My experience in going from 5NL to 10NL

[imwatcher]

Personally I think you should be 3-betting way more from the blinds, and basically play a little looser..

 

[WVHillbilly]

Yeah, I know that stat pops out at me too. I think frequently I feel like I'm "priced-in" by having several limpers or an early small raiser and several callers before the action gets to me. In my mind, (probably flawed ), if the pot is laying me like 4 or 5 to 1 on a call, I'll usually make the call. I think that's going to be the first thing I try to adjust. Still, I'm NOT completing 80% of the time there. What is a reasonable % for completing from the SB?

Personally I almost never just complete from the SB (on occasion with a small pp and a couple of really bad limpers maybe). I'll steal the line from Tommy Angelo in Elements of Poker (now available in ebook formats!!!), Why would I pay 1/2 price for something I don't want for free?

I also think you should play more hands from the BTN and CO at least. You could try 3betting more than just QQ+/AK as well.

 

[c9h13no3]

Personally I think you should be 3-betting way more from the blinds, and basically play a little looser..

Oh hey worst advice ever, I haven't seen you in a while.

 

[Big_Rudy]

OK, thanks guys. Lots of good stuff there that I want to try to integrate into my game. So far I've got:

tighten-up from the small blind
when I DO play from the blinds, play them more aggressively
loosen-up in general, but especially from LP
consider widening my 3-bet range

Yeah, that should keep me busy for a while .

By the way WVH, I've never heard of that particular book. I'll check it out too. At this point I feel I'm at a crossroads where I'll try anything to improve or, failing that, admit I'll never be "good" at poker and move-on to something else. Again, thanks for all the help.

 

[Big_Rudy]

Oh hey worst advice ever, I haven't seen you in a while.

Oh oh, the voice of dissent.... OK so either side, why should I either 3-bet more from the blinds, or not? A little insight into your reasoning/logic would be greatly appreciated. I DO really struggle with blind play, so....?

 

[Big_Rudy]

Ok, out of curiousity, I decided to post my .05nl stats as well for comparison. Comments? As you can see as was winning at a better rate here. The first things I notice are the still questionable blind play from the SB and the general overall slightly looser play. Still doesn't seem like I was 3-betting enough. I also notice that I was far less negative from the BB. But, that probably wasn't anything I was doing. It was probably just from the other plays putting less pressure on my blinds.

 

[c9h13no3]

Oh oh, the voice of dissent.... OK so either side, why should I either 3-bet more from the blinds, or not? A little insight into your reasoning/logic would be greatly appreciated. I DO really struggle with blind play, so....?

1) Players at micro limits usually do not steal as much as they should. Thus, 3-bet bluffing them isn't super effective.

2) Playing loose puts you in more complicated situations, and most of your win rate comes from your big hands (JJ+, AQ+). Loosening up "in general" is bad advice. Stealing more on the button or isolating more bad limpers on the button is good advice. I wouldn't really want your VPIP to move, 14% is fine for full ring. But I'd like to see you move more of that 14% to late position, and less of it from the blinds & UTG.

Also, stop thinking about your stats. Statements like "Still doesn't seem like I was 3-betting enough" are kinda dumb. The real question you should be asking is something more along the lines of "Am I 3-betting the right hands in the right situations?" If you're worried about your 3-bet/preflop game, then post some 3-bet situations in the hand analysis forum. But trying to move your 3-bet statistic up to some "optimal level" is bound to get you into trouble. See the difference? One way of thinking is just moving your stats to some level you think they should be, which is bad. The other way of thinking is trying to improve your preflop game so that you understand all the nuances that go into making preflop decisions, and that's the good way of trying to improve.

 

[WVHillbilly]

1) Players at micro limits usually do not steal as much as they should. Thus, 3-bet bluffing them isn't super effective.

