My experience in going from 5NL to 10NL

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watchtowel

Visionary
Iv been doing pretty good at 5NL so I thought I would give 10NL a shot. I found it a massive difference in competition and quickly lost my buyin. Playing tricky with check-raise bluffs and 3-betting with air and stuff seems to work out for me in 5NL but the aggression in 10NL was way higher. Every tricky play I made they seemed to c through it and they only folded when I had a good hand.

Are the reading abilities much better at 10NL? What are the big differences I should watch out for?

I continued with another buyin as a last shot and 3 bet someone pf with 9 10s. Figured he had AA AK KK QQ or somethin so I knew hitting a good flop would pay off and I got 2 pair. So three bet and shove then I doubled my buyin so broke even again.

But I think im going back to 5NL lol because I cannot play tight for long periods of time and my loose play maybe isnt good enuf
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
I've never seen much difference between those two levels, both of which I still play at occasionally. It doesn't seem like you played very much at 10nl, which in turn suggests your experience and results may not be representative of the overall level of play. This is even more so for players who are on the loose side since they tend to have more variance.
 
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watchtowel

Visionary
Na I only played like 50 hands but it was just on first impressions. Took me a while do get comfortable on 5nl so maybe take a bit of time
 
PattyR

PattyR

Cardschat Elite
TBH i think 10 is just as soft as 5NL. There is really no difference is level of play just a difference in stacks and BBs so maybe you were playing with scared money??

stick to ABC poker and fold those suited connectors and you should profit no problem
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Try NOT 3betting T9s when you think your opponent has AK/QQ+ and I think you'll be much better off.
 
PattyR

PattyR

Cardschat Elite
because I cannot play tight for long periods of time and my loose play maybe isnt good enuf


why cant you play tight?

How many tables do you play at once??

I ask because when i first started poker and before i joined CC i only had one table up (with my entire BR cuz i didn't know BRM at the time but thats besides the point) and i would randomly raise stupid hands (like 910s) from EP and other dumb shit.

I found out that i just get bored..i mean who wants to sit at the table and not play lol

So i increased my tables so i got more hands and could wait and play tight ABC poker (fairly tight that is...i think im like 15/11 or something in HEM)

Now i 6...occasionally 9table 10NL
 
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watchtowel

Visionary
I can play tight, i do in a lot of tournis, I just get bored like you said lol. I don't 3-bet 10 9s out of habit though lol. Sometimes If I know someone has a decent hand like AKs KK or somethin il try n get a sneaky disguised hand and if i hit the flop it makes it harder for them to put my on a small hand.

It was also quite a small 3-bet so it wouldn't have been a big loss if i missed. But my lack of experience means I will stay with 5nl for a while first. I'm on $25 profit so c if I can keep that up for a while.
 
intiekkeko

intiekkeko

Rock Star
It's good you are using your brain and stepping back down if you did'nt feel comfortable

you can always have another crack at it as well and see if it was just a bad session

inti
 
Charade You Are

Charade You Are

you can call me Frost
In regular ring, I don't see much difference, but in Rush there seems to be a big difference in late position agressiveness.
 
B

Big_Rudy

Legend
I think everyone downplays this, but its been my experience that there is a HUGE difference between levels, even at the micros. Most people here seem to say that there is little to no difference, but that has not been my experience. In fact, I'm at 10nl now and am barely a break even player after having decent success at the lower levels.

It's to the point where I'm thinking of dropping back down even though I'm rolled for higher just because who wants to play break-even poker?

I wish I could pinpoint exactly what the difference is, but I just can't put my finger on it. Its been quite frustrating to start thinking that 10nl may be as high as I ever get in poker, just because I don't seem to have the ability to go higher.

Anyway, here are my stats for the different levels:

.02nl -- 15.8BB/100 over 19K sample size
.05nl -- 5.7BB/100 over 49K sample size
.10nl -- 1.2BB/100 over 60K sample size

So, clearly, at least for me, there has been a big difference between levels. The competition has clearly gotten better while my game has not kept pace. I only play on PS and only play FR so your milage may vary by site/game.
 
