Forced to go all in when running out of chips

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RickAversion

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Sparky's explanation that if you're too short stacked, people are going to call you makes a lot of sense. So, this is why you do want to start shoving at the 10BB mark, while you still have chips and can scare people into folding.
 
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smidjet

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i think you are more likely to take some chips the larger your stack so i would say that the 1st time you see a situation that looks like you could steal try, no matter what your cards just look for good situations
 
vinylspiros

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No. The question is about tournaments ainec. No one, and I mean no one, talks about "survival" in a cash game. "You will survive 3 more rounds."

Carry on...


Scourge.MYexact thoughts man. How can anyone possibly even cinsider that this is about a cash game. its definitely a tourney question. Survive few more rounds ...... push all in ......

its a tourney question and the answer is never let yourself fall below 15BB and even consider not open shoving .
 
vinylspiros

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the advantages of shoving with a 15-20 BB stack is that, when you double up, you are usually way above average, or at average at least. at any given point in the tourney past the hour mark and in some structures, even sooner. Also if you dont get tou double up because your stack was too big for someone to comfortably call, you get to steal the blinds which are usually at this point a huge percentage of your stack.
 
dirtyoldog

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if i only have 200 chips i will wait till blinds come around than shove with garbage. thats just me, chip n a chair
 
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RickAversion

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I also need to make one huge shift in mindset for MTT. As a n00b, I just play to not lose. If I am still playing, and not busted yet, I am "winning". But, that means nothing in the end of a MTT. So, you shove early, b/c you're trying to WIN, not just PLAY. If your goal is to just play (entertainment for 2 hours), you're better off seeing 100 more hands and playing tight. But, odds are you're not going to win the MTT that way. If your goal is to win, you need to shove early so you can get into the lead, like vinylspiros said above. If I ever go to a MTT at a casino, I am not looking to win, but just play as long as possible, I can hold off on shoving.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I also need to make one huge shift in mindset for MTT. As a n00b, I just play to not lose. If I am still playing, and not busted yet, I am "winning". But, that means nothing in the end of a MTT. So, you shove early, b/c you're trying to WIN, not just PLAY. If your goal is to just play (entertainment for 2 hours), you're better off seeing 100 more hands and playing tight. But, odds are you're not going to win the MTT that way. If your goal is to win, you need to shove early so you can get into the lead, like vinylspiros said above. If I ever go to a MTT at a casino, I am not looking to win, but just play as long as possible, I can hold off on shoving.

Well, if entertainment and playing time is what you seek - then play however you see fit.

I play MTTs to win. Everyone posting here probably does also.
 
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pokerjack43

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^^This +1 - but should it be more around 10BB for any two cards in tournament?
Yes, but if i see someone playing tight then all of a sudden they go all in with 10 BB im calling with anything more than total junk, co i know what they are doing 15bb or more then you still get a little respect and you are mixing up your play. I often start shving at around 20bb with no worries.

I still don't get it. If BB is 100, and I have 1000 chips, and there are 10 players, I can play for HOURS longer. Why would you panic when you have 100 more hands coming your way. (Well, if you count small blind of 50, that's $150 per cycle, so that means 7 more cycles or 70 more hands) Are you saying to start shoving in this early, since it's not really 70 more hands b/c the blinds are going to increase? Even still, you still have 30-40 hands left, so I'm not shoving in with a Jack high just yet.

I also need to make one huge shift in mindset for MTT. As a n00b, I just play to not lose. If I am still playing, and not busted yet, I am "winning". But, that means nothing in the end of a MTT. So, you shove early, b/c you're trying to WIN, not just PLAY. If your goal is to just play (entertainment for 2 hours), you're better off seeing 100 more hands and playing tight. But, odds are you're not going to win the MTT that way. If your goal is to win, you need to shove early so you can get into the lead, like vinylspiros said above. If I ever go to a MTT at a casino, I am not looking to win, but just play as long as possible, I can hold off on shoving.

If you are looking to play for fun then you need another game. This isnt elitist talk or me trying to put you down. The only objective of poker is to win chips. Games are not measured in hours they are measured in amounts.

If you play a cash game or sit and go and in the first hand clean everyone out do you still continue to play? no thats it game over, you have the chips, you have made a profit. of course you can start a new game but the first game is over. thanks for coming, thanks for the chips.

If you want to improve as a player and get more enjoyment from the game then you need to adjust your mind set. Its not cruel or greedy, it is the point of the game.

If you want to socialise, then by all means socialise. poker does have a very strong social part. but remember the object is to get the chips, not slowly allow yours to trickly away until you are forced to leave.

The value of poker doen not come from how long you can play the game but how much you can win.

