withing the right buy-in sizes compared to his bankroll to be rewarded over time. This is based on his skill of course.


Awesome job answering these, Redboy! Looks like you're doing a great job taking the course :)
 
Edison A

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Well, I have only played Holdem in Buy-in tournaments, I have never invested money in other poker modalities, although I have won HORSE freerolls. This question in the course seemed very important to me “What is the most important factor in determining how much
money you'll make or lose in the long run playing a given poker game? ”.. all players want to win so it is important to play the poker mode that you feel most comfortable, and play levels that do not feel pressured and neither that they compromise your bank a lot, thanks guys for this article of the course
 
Katie Dozier

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Well, I have only played Holdem in Buy-in tournaments, I have never invested money in other poker modalities, although I have won HORSE freerolls. This question in the course seemed very important to me “What is the most important factor in determining how much
money you'll make or lose in the long run playing a given poker game? ”.. all players want to win so it is important to play the poker mode that you feel most comfortable, and play levels that do not feel pressured and neither that they compromise your bank a lot, thanks guys for this article of the course


Thanks and I'm glad you agree with what an important concept it is!
 
K

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i think i have to study and try again hhhhh
the fact that i admit it is a departure point i think hhhh
thank you for all this course.
 
Syltan

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The choice of tables is certainly important, and even very! But what to do if you play fast poker, unfortunately nothing to quit this thing and go play regular tables. I made this conclusion from this section because not a word has been written about it. On the other hand, there is a lot of software that will make the choice of a table for you, and it is the regulars who use it, which means that there will be many strong players at ordinary tables and a novice player will eat shark like it at regular tables and at fast tables.
 
Katie Dozier

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The choice of tables is certainly important, and even very! But what to do if you play fast poker, unfortunately nothing to quit this thing and go play regular tables. I made this conclusion from this section because not a word has been written about it. On the other hand, there is a lot of software that will make the choice of a table for you, and it is the regulars who use it, which means that there will be many strong players at ordinary tables and a novice player will eat shark like it at regular tables and at fast tables.
Yes, moving to regular speed tables is a great option if the turbos have too many winning regulars at them. At various points of my professional career I played even the majority reg-speed games when there were periods of times when the turbos became too dense. Great idea :)
 
Amanda A

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Hey Collin and Katie,
Thanks for the course! My question is about the 44 hand. So I got the implied odds right and my first response was that's a fold, you are not getting the 20 to 1 odds you need. But then I started getting confused as to why you need 20 to 1 to call a bet when you hit your set about 7.5 to 1 or 11.8 per cent of the time. If you assume when you hit your set you can win their stack, why can't you call a bigger bet than 5% of the effective stack? Is it because there are times when you hit your set and still lose the hand and there are times when you hit your set and don't get anymore chips out of your opponent? Thanks!!!
 
Collin Moshman

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Hey Collin and Katie,
Thanks for the course! My question is about the 44 hand. So I got the implied odds right and my first response was that's a fold, you are not getting the 20 to 1 odds you need. But then I started getting confused as to why you need 20 to 1 to call a bet when you hit your set about 7.5 to 1 or 11.8 per cent of the time. If you assume when you hit your set you can win their stack, why can't you call a bigger bet than 5% of the effective stack? Is it because there are times when you hit your set and still lose the hand and there are times when you hit your set and don't get anymore chips out of your opponent? Thanks!!!


Good question! The reason is that sometimes your opponent won't pay you off, and occasionally you'll still lose the hand. That's why 20:1 is usually best even though you're right it seems like you should be able to call more often than this.
 
Amanda A

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Just a follow up. Given that the 5 % of effective stack rule seems to have quite a bit of padding, are there times when you might want to bend the rule and take less than 20 to 1 on a spec hand? Also, how much of the padding is due to the fact that you lose sometimes when you make your set and how much due to the fact that sometimes you hit and don't get paid? This might play a part in when you might want to bend the rule. Take the first part - you make your set but you lose. One of the ways you could lose is someone having a higher set, so the higher your pair maybe the more you might want to bend the rule. With the second part, against bluffy splashier players who are likely to fall into your trap if you hit your set or against players who can't fold if they hit their A you also might want to bend the rule a little. Also on tough tables where one of your best chances to get ahead might be to hit a set, should you bend the rule? Then what about multiple players in a hand? Are you more likely to accept worse odds because there is a better chance that you will win at least one persons stack and possibly more than one stack if you hit? Would love to know your thoughts, even if it's "no you shouldn't bend the rule cause you will get yourself in trouble" ha ha.
 
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