I

imwatcher

Visionary
I think everyone downplays this, but its been my experience that there is a HUGE difference between levels, even at the micros. Most people here seem to say that there is little to no difference, but that has not been my experience. In fact, I'm at 10nl now and am barely a break even player after having decent success at the lower levels.

It's to the point where I'm thinking of dropping back down even though I'm rolled for higher just because who wants to play break-even poker?

I wish I could pinpoint exactly what the difference is, but I just can't put my finger on it. Its been quite frustrating to start thinking that 10nl may be as high as I ever get in poker, just because I don't seem to have the ability to go higher.

Anyway, here are my stats for the different levels:

.02nl -- 15.8BB/100 over 19K sample size
.05nl -- 5.7BB/100 over 49K sample size
.10nl -- 1.2BB/100 over 60K sample size

So, clearly, at least for me, there has been a big difference between levels. The competition has clearly gotten better while my game has not kept pace. I only play on PS and only play FR so your milage may vary by site/game.

The 15.88 bb/100 at 2nl has to be running pretty good, even over 19k hands. Try reviewing your hands and see if you are playing any differently? Even subtle things like bet sizing, because personally I find .02/.05 quite strange blind levels to play with as the bet sizing feels different, I still am unsure why it isnt .02/.04.

At OP if you think that the raiser is on a monster then why the hell would you 3 bet? if he is that huge he will shove.... this is like saying oh im just 3bet setmining.... its crazy
 
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Big_Rudy

Legend
stick to ABC poker and fold those suited connectors and you should profit no problem

If only it really were that easy. I do play ABC poker, don't play garbage pre-flop, and play my good hands aggressively. I also play extremely tight, so its not a case of random spewiness playing sub-par hands. In fact, my HEM stats are usually in the 10/7 range. Probably TOO tight, I know, but if I widen my range, even a little, I quickly become a losing player overall.
 
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Big_Rudy

Legend
Try reviewing your hands and see if you are playing any differently? Even subtle things like bet sizing, because personally I find .02/.05 quite strange blind levels to play with as the bet sizing feels different, I still am unsure why it isnt .02/.04.

Yeah, I definately need to spend more time on reviewing my hands. It SEEMS like I'm playing a similar game to the one I've always played, but maybe not.

As to why it isn't .02/.04, I have no idea. I guess I never really thought about it that much.
 
eberetta1

eberetta1

Legend
Awards
7
Good to step back down and heal the wounds. When the bankroll gets replenished, try it again. Always seems like we hot a downcycle when we move up in limits.
 
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imwatcher

Visionary
Yeah, I definately need to spend more time on reviewing my hands. It SEEMS like I'm playing a similar game to the one I've always played, but maybe not.

As to why it isn't .02/.04, I have no idea. I guess I never really thought about it that much.

What is your AFQ? and position stats? On the button I think that you really should be playing at very least 17% of hands.. How often do you c-bet? I know one of my biggest leaks is that i c-bet too often without really thinking about it.. ABC poker is not just betting with good hands preflop then c-betting then giving up on turn if you havnt hit anything... I know when I first heard the expression that was all I thought it was but I have realised that it still has much to do with figuring out whether to bet or not depending on the flop and your hand and your opponents range.. I think the biggest thing is to not try and get tricky with your bluffs or your big hands.. Probably the most helpful piece of advice was when I was getting sweat and I got told that I should be check calling KK with an A on the board.. At the time I didnt think about it much but since then I have thought alot about it and (nearly always) this is the best play, compared to usually I would auto pilot and c-bet nearly every flop.

Basically, although it is ABC you still need to think about the reasoning behind WHY you are betting/folding.

Btw I am not a good player myself so my advice could be pretty horrible :D
 
F

fx20736

Legend
TBH i think 10 is just as soft as 5NL. There is really no difference is level of play just a difference in stacks and BBs so maybe you were playing with scared money??

stick to ABC poker and fold those suited connectors and you should profit no problem

QFT. I have been in a major downswing this week and one thing it did was force me to think seriously about my game. Although I got crushed by some epic coolers I also know that I had started to play a leaky, weaker game, calling too much and trying to play suited connectors. Truth is it is almost impossible to draw to straights or flushes profitably in NLHE if your opponents are smart enough to deny you Pot odds to do so or often even Implied Odds if they are short stacked.