Infact, by simply 'staying alive' in the game you have to fold hands, and if yo u are folding then you arent taking part in the game which defeats the point of playing poker. You can get the same enjoment from a game of bridge or gin.
 
Kenzie 96

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I also need to make one huge shift in mindset for MTT. As a n00b, I just play to not lose. If I am still playing, and not busted yet, I am "winning". But, that means nothing in the end of a MTT. So, you shove early, b/c you're trying to WIN, not just PLAY. If your goal is to just play (entertainment for 2 hours), you're better off seeing 100 more hands and playing tight. But, odds are you're not going to win the MTT that way. If your goal is to win, you need to shove early so you can get into the lead, like vinylspiros said above. If I ever go to a MTT at a casino, I am not looking to win, but just play as long as possible, I can hold off on shoving.


Have seen this attitude expressed before and as before it makes no sense. Just log on to a poker site, or go to a casino & grab a seat in the gallery & watch to your hearts content. What are you trying to accomplish by investing money in a game you're not trying to win? Go to the play money tables, you can play forever & gain next to nothing of value. Win, win. :confused:
 
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RickAversion

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You gotta start small. For a casino n00b, you're just trying not to lose all your money in 10 minutes. With experience comes the confidence to think you can actually win. It may only take one visit.
 
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rhombus

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You gotta start small. For a casino n00b, you're just trying not to lose all your money in 10 minutes. With experience comes the confidence to think you can actually win. It may only take one visit.
maybe playing in a casino is different especially if you have driven along way then people tend to play tighter and enjoy the game more as a social game.
If playing online however if you go into the game with the attitude I just dont want to lose, thats exactly what will happen. Scared money is dead money:eek:
 
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RickAversion

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I am only talking about live casino.
I thought playing for money online was banned in the USA.
 
Samango

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I am only talking about live casino.
I thought playing for money online was banned in the USA.


Are we supposed to be guessing where you live as well as what type of game you're playing? lol

(Scourge is right, of course)
 
dj11

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You gotta start small. For a casino n00b, you're just trying not to lose all your money in 10 minutes. With experience comes the confidence to think you can actually win. It may only take one visit.

I am reminded of a '1 and done' tourney I played.

I got 99 and raised, got reraised and I thought for a while, and even said out loud "Do I want to do a 1 and done" thingy? Then I shoved, and villain showed AA, it held and I indeed did the 1 and done thingy.

I laughed as I did the walk of shame. One of my better learning experiences actually, I will never do THAT again!. IIRC, I went to another casino and played long enough to break even for the day.

Think about it, when someone raises small into you, how much weight do you attribute to that raise and how often will you call that raise. Change the thought to a shove into you with cards that you might really want to see a flop with. DO you do the emotional call there or does your intellect take over and tell you the right thing to do.

If they see you never raise, and if you did then had to show AA, KK, QQ, you will get little action, and give away a lot of info to your villains, for little gain.

If they all of a sudden see a shove from you when what they have 'learned' about you does not warrant such a move, they will likely rethink wanting to call you. But if you limp in, or min raise, it would fit in with their thinking about you. They would call especially when you price them into the hand.

So if a big raise works against you better than a small raise, what makes you think that you doing the raising won't make them doing the backing down?

That is why it becomes a shove at 10 'M' which is typically 15 BB's. A raise of 10 BB's is significant enough to get everyones attention, You need a pretty damn good hand to call and as we all know, pretty damn good hands are not happening as frequently as any of us believe.

BTW the traditional thoughts were to shove with an M of 10 (10 orbits remaining) (roughly the same as 15 bb's) and to loosen up your starting hands at an M of 20 (30 BB's), so that you don't get beat up with a nittish table image.

Depending on the tourney, sometimes you don't start with 30 BB's (turbo's and super turbo's in particular) and you have to play those much looser from the git go.

If you are not willing to shove with 10-15 BB's, you might as well walk away from the table and let yourself get blinded out. You are playing cards, but not playing poker at that point.

Stop trying to trap, and start raising. If you have to re-train yourself to do this try doing it online in play money games. As noobs, we have/had tendencies that we do/did not realize are easily seeable by everyone else.

The only time to consider not raising with a small 'M' or very few BB's is when you are already in the money, your cards seem dead, and blinding out may help you climb up the pay ladder.
 
UhhWee

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I have always thought it was around 15BBs but I have also heard it said that 20BBs is now considered the new short point... hmmm
 
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Can someone clarify 20BB's? At a table of 10, if you can afford 20BB's, that means 200 hands.
Isn't that a bit early to panic? That seems excessive.
I start going all in once I can only afford like 2 more BB's. (ie: 20 more hands)
20 big blinds means you can limp in and see 20 flops if you call a raise its less, not much room for error,
after 200 hands of not winning youll have no chips
 
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