I've been playing poker for a short time (seriously, at least), but every day I convince myself that the most valuable play I can do is fold a couple of aces when someone obviously has trips, or fold trips when there is almost certainly a Full-house on the table.


Books often talk about the texture of the flop and read your opponents. But I think sometimes it is not enough. I had to make a poster and paste it on the wall: FOLD. You open with JJ in UTG, one player makes 3bet and the next one puts all his chips in the middle. Do you have a good stack yet? Then, FOLD! You open with a pair of kings, the flop comes all of hearts and your opponent does all-in. Can he be bluffing? Of course. Finding out can leave you out of the tournament.

They are examples, no need to discuss them. But I simply believe that, along with learning to select the cards with which one is going to play, the first step should be to learn to fold them quickly when you are behind.

What do you think?

absolutely. i think knowing when to fold is one of the most important skills and actions you can make in any form of poker. when i first started playing poker especially online where you get so many hands per hour and because i'm so competitive, i hated the idea of folding because it felt like i was giving in to the villain. i learned real quick that there's no room for ego

I think if, sometimes to fold a hand that seems good, you can avoid losing all your chips, and this can help you go far in a tournament.

You Tube

Originally Posted by jadaminato

I've been playing poker for a short time (seriously, at least), but every day I convince myself that the most valuable play I can do is fold a couple of aces when someone obviously has trips, or fold trips when there is almost certainly a Full-house on the table.


Books often talk about the texture of the flop and read your opponents. But I think sometimes it is not enough. I had to make a poster and paste it on the wall: FOLD. You open with JJ in UTG, one player makes 3bet and the next one puts all his chips in the middle. Do you have a good stack yet? Then, FOLD! You open with a pair of kings, the flop comes all of hearts and your opponent does all-in. Can he be bluffing? Of course. Finding out can leave you out of the tournament.

They are examples, no need to discuss them. But I simply believe that, along with learning to select the cards with which one is going to play, the first step should be to learn to fold them quickly when you are behind.

What do you think?

In 95% of cases you will never know if you are ahead or if you're behind until the showdown. What you're trying to say here smells bad. You can browse HighRoller games for free at the PokerStars each day and see how often these guys are folding their KK/JJ on the flop. LOL. In 80% of cases, doesn't matter if it's $500 or $10K buy-in, JJ-KK and AJ+ is a NO FOLD.
If top regs open with KK and there is a flop full of hearts while they have no hearts, and opponent goes all-in then it's a 100% call if there is no ace on the flop. I would do the same, 100% of times, cause in 95% of cases you're against top pair holding overpair or against a heavy OESD-FLush Draw holding a pair, and it's a sure call. There are exclusions like bubble time with much smaller stack than both players in such hand.

Your problem is that you're thinking about online poker like you can feel something and you believe that it's true, before you've seen the real truth. Huds lie, players lie, it's a game for liars and played by liars, if you want to play fair game and will fold too often with dominating hands just because you have feelings that give you doubts then you won't be a winning player. Even if the flop is full of hearts, and you're holding KK with no hearts and your opponent is pushing all-in and HE HAS THAT FLUSH, STILL YOU have outs to hit that full house or quads... He caught his 0.5% of luck and hit that flush on the flop, but you have your 2% of luck to hit your full house on the river.

P.S. It's better to play 15+ tourneys per day using "I will never fold during early stage of the MTT" strategy, than to play just 1 tourney with doubts and fears. You will see the final table much more often in the first scenario... And you know... most of the prize pool is right there, at the final table.

P.P.S. Make another poster: "Luck favors the Brave" and place it on top of the "Fold" poster

i agree fold is a great button take advantage of
however seems players aggressive in later stages tournament often victorious

I absolutely agree! It's also the hardest skill to acquire - I'm still actively working on it.

Originally Posted by MattRyder

I absolutely agree! It's also the hardest skill to acquire - I'm still actively working on it.

hi hi
Matt never fold when play me, usually take many my chips lol

Originally Posted by finaltable1

In 95% of cases you will never know if you are ahead or if you're behind until the showdown. What you're trying to say here smells bad. You can browse HighRoller games for free at the PokerStars each day and see how often these guys are folding their KK/JJ on the flop. LOL. In 80% of cases, doesn't matter if it's $500 or $10K buy-in, JJ-KK and AJ+ is a NO FOLD.
If top regs open with KK and there is a flop full of hearts while they have no hearts, and opponent goes all-in then it's a 100% call if there is no ace on the flop. I would do the same, 100% of times, cause in 95% of cases you're against top pair holding overpair or against a heavy OESD-FLush Draw holding a pair, and it's a sure call. There are exclusions like bubble time with much smaller stack than both players in such hand.

Your problem is that you're thinking about online poker like you can feel something and you believe that it's true, before you've seen the real truth. Huds lie, players lie, it's a game for liars and played by liars, if you want to play fair game and will fold too often with dominating hands just because you have feelings that give you doubts then you won't be a winning player. Even if the flop is full of hearts, and you're holding KK with no hearts and your opponent is pushing all-in and HE HAS THAT FLUSH, STILL YOU have outs to hit that full house or quads... He caught his 0.5% of luck and hit that flush on the flop, but you have your 2% of luck to hit your full house on the river.

P.S. It's better to play 15+ tourneys per day using "I will never fold during early stage of the MTT" strategy, than to play just 1 tourney with doubts and fears. You will see the final table much more often in the first scenario... And you know... most of the prize pool is right there, at the final table.

P.P.S. Make another poster: "Luck favors the Brave" and place it on top of the "Fold" poster

Great answer, can’t be afraid playing poker.

Originally Posted by jadaminato

I've been playing poker for a short time (seriously, at least), but every day I convince myself that the most valuable play I can do is fold a couple of aces when someone obviously has trips, or fold trips when there is almost certainly a Full-house on the table.