If only it really were that easy. I do play ABC poker, don't play garbage pre-flop, and play my good hands aggressively. I also play extremely tight, so its not a case of random spewiness playing sub-par hands. In fact, my HEM stats are usually in the 10/7 range. Probably TOO tight, I know, but if I widen my range, even a little, I quickly become a losing player overall.

Not sure if 10/7 is necessarily too tight. I decided to stop playing speculative hands, stop set mining and try and play Raise/ Fold Poker in my last session. Now granted it was one session and I was seriously overdue to catch some winners but nevertheless:
 

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D

Deceitful_Frank

Rock Star
I think everyone downplays this, but its been my experience that there is a HUGE difference between levels, even at the micros. Most people here seem to say that there is little to no difference, but that has not been my experience. In fact, I'm at 10nl now and am barely a break even player after having decent success at the lower levels.

It's to the point where I'm thinking of dropping back down even though I'm rolled for higher just because who wants to play break-even poker?

I wish I could pinpoint exactly what the difference is, but I just can't put my finger on it. Its been quite frustrating to start thinking that 10nl may be as high as I ever get in poker, just because I don't seem to have the ability to go higher.

Anyway, here are my stats for the different levels:

.02nl -- 15.8BB/100 over 19K sample size
.05nl -- 5.7BB/100 over 49K sample size
.10nl -- 1.2BB/100 over 60K sample size

So, clearly, at least for me, there has been a big difference between levels. The competition has clearly gotten better while my game has not kept pace. I only play on PS and only play FR so your milage may vary by site/game.

+1000!

There has to be a difference, else there wouldnt be anyone actually playing 2NL and 5NL as they would all be winning at 10NL wouldn't they?

Then all the worse players at 10NL would drop down to 5NL where they could find profit and so on. Is this like some reverse paradox?

Like I said before. The standard of play is generally a bit better but I think that this, combined with the rake we pay really sorts the wheat from the chaff.

You only really have meaningful samples at 5NL and 10NL and I would even say your 5NL numbers at 5.7 still need to converge a little. Go on to PTR and try to find a >100,000 hand sample over 5BB/100. I spent over a year kidding myself that 10BB/100 was achievable long term.

IMO you need to drop back down to 5NL. This is where you are makng a good profit for yourself (not just PS) Where you are confident in your game. Try to find another half dozen leaks, get them sorted and then take another shot at 10NL

Think we are both in a similar place owning 5NL but having trouble with 10. PM if you wanna pick my brain.
 
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Big_Rudy

Legend
What is your AFQ? and position stats? On the button I think that you really should be playing at very least 17% of hands.. How often do you c-bet?

Sorry for not posting for a couple of days. Been busy with the holidays and all. I'm pretty new here to the forums, but as soon as I figure out how to post screenshots of my HEM stats I'll do so.

Probably the most helpful piece of advice was when I was getting sweat and I got told that I should be check calling KK with an A on the board.. At the time I didnt think about it much but since then I have thought alot about it and (nearly always) this is the best play, compared to usually I would auto pilot and c-bet nearly every flop.

Yeah, I recently received this advice also. I used to just auto C-bet as well. Been just checking behind recently. Still haven't had enough hands with this new strategy to see if its more profitable or not than the CBet. I wonder though, if you are checking behind with K-K v. flopped Ace, are you doing this because so many people play any Ace, or just because its an overcard? In other words, if you had Q-Q, raised, and were flatted pre, if the flop came with a K, are you still checking behind? Or are you usually Cbetting this?
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
+1000!

There has to be a difference, else there wouldnt be anyone actually playing 2NL and 5NL as they would all be winning at 10NL wouldn't they?

Then all the worse players at 10NL would drop down to 5NL where they could find profit and so on. Is this like some reverse paradox?

