Ever wondered what "M" is...

[dj11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-ratio

or google poker 'M'

Lazy mans way to calculate M... Catch the pot size the instant blinds and ante's are posted, and divide that into your stack size.

Keep in mind that the M theory is unproven. While I'll agree the general principles are sound, the actions suggested in HOH are a bit overreactions. My take on it is that you need to increase your awareness of the opportunities available to you, but not do stupid stuff like shove ATC JUST because your 'M' is low.

 

[naruto_miu]

Just Curious, How to determine when to shove/fold...I mean, here's my question just recently comprehended this M theory thing, Now, If Lets say you have 3400Chips, but the Blinds are at 100/200 with an ante of 25, then your M factor is actually around 6-6.5 Correct? But you have enough blinds to chip ratio is actually different correct? So Is it really a profitable move to shove with so many chips to gain so little?

 

[jernest]

Now, If Lets say you have 3400Chips, but the Blinds are at 100/200 with an ante of 25, then your M factor is actually around 6-6.5 Correct?

Your M in this situation will be any where from 9+ (2 or 3 handed) to 6.5 (full table of 9) all of which are < 10 you do have more than 10BB true - but this is where you are reaching a danger zone, playing any significant pots at this point will probably pot committ you or cripple you in the process, in this zone you really need to pick your spots and push very aggressively / shove depending on the situation.

just remember what will your M (or BB) bet at if you raise 3xBB/fold to any subsequent action - if your stack can't take it - then you will have to either not raise there or shove.

Raise/fold at this point M of 6 - 7 is just not what you are looking to do... you may not need to shove pre - but recognize you may have to shove the flop - or the very next hand you choose to play.

M basically represents the number of orbits that you can survive folding every hand you get. Also when thinking of your M - keep in mind that rising blinds and antes will change your M drastically. if your 100/200/25a is raising in 2 minutes or less - do you really have an m of 6.5?

short answer.... No. in fact as soon as your blinds raise to 200/400/25a your M is gonna plummet to 5ish and your BB will drop to 8.5.

5 orbits and you have blinded out... the worst way to lose IMO.

So it is up to you if you need to push/fold.... but most will start to agree that time is running short for you.

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

Just Curious, How to determine when to shove/fold...I mean, here's my question just recently comprehended this M theory thing, Now, If Lets say you have 3400Chips, but the Blinds are at 100/200 with an ante of 25, then your M factor is actually around 6-6.5 Correct? But you have enough blinds to chip ratio is actually different correct? So Is it really a profitable move to shove with so many chips to gain so little?

At this stage, its not as important to shove as to blind steal, but shoving with premiums to actually achieve a double up.

Also gaining, 525 onto a 3400 stack with a steal, is alot more significant than you may think. Its not only an extra orbit, but gives your stack more respect against other bigger stacks, and a better double up potential.

 

[naruto_miu]

At this stage, its not as important to shove as to blind steal, but shoving with premiums to actually achieve a double up.

Also gaining, 525 onto a 3400 stack with a steal, is alot more significant than you may think. Its not only an extra orbit, but gives your stack more respect against other bigger stacks, and a better double up potential.

So, Does the "M" Plummet later in the game as the antes/blinds progress or what? Sry, cuz I'm seriously trying to figure out the best way to use the "M" factor....I mean, In that Scenario above, A shove with ATC, is'nt really Improtant as apposed to waiting for Premos to DU correct? So Going with this type of Mentallity then we should be waiting for Good hands correct, even though that would mean, our "M" factor would be plummitting correct? Plz explain more on it, or is my thinking totally wrong?

 

[jernest]

So, Does the "M" Plummet later in the game as the antes/blinds progress or what? Sry, cuz I'm seriously trying to figure out the best way to use the "M" factor....I mean, In that Scenario above, A shove with ATC, is'nt really Improtant as apposed to waiting for Premos to DU correct? So Going with this type of Mentallity then we should be waiting for Good Hands correct, even though that would mean, our "M" factor would be plummitting correct? Plz explain more on it, or is my thinking totally wrong?

Well while you are at 15M you should not b shoving ATC, but in position you should be blind stealing ATC. And shoving for doublingwhen you have premium pairs especially. But you are doing this because the blinds are raising causing a stagnant stack to lose M value even while not losing chips. your future M needs to be considered... but you should not be especially reckless.

Use good position to steal with your crap hands but with standard raises. Be prpared to gtfo of the pot if A. you are 3-bet, called but dont catch anything and are raised. If you catch lucky, stack your villain; but to reitirate you need to GTFO if the situation is not ideal... not to say you cant bluff villain off, but be careful. I personnally do not like to showdown my crap too very often, but if the situation is right take it.

Just realize if you attempt to steal a pot and don't win it outright your M will be lower and you need to adjust your play for this happenstance. As your chips or M decrease, you need to become more aggressive, and your prime choices may start to dwindle and you become less and less of a threat to your opposition.

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

jernest is pwning my thread

You seem to be mainly foccusing on M when thinking about blind steals? or so its coming accross. M is more important when considering what your play should be, with your stack size. Like say you have AA UTG and your "M" is 20 its telling you not to shove but to standard raise, but say your UTG with AA and your "M" is 5, you should open shove....you get me?

You can consider it when thinking about blind steals, with the mentality of, does my "M" allow me to shove ATC or is my stack not threatening enough to force folds.

But IMO you should never shove literally ATC wit any stack, you atleast need something just incase lol. Just my 2 cents though depends how loose or tight you are.