Books often talk about the texture of the flop and read your opponents. But I think sometimes it is not enough. I had to make a poster and paste it on the wall: FOLD. You open with JJ in UTG, one player makes 3bet and the next one puts all his chips in the middle. Do you have a good stack yet? Then, FOLD! You open with a pair of kings, the flop comes all of hearts and your opponent does all-in. Can he be bluffing? Of course. Finding out can leave you out of the tournament.

They are examples, no need to discuss them. But I simply believe that, along with learning to select the cards with which one is going to play, the first step should be to learn to fold them quickly when you are behind.

What do you think?

The KK is a terrible example, will you bet all your chips right away after hitting a monster on flop when you were not the preflop aggressor? If he does have the flush he is a weak player and you tag him and add the note. To Fold is not a skill, knowing when is more profitable at long run when or when not to fold is the skill. You need to be careful that you are not giving away chips by being to tight.

Knowing what a Fold is in poker and how to profitably use this solution, you can increase your profits.The player must make a profit by minimizing the wrong decisions and realizing the potential in profitable situations that generate income in the long run.

I've never seen such horrible advice as finaltable1,
never fold early in a mtt? What a stupid piece of advice.
its better to play 15 tourneys knowing to fold if it looks like your beat then to chase a 5% piece of luck.
Knowing when to fold is the MOST valuable knowledge to have in cash games and tournaments.
that guys calling an all-in with sixes and getting dominated by sevens, or he's calling an allin with aj and getting dominated by ak.
You don't get to a final table by making bad calls you get there by knowing when to fold them and when to hold them and the fold is a lifegiver not a lifetaker.
Even a "bad" fold is a good fold.
But a bad call is never a good call too.

Hi.
Obviously, a good player must be able to critically analyze the situation and make the most optimal decision, which usually involves such an option as a fold.
Good luck.

Folding a hand if you see that you are behind is definitely very important. Numerous times i had situations when i have 2 pairs for example and somebody have set or trips. It is difficult to let such hand go but it is the correct decision.

Yes, knowing when to fold a hand is the most valuable and perhaps the most difficult of Poker, from my point of view there is the difference in winning or losing money

here's a good fold for ya, just happened

in a freeroll
big raise to me, I have aj offsuit, i'm thinking that raise is oversized i'm beat here
I fold, 2 players behind me calls
flop is spade ace spade
they both get their chips in, the first raise was a6 spades, the caller behind me was ak offsuit
i'm crushed here by the ak offsuit if i'm in this hand
turn is a spade so a6 spades wins pot, but I still have all my chips and life
sometimes ya gotta let a decent hand go

Yes, certainly. A big trap is feeling uplifted when you see Aces. They're just a pair. You have to be focused enough to see what else is going on at the table before shoving with them.

Originally Posted by gwj63

here's a good fold for ya, just happened

in a freeroll
big raise to me, I have aj offsuit, i'm thinking that raise is oversized i'm beat here
I fold, 2 players behind me calls
flop is spade ace spade
they both get their chips in, the first raise was a6 spades, the caller behind me was ak offsuit
i'm crushed here by the ak offsuit if i'm in this hand
turn is a spade so a6 spades wins pot, but I still have all my chips and life

sometimes ya gotta let a decent hand go

heres the update just to complete the story
there were 382 players 10 get paid
I finished 21st with ak clubs vs kk
my point here is, without that fold I don't get this deep and definitely no final table
luck doesn't favor the brave, that's wishful thinking
luck favors the good, or the stupid, but being "brave" in poker is a losing theory in my opinion

At the moment, for me, reading the opponent correctly and making the right decision is a challenge. Often I go vabank with a good combination and lose. Therefore, folding is a good skill. Great game when you consider other factors. Just backing down every time players raise, re-raise, all-in is the way to nowhere.

Originally Posted by KristaK

hi hi
Matt never fold when play me, usually take many my chips lol

It's a work in progress.

Yes I agree with you. On first place the right folds ,2nd place are correct valuebets and on the 3rd - exploitation of opponents.

Yes, but, specifically, folding a big pair, pre-flop, requires real discipline and instinct but is much easier, in many ways, than being able to fold an over pair or top pair after the flop, especially if you suspect that your opponent has a set.

It is a "raw" ability to fold when you know you have a good hand but feel that the opponent has something stronger or is lucky to catch something powerful. In those moments I feel that it is not fair what is happening but you have nothing to do, this is poker!

I typically fold "good" hands pre-flop when there are multiple re-raises or all-ins, as long as I haven't invested too much in the pot, I'll usually fold and let the hand play out. I rarely end up regretting folding. I fold a lot in low stakes MTT's or freerolls early on because people play way too loose for my liking, and I get more aggressive as the blinds get higher and we get closer to the money.

Originally Posted by finaltable1

In 95% of cases you will never know if you are ahead or if you're behind until the showdown. What you're trying to say here smells bad. You can browse HighRoller games for free at the PokerStars each day and see how often these guys are folding their KK/JJ on the flop. LOL. In 80% of cases, doesn't matter if it's $500 or $10K buy-in, JJ-KK and AJ+ is a NO FOLD.
If top regs open with KK and there is a flop full of hearts while they have no hearts, and opponent goes all-in then it's a 100% call if there is no ace on the flop. I would do the same, 100% of times, cause in 95% of cases you're against top pair holding overpair or against a heavy OESD-FLush Draw holding a pair, and it's a sure call. There are exclusions like bubble time with much smaller stack than both players in such hand.