2) Playing loose puts you in more complicated situations, and most of your win rate comes from your big hands (JJ+, AQ+). Loosening up "in general" is bad advice. Stealing more on the button or isolating more bad limpers on the button is good advice. I wouldn't really want your VPIP to move, 14% is fine for full ring. But I'd like to see you move more of that 14% to late position, and less of it from the blinds & UTG.

Also, stop thinking about your stats. Statements like "Still doesn't seem like I was 3-betting enough" are kinda dumb. The real question you should be asking is something more along the lines of "Am I 3-betting the right hands in the right situations?" If you're worried about your 3-bet/preflop game, then post some 3-bet situations in the hand analysis forum. But trying to move your 3-bet statistic up to some "optimal level" is bound to get you into trouble. See the difference? One way of thinking is just moving your stats to some level you think they should be, which is bad. The other way of thinking is trying to improve your preflop game so that you understand all the nuances that go into making preflop decisions, and that's the good way of trying to improve.

At 10nl where he's struggling he's playing 11/7. Loosening up when IP and tightening up in the blinds should help.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

At 10nl where he's struggling he's playing 11/7. Loosening up when IP and tightening up in the blinds should help.

Agreed.

People are not generally stealing enough and folding to blind raises enough to play back at.

Those that are often see themselves as some kind of 10NL Durrr and will refuse to fold thinking that they can do something magical post flop.

Against people who dont fold, dont put your whole stack at risk with a mediocre hand that you will often fold postflop for the sake of 1BB. You areent defending your blinds so much as putting your entire stack at risk.

 

[brank]

I think he's playing 6 max here... in which case I think he could/should loosen up a little but like C9 said make it the BU/CO where you open up your game so you can still play at a comfortable level of looseness. You can still be quite tight in EP when playin 6 max and pretty much be tighter in the blinds then in EP.

 

[Big_Rudy]

No, I only play full-ring. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I did play 6-max very early in my career, but quickly realized that I'm FAR too much of a nit for that game. Consequently, the stats above are all for full-ring only.

For those of you who responded with tips/advice and/or explained your reasoning of different concepts, thanks a lot. I currently plan to drop down to .05nl where I'm at least already winning, make the adjustments, and then move back up to .10nl once I get comfortable playing this new approach.

Regarding 3-betting, I didn't mean to imply that I should shoot for a certain %. It just seems like I don't 3-bet nearly enough - neither at .05nl, nor at .10nl. Currently I'm only 3-betting Q-Q+ and A-Ks. Sometimes not even Q-Q.

Clearly this can't be right since I frequently run into opponents with a PFR of 25% or higher. Lately I'm thinking that my range needs to not be so static (as it currently is), but should be more flexible and more villain dependant.

I'm not sure if I'm explaing my thinking clearly (nothing new there ), but here goes.... Say you decide to 3-bet NOT a set range of hands, but a certain % of villains PFR range, what would your % of villains range be to 3-bet him? Are you 3-betting him with, say, the top 30% of his PFR range? More? Less?

For example in two separate hands v. 2 separate villains....

Hand 1 villain's PFR over reasonable sample is 30%. Using my criteria of 3-betting him with the top 30% of his range, that would put me 3-betting the top 10% of hands v. this villain.

Hand 2 villain's PFR is much tighter, say 10%. Against this villain, using the same top 30% of his range criteria, I'd only be 3-betting him with only the top 3% of all hands.

Does any of this make sense? Or, am I way off-base here? I realize there is much more to it than this, position, table dynamics, villain aggression, etc,etc, etc. But, just as a general guideline, do you think this is a valid line of reasoning? Again, I'm NOT shooting for a certain % of all hands to 3-bet. Rather I'm searching for the proper % of villains PFR to use as a criteria for 3-betting.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Instead of coming up with ranges for 3betting certain opponents, focus on REASONS for 3betting. Is it for value (at micro stakes it almost always should be) or is it a bluff 3bet? Think about the range of hands you can profitably value 3bet against certain opponent types. Do they always call 3bets preflop or do they fold too often? Do they fold to every cbet unless they hit postflop or will they call down with Ace high? Will you be in or out or position postflop? How will you respond to a 4bet shove? If you flat a big pair in position will they fire 3 streets with their entire range but fold if you 3bet pre?