Im not sure if i have answered what you asked, because your post slightly confused me lmao, so if there is anything else, ask away

 

[naruto_miu]

jernest is pwning my thread

You seem to be mainly foccusing on M when thinking about blind steals? or so its coming accross. M is more important when considering what your play should be, with your stack size. Like say you have AA UTG and your "M" is 20 its telling you not to shove but to standard raise, but say your UTG with AA and your "M" is 5, you should open shove....you get me?

You can consider it when thinking about blind steals, with the mentality of, does my "M" allow me to shove ATC or is my stack not threatening enough to force folds.

But IMO you should never shove literally ATC wit any stack, you atleast need something just incase lol. Just my 2 cents though depends how loose or tight you are.

Im not sure if i have answered what you asked, because your post slightly confused me lmao, so if there is anything else, ask away

\

Ok so I think I finally follow you...Tell me if this about sums it up..."M" is more or less a path which dicatates the path one should take in a poker game, Correct? Like say your M factor is at 20+ one does'nt neccesarily need to make moves correct, he/she can afford to wait it out, Correct? While if your M is between say 10-15, one does'nt need to make moves either but at the same time needs to pick ones spots, correct? and so-forth and so on, correct?

 

[dj11]

Low 'M' problems relate to FE (fold equity) and FE is the ability of your bet being enough discouragement for your villains to fold. So with small 'M's your bets either have to be backed with superior cards, or a decent FE.

As your 'M' drops, your villains will ignore your FE, and there is a zone where your FE just disappears. That is between Harrington's orange (danger) zone and his RED (hail Mary)zone.

HoH, and the general theory of 'M' suggests you are better off shoving with an 'M' of 8 than waiting till your 'M' is 3 regardless of your cards.

'M' is also a tourney only concept. It has little if any relevance in ring games (you can rebuy) where it changes to FE. In tourneys 'M' is a measurement of tourney life, or health.

 

[jernest]

jernest is pwning my thread

You seem to be mainly foccusing on M when thinking about blind steals? or so its coming accross. M is more important when considering what your play should be, with your stack size. Like say you have AA UTG and your "M" is 20 its telling you not to shove but to standard raise, but say your UTG with AA and your "M" is 5, you should open shove....you get me?

You can consider it when thinking about blind steals, with the mentality of, does my "M" allow me to shove ATC or is my stack not threatening enough to force folds.

But IMO you should never shove literally ATC wit any stack, you atleast need something just incase lol. Just my 2 cents though depends how loose or tight you are.

Im not sure if i have answered what you asked, because your post slightly confused me lmao, so if there is anything else, ask away

Yeah sorry, was not trying to take over but when nuruto mentioned: "I mean, In that Scenario above, A shove with ATC, is'nt really Improtant as apposed to waiting for Premos to DU correct?" I was trying to show that he was not at a point where he needs to shove ATC, but that his M will diminish given rising blinds and continual antes. I think the worst thing you can do is fold away waiting for premos only... especially in a turbo... and I think all advice FTP has been spot on... and this was/is a great threap idea... I just felt that Naruto may have felt that shoving ATC was a correct play.

So sorry again, I was trying to help... and may have made things harder to understand where I was trying to clarify.

And thanks for the "M" post, FTP.. good stuff!

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

Dude, you can post any advice you want, im no pro, this thread wasnt about me it was about helping others, and if anyone else wants to give their insights, they can go ahead.

Thanks

FTP

 

[fletchdad]

nice post. M is becoming more and more relevant in my tournament play. I just want to make a quick observation about stack sizes, as it was mentioned. For me, the relevance of stack size would not be to average stack but to BB, I also read something about this recently, cant remember where. But I digress, thanks for the info!! And I am just starting Harrington on Hold em 1, which should open a few more doors.

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

nice post. M is becoming more and more relevant in my tournament play. I just want to make a quick observation about stack sizes, as it was mentioned. For me, the relevance of stack size would not be to average stack but to BB, I also read something about this recently, cant remember where. But I digress, thanks for the info!! And I am just starting Harrington on Hold em 1, which should open a few more doors.

Just being aware of your "M" in play, can be a great indicator.

Thanks for your comments

FTP

 

[kmixer]

Well I must say, Thank You FTP (Seriously), Cuz I have never been able to comprehend this "M" Subject (Hence-forth, Why I suck Like ass), And I swear you broke it down so Relatively easy to understand, and very well Articulated...Now I do have 1 question, and that is, Even though the formula is quite simple to do, it still requires time correct? So there-fore I was wondering do you by any chance know of any Free "M" Calculators?

Try the QMcalculator. It is from Turtleknife (Marty Smith) and it is very free. All you have to do is sign into his mailing list which gives you lots more free stuff

Enjoy!

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

Try the QMcalculator. It is from Turtleknife (Marty Smith) and it is very free. All you have to do is sign into his mailing list which gives you lots more free stuff

Enjoy!

That guy makes loads of videos on Youtube, thanks for the calculator, im not quite there doing it quick enough in my head

 

[drgilbert4]

That guy makes loads of videos on Youtube, thanks for the calculator, im not quite there doing it quick enough in my head

I really like the M method vs the number of big blinds for the simple reason that "M" takes into consideration the antes as well as the blinds. This is an excellent thread.

Marty Smith is incredibly funny. He's not a bad tourney player either.

 

[Tylerbuhck]

thanks for explaining "M" didn't really know what it was till now

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

Glad i could help you guys

 

[tomh7795]

I know the m concept but I don't think it's important. Only useful in mtt when antes start I feel. I know 15 m is way to much to shove.