Your problem is that you're thinking about online poker like you can feel something and you believe that it's true, before you've seen the real truth. Huds lie, players lie, it's a game for liars and played by liars, if you want to play fair game and will fold too often with dominating hands just because you have feelings that give you doubts then you won't be a winning player. Even if the flop is full of hearts, and you're holding KK with no hearts and your opponent is pushing all-in and HE HAS THAT FLUSH, STILL YOU have outs to hit that full house or quads... He caught his 0.5% of luck and hit that flush on the flop, but you have your 2% of luck to hit your full house on the river.

P.S. It's better to play 15+ tourneys per day using "I will never fold during early stage of the MTT" strategy, than to play just 1 tourney with doubts and fears. You will see the final table much more often in the first scenario... And you know... most of the prize pool is right there, at the final table.

P.P.S. Make another poster: "Luck favors the Brave" and place it on top of the "Fold" poster

Obviously you never know if you are behind or not, but the grace of the game is in being able to estimate it not ?. By the size of the bets, by the tells, or whatever. Never fold AJ? I think that is very debatable.

The other day I saw a video of a great tournament. A player opens with 77, another raises him with AK and a third pays with JJ. The flop comes A-7-J. The player with the sevens checks, the player with AK makes a continuation bet and the player with JJ pays. Here the matter is already suspicious. The turn is another Ace. The player of the sevens checks again, the player with AK decides to check and the player with the JJ makes a half pot bet. The player with the 77 goes all-in. What does the player do with AK? Folds ... But he has 3 aces! But the other two are singing that they have full-house (or at least one of them).

I agree that you need to take risks to win a tournament. But one thing is a risk and another to give away your chips. And I think it's better, if you don't know anything about another player, assume he has a hand instead of bluffing. But it's just my opinion.

P.S: I said there was no need to discuss the examples because I was obviously doing an exaggeration. What I wanted to underline was the point of view. For specific hand analysis there are sections in the forum.

P.P.S: A good player of this forum once told me: "Having a couple of aces means that you have the best chances before the flop, not that you will always win. Knowing how to recognize when you didn't do it will save you a lot of money."

Without a doubt, fold is one of the most valuable player skills. I think that this skill is gained only with experience. Few beginners are able to make such a difficult decision as a fold.

I always say that folding is the most important part of poker. Some people myself included sometimes have a hard time folding pocket kings but if an ace hits on the flop you better believe that you no longer have the best hand. I have lost more big hands with KK than anything else and it took me awhile to figure out that someone almost ALWAYS has pocket aces when I get dealt pocket kings. Tournaments where my VPIP is less than 20% I am ITM and over I rarely am. Folding can make the game pretty boring at times but it is a necessary skill to learn if you plan on becoming a good player.

I saw when in the tournament people under primary stack in $5,000! Remained with $198 chips, and then rose to $12,000 and then continued to play. Fold is definitely a good and necessary feature in Poker thinking. There is even a theory fold - it would slip bubble, you need to sholdice. So learn poker and you will know where to fold. Necessarily, can be straight for the even AA, in one way or another situation! So it all depends on the situation at the poker table! And even more depends on the situation of a person in life. We don't carry Poker into Life - we carry Life into Poker.

Not folding gets me when I am in the BB and defending from a min raise with something like J-8 suited and the flop comes out 8-8-J and i check and villain shoves, how can i fold to that flop so I call and he shows pocket jacks. Things like that happen often when I know I should have folded pre-flop. Someone once said something like "If you see a lot of hands bad stuff WILL happen. Not might happen WILL happen". That has always stuck with me and has helped my game a lot.

During the live tournament I played, I made two very tight but correct plays. First with AQ suited, I flop top pair on a rainbow board, but the other player turns a gutter. River was a blank and he checked, and I checked. I showed and he was in shock.

3 hands later I flop top two pair, but the river was the 3rd spade. I made a blocker bet and he raises big. I go in the tank and fold face up. Again, in shock, he shows his medium flush.

Just because you have a good hand, doesn't mean you have to call the entire way if you feel you're losing.

Originally Posted by jadaminato

Obviously you never know if you are behind or not, but the grace of the game is in being able to estimate it not ?. By the size of the bets, by the tells, or whatever. Never fold AJ? I think that is very debatable.

The other day I saw a video of a great tournament. A player opens with 77, another raises him with AK and a third pays with JJ. The flop comes A-7-J. The player with the sevens checks, the player with AK makes a continuation bet and the player with JJ pays. Here the matter is already suspicious. The turn is another Ace. The player of the sevens checks again, the player with AK decides to check and the player with the JJ makes a half pot bet. The player with the 77 goes all-in. What does the player do with AK? Folds ... But he has 3 aces! But the other two are singing that they have full-house (or at least one of them).

I agree that you need to take risks to win a tournament. But one thing is a risk and another to give away your chips. And I think it's better, if you don't know anything about another player, assume he has a hand instead of bluffing. But it's just my opinion.

P.S: I said there was no need to discuss the examples because I was obviously doing an exaggeration. What I wanted to underline was the point of view. For specific hand analysis there are sections in the forum.

P.P.S: A good player of this forum once told me: "Having a couple of aces means that you have the best chances before the flop, not that you will always win. Knowing how to recognize when you didn't do it will save you a lot of money."

You see, a question was asked several months ago: You're in the main event of the WSOP, the very first hand, you have ACES, and there is all-in in front of you, would you call? I've answered - NO. Why? Because it's a 5 day event and I have 80% chance to win the first hand and 20% chance to end the tournament. Since this 5-7 day event is a important game for me, then I would play carefully without taking risky decisions.

If you're playing the most important poker game of your life - you can play these mind games of yours, and see what will happen. Only the luck will help you. Reads, tells, whatever it's just a BS if you're playing against poker player who isn't a robosapiense.

"I know, that you know that I know what you did last time, so I know what to do when the right time comes" - Do you really believe that it works and it will ever make you a special player?