This is flawed logic. There are VERY bad players at every level. I've played many many 90+ vpip players at 100nl and I know they exist at much higher limits as well. Bad players don't practice BRM. They're all going to go broke eventually, some will do it slowly at 2nl and others will do it in 1 hand at 400nl. The stakes people play is much more a function of BR and how much they are comfortable losing than it is skill.

Yes there is probably a slight difference is the quality of the regs between levels but you're not out to make lots of money playing regs anyway. And at micro/low stakes there are so many players that you should be able to find lots of great tables with at least a couple of VERY bad players.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Yeah, I recently received this advice also. I used to just auto C-bet as well. Been just checking behind recently. Still haven't had enough hands with this new strategy to see if its more profitable or not than the CBet. I wonder though, if you are checking behind with K-K v. flopped Ace, are you doing this because so many people play any Ace, or just because its an overcard? In other words, if you had Q-Q, raised, and were flatted pre, if the flop came with a K, are you still checking behind? Or are you usually Cbetting this?

Still checking behind with QQ on K high boards. There does come a point though where we can just cbet. Say we raise 99 from the CO and the BB flats, I'll cbet an Ace high board against a lot of villains because if we check behind there are a lot of overcards that are going to make calling the turn/river a lot less profitable.
 
I

imwatcher

Visionary
Sorry for not posting for a couple of days. Been busy with the holidays and all. I'm pretty new here to the forums, but as soon as I figure out how to post screenshots of my HEM stats I'll do so.



Yeah, I recently received this advice also. I used to just auto C-bet as well. Been just checking behind recently. Still haven't had enough hands with this new strategy to see if its more profitable or not than the CBet. I wonder though, if you are checking behind with K-K v. flopped Ace, are you doing this because so many people play any Ace, or just because its an overcard? In other words, if you had Q-Q, raised, and were flatted pre, if the flop came with a K, are you still checking behind? Or are you usually Cbetting this?

You can attach in advance reply the paperclip symbol. I still think you need to c-bet sometimes but I used to c-bet about 90%+ whereas now I c-bet around 60% of the time.
 
B

Big_Rudy

Legend
Ok, so here is my first attempt at posting my stats, pathetic as they are….



Hope this works, ‘cause I really have no idea what I’m doing. In poker, or in posting things like this apparently. Anyway, if you have any suggestions/advice/criticisms/etc. I’d be glad to hear them. Currently I’m about 1 more bad session from giving up this game entirely and putting my time to better use. I used to win at .02 and .05nl, but after playing the game for about a year and doing a little bit of studying/reading/watching videos/etc, I still can’t even beat .10nl. So, short of giving up the game, what can I do to show some improvement?
 

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WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Why are you looser from the worse position at the table than you are from all other positions????
 
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Big_Rudy

Legend
Yes there is probably a slight difference is the quality of the regs between levels but you're not out to make lots of money playing regs anyway. And at micro/low stakes there are so many players that you should be able to find lots of great tables with at least a couple of VERY bad players.

Ummm...no. At least not for me. In addition to all the other skills that I lack, I apparently suck at table selection. Care to share your process?

Frequently I'll sit at a table that listed in the lobby as running about 30% vpip for the table (or as high as I can find without 10 other players already waiting to join) and quickly find that its running (according to HEM), more like 12/10 - 17/15 vpip/pfr for the table. And this is just at .10nl.

So, where are all these great tables, and why can't I find them? Is my criteria for joining tables flawed, or are the typical players at PS really all that TAG at only .10nl? I guess what I'm asking is what defines a great table for you? What do you look for in the lobby? What do you look for once you're seated and have seen just a few hands so that stats start to pop-up in you HUD?
 
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Big_Rudy

Legend
Why are you looser from the worse position at the table than you are from all other positions????

Yeah, I know that stat pops out at me too. I think frequently I feel like I'm "priced-in" by having several limpers or an early small raiser and several callers before the action gets to me. In my mind, (probably flawed:eek: ), if the pot is laying me like 4 or 5 to 1 on a call, I'll usually make the call. I think that's going to be the first thing I try to adjust. Still, I'm NOT completing 80% of the time there. What is a reasonable % for completing from the SB?
 
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