 

[Stu_Ungar]

No, I only play full-ring. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I did play 6-max very early in my career, but quickly realized that I'm FAR too much of a nit for that game. Consequently, the stats above are all for full-ring only.

For those of you who responded with tips/advice and/or explained your reasoning of different concepts, thanks a lot. I currently plan to drop down to .05nl where I'm at least already winning, make the adjustments, and then move back up to .10nl once I get comfortable playing this new approach.

Regarding 3-betting, I didn't mean to imply that I should shoot for a certain %. It just seems like I don't 3-bet nearly enough - neither at .05nl, nor at .10nl. Currently I'm only 3-betting Q-Q+ and A-Ks. Sometimes not even Q-Q.

Clearly this can't be right since I frequently run into opponents with a PFR of 25% or higher. Lately I'm thinking that my range needs to not be so static (as it currently is), but should be more flexible and more villain dependant.

I'm not sure if I'm explaing my thinking clearly (nothing new there ), but here goes.... Say you decide to 3-bet NOT a set range of hands, but a certain % of villains PFR range, what would your % of villains range be to 3-bet him? Are you 3-betting him with, say, the top 30% of his PFR range? More? Less?

For example in two separate hands v. 2 separate villains....

Hand 1 villain's PFR over reasonable sample is 30%. Using my criteria of 3-betting him with the top 30% of his range, that would put me 3-betting the top 10% of hands v. this villain.

Hand 2 villain's PFR is much tighter, say 10%. Against this villain, using the same top 30% of his range criteria, I'd only be 3-betting him with only the top 3% of all hands.

Does any of this make sense? Or, am I way off-base here? I realize there is much more to it than this, position, table dynamics, villain aggression, etc,etc, etc. But, just as a general guideline, do you think this is a valid line of reasoning? Again, I'm NOT shooting for a certain % of all hands to 3-bet. Rather I'm searching for the proper % of villains PFR to use as a criteria for 3-betting.

Its not the worst idea of 3betting I have ever heard.

However!

What you are doing is constructing a value range that works welll against villians who call a lot of 3bets.

You bet 3bet the top 30% of their range, get called and get to play a 3bet pot in position with a hand that is above their average holding.

However what if they fold a lot to 3bets?

You now fold out most hands you beat so you end up folding out most weaker hands when you have a strong hand and playing postflop poker when you hold a weaker hand.

So like WV says, you need to think firstly about why you are 3betting and what your 3bet achieves before deciding what you 3bet.

 

[Big_Rudy]

OK, guys, thanks for all the input. I think my head is going to explode now . Its interesting to me to see how higher-level players think through the different processes. The problem is that (right now) you guys are thinking at, like, level 5,487 and I'm thinking at about level 3 . Seriously, though, thanks for all your help and ideas. It does me a lot of good to hear different explainations/ thoughts behind the actions rather than to simply say "Do this, dummy."

 

[c9h13no3]

It does me a lot of good to hear different explainations/ thoughts behind the actions rather than to simply say "Do this, dummy."

Post hands in the hand analysis forum, you will hear great explanations and refine your game a ton... dummy.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Post hands in the hand analysis forum, you will hear great explanations and refine your game a ton... dummy.

Do this, dummy!

 

[Big_Rudy]

LOL....thanks guys, I think. I will start checking out the posted HH and maybe even post some myself. Still, sometimes the advice there gets TOO specific, sometimes I just need the "Big Picture". So, I'm sure I'll still have plenty of general, hypothetical type questions as well.

Its not worth posting my recent results since I only have about 2K hands since I've started trying to apply the advice from this thread, but so far it's going pretty well.

 

[WVHillbilly]

You can learn a lot from specific situations, especially the common ones.