In majority of online tournaments, up to 70% of hands are played pre-flop. It's range vs range, bankroll battle. Can you afford to lose or hit min cash 30 times in a row in that $530 MTT? If you can then 31st time you'll hit that 1st place and will win +60 buy-ins, so you can shoot for it again.

Why did I tell you to watch the HR games? You can clearly see there, that before the final table top 4-5, in 90% of hands you will see all-in before the river card. Folding a set of Aces, because you had a feeling or you've noticed some tells in online poker at top level? YOu will see only what your opponent wants you to see.

Objective thinking vs Subjective thinking. Each player, each person has his own, personal opinion about items or processes, this opinion is subjective, it's based on subjective thinking. Opposite is objective thinking, this is the truth as it is, just the naked facts, without any personal bullsht.

You can win a million starting with 10K bankroll by thinking objectively during your poker sessions. You have to understand that it will take time, a lot of steps, and the more objective(closer to the mathematical truth) your game will be - the better will be your results in the long run, so during a year or several you will make your first million.

What will happen to you and to your 10K bankroll if you'll be playing subjectively? Ok, let's say you've folded several times correctly, you've been lucky, or not - you will never know, cause there was no showdown. When you'll do that first wrong decision - the snowball will start rolling from the top of the mountain of your mind, and TILT will start moving your bankroll down to the ground. Tilt is psychological factor and it starts with a psychological problem. When top players wait during a hand, they calculate things, they're playing only mathematical game and this is the main reason why tilt isn't visiting them, these mathematical games are the reason why in the long run they're having profit... It's a fail to think about reads and tells in online poker, even if your reads will work - you're going to be on tilt because of that, tilt is not coming only when you're losing, tilt also comes when you're winning by some accident.

What I'[ve typed above isn't related to live poker and also isn't related to micro-low-small limits... it's about mid-high limits and also useful for the small stakes... What you're saying about 77 vs AK vs JJ hand, and 3 players seen the flop, and they've ALSO after such flop they've seen the TURN!!! This is something really special, maybe couple of friends playing, or some hollywood drama where alien played against transformer and predator, idk.

Poker evolves you know, you're trying to describe some old style ABC game maybe, and maybe like 10-8 years ago it worked in online games, it's been a nice time when standard opening bet was 4BB, but today, when people prefer to limp Aces or bet straddle with them, today, I believe that what you're saying is a road to disaster. People today don't even like to fold at the river when their opponent let's them see the river for cheap, they see that their OESD or Flush draw haven't closed and what's next? It's like 50/50 if both opponents would like to see the showdown, so in 50% cases one of them will fold. It might be the one who was betting or the one who was calling. So the funny fact is that the one who was betting is taking it as a serious game, he's a tight and smart player, he thinks of his remaining stack like if it's 90BB, and 90BB is a big stack... THEN the one who has nothing, just a draw... he can take the pot with a little help of all-in button. Just because he knows that his opponent is careful, tight smartie. And he will also take it easy, cause he's not thinking about his stack as a 80-90-150BB stack, he thinks of it like if it's $11 or $109 or $530 bet (the buy-in) is it worth to bet these money for the pot in front of the table against THIS opponent who plays mind games? In 70% of cases it's worth to try, cause you will fold.

P.S. Do you understand that during "in the money" stage and before the final table = before the big payjumps, at this stage online professionals play much more loose, than they've played before the money? Reads and tells are absolutely useless at this stage. You will more likely see the final table only in case if you're extremely lucky with high volume of pocket monster hands together with awesome post-flop luck. Reads-tells, damn I've been watching 10K buy-in bounty SCOOP final today, you can watch the replay, during top 5, Austrian player opened with 2BB, Canadian called 2BB with A9s, and Russian also has called with AA. How can you read this? How can you read your opponent if he opens 2.2BB with 73os and same 2.2BB with pocket Kings and his cbets on the flop-turn are the same each time, doesn't matter what cards are there? You can only play the same, adjusting your pre-flop open/call/shove ranges to the situation and calculating postflop maths, forgetting about the "mind games" part

Folding is invaluable. It should be regarded as a profitable play.

VPIP rates of around 20% are thought to be sensible. However, studies reveal some professional players have a VPIP rate lower than that, sometimes noticeably so.

Personally I have felt the dynamic of 'going for the win' at all costs (often attached with macho swagger) had past its sell by date. I think a key reason for this is the number of vlogs/streams in recent years which show the reality of online and live poker.


People can see what an exceptional thing it is to win...and you grasp how important it is to cash to maintain a healthy bankroll. That means making sensible decisions along the way including bluffing yes, but also the ability to lay down a hand

Originally Posted by finaltable1

You see, a question was asked several months ago: You're in the main event of the WSOP, the very first hand, you have ACES, and there is all-in in front of you, would you call? I've answered - NO. Why? Because it's a 5 day event and I have 80% chance to win the first hand and 20% chance to end the tournament. Since this 5-7 day event is a important game for me, then I would play carefully without taking risky decisions.

If you're playing the most important poker game of your life - you can play these mind games of yours, and see what will happen. Only the luck will help you. Reads, tells, whatever it's just a BS if you're playing against poker player who isn't a robosapiense.

"I know, that you know that I know what you did last time, so I know what to do when the right time comes" - Do you really believe that it works and it will ever make you a special player?

In majority of online tournaments, up to 70% of hands are played pre-flop. It's range vs range, bankroll battle. Can you afford to lose or hit min cash 30 times in a row in that $530 MTT? If you can then 31st time you'll hit that 1st place and will win +60 buy-ins, so you can shoot for it again.

Why did I tell you to watch the HR games? You can clearly see there, that before the final table top 4-5, in 90% of hands you will see all-in before the river card. Folding a set of Aces, because you had a feeling or you've noticed some tells in online poker at top level? YOu will see only what your opponent wants you to see.

Objective thinking vs Subjective thinking. Each player, each person has his own, personal opinion about items or processes, this opinion is subjective, it's based on subjective thinking. Opposite is objective thinking, this is the truth as it is, just the naked facts, without any personal bullsht.

You can win a million starting with 10K bankroll by thinking objectively during your poker sessions. You have to understand that it will take time, a lot of steps, and the more objective(closer to the mathematical truth) your game will be - the better will be your results in the long run, so during a year or several you will make your first million.

What will happen to you and to your 10K bankroll if you'll be playing subjectively? Ok, let's say you've folded several times correctly, you've been lucky, or not - you will never know, cause there was no showdown. When you'll do that first wrong decision - the snowball will start rolling from the top of the mountain of your mind, and TILT will start moving your bankroll down to the ground. Tilt is psychological factor and it starts with a psychological problem. When top players wait during a hand, they calculate things, they're playing only mathematical game and this is the main reason why tilt isn't visiting them, these mathematical games are the reason why in the long run they're having profit... It's a fail to think about reads and tells in online poker, even if your reads will work - you're going to be on tilt because of that, tilt is not coming only when you're losing, tilt also comes when you're winning by some accident.

What I'[ve typed above isn't related to live poker and also isn't related to micro-low-small limits... it's about mid-high limits and also useful for the small stakes... What you're saying about 77 vs AK vs JJ hand, and 3 players seen the flop, and they've ALSO after such flop they've seen the TURN!!! This is something really special, maybe couple of friends playing, or some hollywood drama where alien played against transformer and predator, idk.

Poker evolves you know, you're trying to describe some old style ABC game maybe, and maybe like 10-8 years ago it worked in online games, it's been a nice time when standard opening bet was 4BB, but today, when people prefer to limp Aces or bet straddle with them, today, I believe that what you're saying is a road to disaster. People today don't even like to fold at the river when their opponent let's them see the river for cheap, they see that their OESD or Flush draw haven't closed and what's next? It's like 50/50 if both opponents would like to see the showdown, so in 50% cases one of them will fold. It might be the one who was betting or the one who was calling. So the funny fact is that the one who was betting is taking it as a serious game, he's a tight and smart player, he thinks of his remaining stack like if it's 90BB, and 90BB is a big stack... THEN the one who has nothing, just a draw... he can take the pot with a little help of all-in button. Just because he knows that his opponent is careful, tight smartie. And he will also take it easy, cause he's not thinking about his stack as a 80-90-150BB stack, he thinks of it like if it's $11 or $109 or $530 bet (the buy-in) is it worth to bet these money for the pot in front of the table against THIS opponent who plays mind games? In 70% of cases it's worth to try, cause you will fold.

P.S. Do you understand that during "in the money" stage and before the final table = before the big payjumps, at this stage online professionals play much more loose, than they've played before the money? Reads and tells are absolutely useless at this stage. You will more likely see the final table only in case if you're extremely lucky with high volume of pocket monster hands together with awesome post-flop luck. Reads-tells, damn I've been watching 10K buy-in bounty SCOOP final today, you can watch the replay, during top 5, Austrian player opened with 2BB, Canadian called 2BB with A9s, and Russian also has called with AA. How can you read this? How can you read your opponent if he opens 2.2BB with 73os and same 2.2BB with pocket Kings and his cbets on the flop-turn are the same each time, doesn't matter what cards are there? You can only play the same, adjusting your pre-flop open/call/shove ranges to the situation and calculating postflop maths, forgetting about the "mind games" part

Thanks for your answer. I agree with some things with you and others not so much. As I said, I've been playing for a short time, but except for freerolls where everyone goes all-in with anything, I'm not sure that 70% of the hands are played before the flop. At least I don't think that in cardschat club tournaments it's like that.
I know that in the final table and before the plays are more radical and in those cases I agree that you cannot fold a pair of JJ, but also (I think) it has to do with the fact that the blinds are huge and along with the antes, They eat your stack, so you don't have much to speculate.
And with respect to professionals, I have seen Negreanu open with 10-8o y a Ivey make 3bet with A2s. Honestly, their ability is light years away from mine, so I limit myself to a simple game. If someone opens UTG I almost always put it in 10% of his/her hands (unless their statistics tell me otherwise). So, if a tight player opens UTG, another makes 3 bets and the UTG goes all-in, will I go in with my JJ or my AJ? Of course not. And sometimes they will show 10-10 or 5-5, but in that case I will put the note by their side and move on. As you said, you can't know what hand they have.

Originally Posted by jadaminato

Thanks for your answer. I agree with some things with you and others not so much. As I said, I've been playing for a short time, but except for freerolls where everyone goes all-in with anything, I'm not sure that 70% of the hands are played before the flop. At least I don't think that in cardschat club tournaments it's like that.
I know that in the final table and before the plays are more radical and in those cases I agree that you cannot fold a pair of JJ, but also (I think) it has to do with the fact that the blinds are huge and along with the antes, They eat your stack, so you don't have much to speculate.
And with respect to professionals, I have seen Negreanu open with 10-8o y a Ivey make 3bet with A2s. Honestly, their ability is light years away from mine, so I limit myself to a simple game. If someone opens UTG I almost always put it in 10% of his/her hands (unless their statistics tell me otherwise). So, if a tight player opens UTG, another makes 3 bets and the UTG goes all-in, will I go in with my JJ or my AJ? Of course not. And sometimes they will show 10-10 or 5-5, but in that case I will put the note by their side and move on. As you said, you can't know what hand they have.

Ivey )) Negreanu LOL
Hey have you see that Governator of California dude being a robot from the future, which was sent to the past by SkyNet to kill Sarah Connor? Maybe you've also seen Ronaldo the soccer player at the PCA tourney at the Bahamas on your screen? Is there any difference between Terminator at the screen and Phil Ivey playing poker for the cameras? How do you think, such even's like WSOP or EPT are designed to A) Generate direct profit or B) Create advertisement for something? It's the same as Olympic games. Sports and tickets sold are generating only losses, Olympic games can't extract as much direct profit from the tickets as football or tennis match. They have different ways, this horde of tourists will be spending money during their visit in different fields. Same story with poker on TV. I'm not trying to say that it's a fake, or rigged or corrupted, it's just different. Ask yourself, if someone knows how to turn steel into gold, and he was invited to world fair, will he be showing his unique skill for the whole world? Or he will show how to make a gold ring using gold bar at the fair and will keep silently turning steel to gold at home and selling gold rings to the world? What if Negreanu has earned official 30millions in tournament winnings under the cameras, but lets say that maybe during private live cash games he has won 120 millions. Will he be playing his best game if whole world can see his cards and how he plays them in such case? I don't think so, he'll be drawing an image of a loose fish. He will appear weak being strong. What if he's playing in $50K event, some 5-10M grtd, where cameras are filming his cards with such thoughts: "hahaha can I win with these trash cards in this cheap event for homeless donks"? and continuation thought "Oh I've won the pot, now my fish will think of me like I'm just a lucky fish" or "Oh I've lost, now my fish will think of me like i'm a dumb fish" Both ways it's good for his reputation that he's trying to draw for the world, it's like "hey I'm little bit loose fish and funny guy to play with".

Dude, if you haven't noticed... this world is upside down for past 30-40 years and it's moving inside out. Keep in mind that this game is played by the liars, whole industry of entertainment is based on lies, poker entertainment is liars playing in the industry of liars. You expect it to be the truth? Are you serious? It's designed to generate rake = profit for the owners, rake comes from large volume of games, such volume comes from number of players. If you'll compare poker to blackjack or roulette, then you will see that some players act like gamblers, other players act like dealers. They want majority to act like gamblers, cause this majority will be the ones who will be depositing money. Minority will act like the dealers = they will be playing mathematically correct game and together with generating the rake for the poker bosses they will also be increasing their personal bankroll. SO you have to decide, which side is yours. You can be that gambler who plays each 5 dollar tourney as seen on TV, folding cause you think that you've got that read and something told you that "he has it" or you can ignore the bullsht and simply add that green zero sector at your roulette or stop at 17 points. Cause this is mathematically correct, and this is the reason why you will have profit in the long run.

There is a $10K WCOOP-48-H game, current prize pool is $1.5mln, if you have a large TV - you can open 6-12 tables at the screen and observe the action. Let us know how often you will see hands like T8os or A2os at the showdown before the money time if both of the opponents have stacks over 15BB. I'm watching such games for years, however my biggest online buy-in was never above $215, but even in $22 online tourneys it's very hard to find a flop with someone calling a pre-flop bet or betting with T8os, if it's not a bounty tourney.

And regarding CC daily freerolls, if you're not a FRC member you can still observe. 50% of players have never heard about poker articles or books, don't care about any maths. 25% of them will go all-in pre with any Ace and any pair instead of playing flop-turn-river. And still this freeroll has better field than average field in 0.5-1.1-2.2MTTs... Today saw Ukrainean guy who pushed 130BB all-in with pocket aces from UTG... UTG!!!!! WITHOUT ANTES! 1.5 BB infront of him, he has ACES = 130BB stack and ALL-IN! and Brasilian guy with A8os calls with his 40BB stack. Which one of them is dumber? LOL. Or was it smart? If you haven't invested money, then how will you be playing? Will you sit like a tight nit playing mind games with no investments and possibly no profit, or just 50cents after 2 hours, or you'll be testing your luck trying to either A) Increase the stack ASAP or B) just close the poker client and spend your time for something more useful.

Originally Posted by finaltable1

Ivey )) Negreanu LOL
Hey have you see that Governator of California dude being a robot from the future, which was sent to the past by SkyNet to kill Sarah Connor? Maybe you've also seen Ronaldo the soccer player at the PCA tourney at the Bahamas on your screen? Is there any difference between Terminator at the screen and Phil Ivey playing poker for the cameras? How do you think, such even's like WSOP or EPT are designed to A) Generate direct profit or B) Create advertisement for something? It's the same as Olympic games. Sports and tickets sold are generating only losses, Olympic games can't extract as much direct profit from the tickets as football or tennis match. They have different ways, this horde of tourists will be spending money during their visit in different fields. Same story with poker on TV. I'm not trying to say that it's a fake, or rigged or corrupted, it's just different. Ask yourself, if someone knows how to turn steel into gold, and he was invited to world fair, will he be showing his unique skill for the whole world? Or he will show how to make a gold ring using gold bar at the fair and will keep silently turning steel to gold at home and selling gold rings to the world? What if Negreanu has earned official 30millions in tournament winnings under the cameras, but lets say that maybe during private live cash games he has won 120 millions. Will he be playing his best game if whole world can see his cards and how he plays them in such case? I don't think so, he'll be drawing an image of a loose fish. He will appear weak being strong. What if he's playing in $50K event, some 5-10M grtd, where cameras are filming his cards with such thoughts: "hahaha can I win with these trash cards in this cheap event for homeless donks"? and continuation thought "Oh I've won the pot, now my fish will think of me like I'm just a lucky fish" or "Oh I've lost, now my fish will think of me like i'm a dumb fish" Both ways it's good for his reputation that he's trying to draw for the world, it's like "hey I'm little bit loose fish and funny guy to play with".

Dude, if you haven't noticed... this world is upside down for past 30-40 years and it's moving inside out. Keep in mind that this game is played by the liars, whole industry of entertainment is based on lies, poker entertainment is liars playing in the industry of liars. You expect it to be the truth? Are you serious? It's designed to generate rake = profit for the owners, rake comes from large volume of games, such volume comes from number of players. If you'll compare poker to blackjack or roulette, then you will see that some players act like gamblers, other players act like dealers. They want majority to act like gamblers, cause this majority will be the ones who will be depositing money. Minority will act like the dealers = they will be playing mathematically correct game and together with generating the rake for the poker bosses they will also be increasing their personal bankroll. SO you have to decide, which side is yours. You can be that gambler who plays each 5 dollar tourney as seen on TV, folding cause you think that you've got that read and something told you that "he has it" or you can ignore the bullsht and simply add that green zero sector at your roulette or stop at 17 points. Cause this is mathematically correct, and this is the reason why you will have profit in the long run.

There is a $10K WCOOP-48-H game, current prize pool is $1.5mln, if you have a large TV - you can open 6-12 tables at the screen and observe the action. Let us know how often you will see hands like T8os or A2os at the showdown before the money time if both of the opponents have stacks over 15BB. I'm watching such games for years, however my biggest online buy-in was never above $215, but even in $22 online tourneys it's very hard to find a flop with someone calling a pre-flop bet or betting with T8os, if it's not a bounty tourney.

And regarding CC daily freerolls, if you're not a FRC member you can still observe. 50% of players have never heard about poker articles or books, don't care about any maths. 25% of them will go all-in pre with any Ace and any pair instead of playing flop-turn-river. And still this freeroll has better field than average field in 0.5-1.1-2.2MTTs... Today saw Ukrainean guy who pushed 130BB all-in with pocket aces from UTG... UTG!!!!! WITHOUT ANTES! 1.5 BB infront of him, he has ACES = 130BB stack and ALL-IN! and Brasilian guy with A8os calls with his 40BB stack. Which one of them is dumber? LOL. Or was it smart? If you haven't invested money, then how will you be playing? Will you sit like a tight nit playing mind games with no investments and possibly no profit, or just 50cents after 2 hours, or you'll be testing your luck trying to either A) Increase the stack ASAP or B) just close the poker client and spend your time for something more useful.

I only cited the professional players because you spoke just about them and that they never fold. Well, my point is that their game is of another level. If they never fold, good for them. You can visit the Winamax channel on YouTube and watch the video series "in the mind of a pro". There he shows you ALL the hands played by some of the professionals of his team (David Kitai, Adrián Mateos), while they explain the reason for each action. You can check two things:
1) Do not play 70% of the hands before the flop, in fact theyalmost always reachs the river.
2) The amount of variables analyzed in each movement is immense. It is not a simple or objective game.
3) When the bets do not give them the odds, or when they think the rival's rank is ahead, they fold.

Please check those videos if you want to comment something about it.

On the other hand, of course I am a member of the club. You can check it easily by clicking on my profile.

Finally, I don't have a bankroll that allows me to go around playing "luck". I have to play conscientiously and yes, sometimes I win only 0.50. But other times I make a final table and it is not thanks to a stroke of luck.

Folding is, in many cases, mathematically correct.

Hello.
I agree with you. This is a valuable skill that is only inherent in patient players. Personally, I have no problem with this. If I don't feel confident I can easily fold.

In one word....Yes. If you don't know when to fold you will lose a lot of money.

The ability to find a "fold" - a valuable quality. Without "fold" there will be no victories.

https://youtu.be/LI9yp3hxTHI

This video could show how not folding could be profitable. Here they call a 4-bet with KJs, and then calling standard c-bet.
Also is a great example of how good players are bluffing, so if you fold always you are being a good target to bluff

Originally Posted by jadaminato

I only cited the professional players because you spoke just about them and that they never fold. Well, my point is that their game is of another level. If they never fold, good for them. You can visit the Winamax channel on YouTube and watch the video series "in the mind of a pro". There he shows you ALL the hands played by some of the professionals of his team (David Kitai, Adrián Mateos), while they explain the reason for each action. You can check two things:
1) Do not play 70% of the hands before the flop, in fact theyalmost always reachs the river.
2) The amount of variables analyzed in each movement is immense. It is not a simple or objective game.
3) When the bets do not give them the odds, or when they think the rival's rank is ahead, they fold.

Please check those videos if you want to comment something about it.

On the other hand, of course I am a member of the club. You can check it easily by clicking on my profile.

Finally, I don't have a bankroll that allows me to go around playing "luck". I have to play conscientiously and yes, sometimes I win only 0.50. But other times I make a final table and it is not thanks to a stroke of luck.

Folding is, in many cases, mathematically correct.

Yes, fold is a correct move in many cases. My point is that at the top level in online poker in situation where players are not in the money and not in the bounty tourney and there is no dominating stack(equal conditions)... in this situation players rarely fold in post-flop action. Because at this stage players starting hands chart is divided to 2 parts 1) hands to go all-in with (top pocket pairs and top aces) and speculative hands (suited connectors, low pairs, trashy kings-aces). What you're trying to describe will fit only the situation when one player with speculative hand meets another player with speculative hand, and they both agreed to see the flop for cheap. Quite often all of the players with 80-100BB stacks prefer to fold to 3bet their speculative hands.

Investing 7-10% of the stack with marginal hands to see the flop, even in position isn't a EV+ decision. It might be good to invest not more than 7% of stack for set mining with pairs like 44-55-66, if you've seen the flop and it's full of broadway cards - then fold is a good decision. But like I've said before - it's only 30% of cases, in 70% of cases both of the players have pocket cards that they will never fold.

People play differently in online poker, let's say you've won a $55 ticket in the freeroll, it's a ticket to qualifier for highroller tournament. Then you win that qualifier and get the ticket to highroller game... OR you've been backed to play that game. You'll be playing like a scared mouse in the cage full of cats during first 3 hours of late registration. At the same time, those guys around you with 500K+ bankrolls will do up to 3 re-entries. You'll be folding a lot, and only luck can save you, this is the reason why by the end of the year, their bankroll will increase, and your bankroll will go down.

Dude, I'm tired of this discussion. I've been reading tons of articles and several poker books together with hand discussions very long time ago, when poker was my main source of income. Today i'm not even interested in this, and names like Kitai - well after observing his game at EPT I think that he's just a lucky fish... He made too many EV- decisions and got lucky too many times, I can't say that such players can teach you something, yet they can earn money for their streams and coaching, but the main reason for their popularity is not their poker skill, but it's the same reason why people like Arnold Schwarzennger, who is a terrible actor, but advertised person with some charisma and viewers like to associate themselves with some character in the movie, so his fans ignore the lack of acting skills and want to associate with muscles and charisma. Same with many poker players, in the game of luck they've won because of luck, not because of their mathematical skills, so the people associate with these poker pros just because they like how there pros look, smile or talk. That's all. Psychology is important in live poker games, you can induce fear in your opponent using your image, such things are not for online games. If you have fear, you have money pressure, you have "that feeling" that he has it - IN ONLINE POKER!!!?? and you're folding because of these reasons - then don't play the game. Objectively there are no true reasons for any senses. Players have equal access to the information, players at top level always stay in touch with fresh info, and what worked in previous hand most likely won't work in current hand, and your feelings are only making your mind blind.

Fold is a stack saving action. Personally I don't really like players who limp and who fold on the turn, they're saying " I just want to see the flop" or "I just want to see the turn card for cheap". I've been observing players in our poker club during live poker games and I've noticed that majority of such players are those who afraid to live, they're mostly followers, not creators, they live with "maybe yes and maybe not" on their mind in whatever they're doing. Women don't like such men, cause "maybe yes/maybe not" it's their position, while man has to decide if it's yes or not asap. It's a wise decision to fold oesd on the flop if opponent is pushing all-in, paying whole stack for good draw isn't really wise... it's a wise decision to fold small pair if your goal was set mining, but you had to decide pre-flop what you're expecting in the post-flop action and what price is good for you to continue. What is the price for Yes and what is the price for No, and exclude that "Maybe" part from your equations. If your decisions are split with such method, then most probably in equal conditions you'll be in 70% of cases opening with some hand you can go all-in with, and 30% for speculative hands... half or more times you'll be folding to 3bets with these 30% of speculative hands, SO we can clearly see that fold is always good when you're folding pre-flop with no extra investments, folding post-flop isn't a preferred action. This does not apply to the action during bubble time, and close to high pay jumps.

You know all people like to shine in the rays of fame. Majority of streamers, pros and regs are playing thousands of tourneys per year. At the same time they're showing only few of these tourneys to the world, they can explain everything what has happened there really well, just because luck was on their side and everything has happened like they've expected. So when their logic is on the same side with their luck - they feel like they're great and blessed and they can share their success with the world. But back side of the coin is another 98% of tournaments when they hit just min cash or been busted out before the money... people don't like to show these 98% of cases to the world.

You see, let's say you've won 50 cents, you can play 25 tournaments with 2cent buy-in and your total bankroll is $25. Let's say that during all 25 tournaments whole table goes all-in, will you be calling this massive all-in with any two cards? I won't fold any two, it's a good chance to increase the stack 9 times, or to save the time and spend it for something more useful than folding and waiting for a proper hand in 2cent tourney... Majority of those who have won several millions are playing those 100-200-500 dollar tournaments with the same idea on their mind. Ofc they won't push all-in with any two, they will stay in their range and will try to win as many chips as possible , but they know perfectly that FOLD isn't that special action which will help them to win those chips.

Fold is a necessary tactic but it is not the only one.

I agree that fold is a valuable skill. Fold in poker is an important decision that you need to be able to make at the right moment. But fold in poker is a difficult decision for beginners, including me.

Yes, folding is absolutely one of the game's most valuable skills. I don't think that any maneuver requires more discipline than folding your hand, when it is particularly strong, or when you have some suspicion that your opponent is bluffing.

Perhaps folding could be considered the most important "soft skill" of the game. A skill which hinges not upon your technical knowledge of the game (hand selection, odds, tells), but your own personal discipline, and control over your emotions.

I think what you're saying is correct, but certainly over simplified.

Learning to let your AA go when you "know" you're behind is a skill to be learned for sure. Way too many rookies think their rockets are invincible and will bet and raise all 3 streets and then call it a bad beat when they lose. BUT folding KK when a villian open shove a single suit flop is a -ev play in the long run if there is no A on the board. If I'm playing an unknown player and stack are average to deep and no immediate bubble or pay jumps, I'm calling all day long, even if I don't feel particularly good about it.

I would say knowing when to fold pre-flop is one of the most valuable skills all new players should learn AKA: Hand Selection and Position Play.

Fold top pair, it is primarily internal confidence, circumspection, experience and wisdom. I agree that it’s hard to fold AA or KK since emotions can completely prevail over the mind. That's why I think there is fast poker in a cash game where you can easily fold AA, AK, AQ, KK. Good luck with the game.

It is so much easier to shove it all in than to fold a 3bet river from your opponent.
Initial mindset of you to be in a hand is to win it, not losing.

Off course it's right. especially when the situation on the table is critical and pot stack is quiet high.

No River no Fish

To take the decision of Foldear a premium hand ... it is probably the most difficult skill to master ... see you in a post-flop situation in which your opponent clearly connected a better hand with the community cards ... and having to fold a couple of AA ... it's not easy ...!

Hi.
I think if you can fold with pocket AA then you see 3-8-8 on flop, and raise after your bet, you can do every thing.