Are draws worth calling?

killing_random

killing_random

Rock Star
I mean, is <<straight & flush draws from a flop>>'s showdown value plus on distance?
Should you call even first standard 50% c-bet?

From what I can tell:
1. You defenetly would make more profit playing against draws with top pair+. It's simple 2/3 win on showdown.
2. Any basic level reg immediately stop paying you any extra with worse hands, once your draw is completed.
3. Even straight & flush occasionally? lose. For example recently I had five tournaments lose streak, 4 of 5 I busted with completed flushes and one straight.
4. With short effective stack you wouldn't win enough chips.
5. OOP is nightmare.

In defence I would say that multiway pot can be very profitable. Also if a pot rather small comparing to your stack, you could easily call 50% c-bet.

Actually that will be mine main question - What the biggest pot to stack ratio you could start calling flop's 50% c-bet with?
 
E

eetenor

Legend
Awards
1
I mean, is <<straight & flush draws from a flop>>'s showdown value plus on distance?
Should you call even first standard 50% c-bet?

From what I can tell:
1. You defenetly would make more profit playing against draws with top pair+. It's simple 2/3 win on showdown.
2. Any basic level reg immediately stop paying you any extra with worse hands, once your draw is completed.
3. Even straight & flush occasionally? lose. For example recently I had five tournaments lose streak, 4 of 5 I busted with completed flushes and one straight.
4. With short effective stack you wouldn't win enough chips.
5. OOP is nightmare.

In defence I would say that multiway pot can be very profitable. Also if a pot rather small comparing to your stack, you could easily call 50% c-bet.

Actually that will be mine main question - What the biggest pot to stack ratio you could start calling flop's 50% c-bet with?


Thank you for posting.

Cards chat has an odds calculator, it is very helpful to use for these types of questions.
We can learn what type of draws are best to continue with.

For example
V has KhKc we have As2s- flop is Js7s2h V bets 50% pot that means we need 33% equity in our hand to call profitably.

We have 51.62% this may not be a call but a check raise get it in spot.
V seldom has a set when they bet 50% pot on this flop and we can have 77 22 when we check raise so we get fold equity as well.

There are many more situations where board texture, our range interaction and V tendencies adds fold equity to our decision to continue with a draw. A check raise is not the only option either. We can also call flop lead turn 2x pot river as a bluff if the turn card interacts well with the board and our range.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
Last edited:
I

itsallgoodie

Rising Star
Yeah, I think you have to view each situation uniquely, for me I do it by studying the opponents playing style and then adding that range on phone Apps like poker odds scanner (https://apps.apple.com/by/app/poker-odds-scanner/id1556003395), to see the real odds against my opponents and then I know from there if it's worth to make a call.
The benefit from the calculator is that you can use it in realtime and that it will take your opponents entire range into account as opposed to only a specific hand(since you likely won't know exactly what your opponent has).
 
P

paulo pereira

Rising Star
reply

hello,my name is Paulo
I mean i liked the theme of the post:angel::smile:
 
killing_random

killing_random

Rock Star
Yeah, I think you have to view each situation uniquely...
Well, I would like to know that pot to stack ratio as the general benchmark to apply on a fly, without calculating anything uniquely...

Standard 8-9 outs to top flush or straight (we believe that our draw will be top nuts when complited), standard 50% c-bet.
With what pot to stack ratio with this terms calling one street is plus on distance.
C'mon, someone has to know it already, I don't wanna calculate it myself :frown:

hello,my name is Paulo
I mean i liked the theme of the post:angel::smile:
You forget to rate this thread with five stars ;)
 
VikyGia

VikyGia

Rock Star
Awards
1
Opinion

The straight flush is very unlikely to actually come out is 5/52, but for the royal flush cards to be even less than 5%, however it also influences whether the player enters looking for that winning hand or not, the poker greatly influences the decisions that each one can make when playing.
 
P

purplerain

Rising Star
It depends. There are a lot of different players out there but you have to adjust your game to those on the table. I mean of course there is some kind of rule you can apply but there is a lot of variances in players playstyles you have to think of.
 
VikyGia

VikyGia

Rock Star
Awards
1
Opinion

The straight is 5 consecutive cards and the flush is 5 cards of the same suit, however I consider that there are more outs with a flush than with a straight, since they are unique cards, and flush there are many cards of that suit, and any one works.
 
M

Mahdi

Rock Star
Why would you call it when you can raise it? You have a ton of equity there and will generate a lot of folds agains made hands that are gonna beat you by the river if you missed
 
johnnylawford

johnnylawford

Rock Star
Awards
2
I mean, is <<straight & flush draws from a flop>>'s showdown value plus on distance?
Should you call even first standard 50% c-bet?

From what I can tell:
1. You defenetly would make more profit playing against draws with top pair+. It's simple 2/3 win on showdown.
2. Any basic level reg immediately stop paying you any extra with worse hands, once your draw is completed.
3. Even straight & flush occasionally? lose. For example recently I had five tournaments lose streak, 4 of 5 I busted with completed flushes and one straight.
4. With short effective stack you wouldn't win enough chips.
5. OOP is nightmare.

In defence I would say that multiway pot can be very profitable. Also if a pot rather small comparing to your stack, you could easily call 50% c-bet.

Actually that will be mine main question - What the biggest pot to stack ratio you could start calling flop's 50% c-bet with?


You should check out the 30-day course under the 'poker strategy' tab, particularly "Day 10 - The Key to Playing Draws". The whole course talks about all of the issues you brought up, but day 10 will give you the cliff notes.

https://www.cardschat.com/become-a-winning-poker-player/day-10/
 
henriquemaduro

henriquemaduro

Visionary
I mean, is <<straight & flush draws from a flop>>'s showdown value plus on distance?
Should you call even first standard 50% c-bet?

From what I can tell:
1. You defenetly would make more profit playing against draws with top pair+. It's simple 2/3 win on showdown.
2. Any basic level reg immediately stop paying you any extra with worse hands, once your draw is completed.
3. Even straight & flush occasionally? lose. For example recently I had five tournaments lose streak, 4 of 5 I busted with completed flushes and one straight.
4. With short effective stack you wouldn't win enough chips.
5. OOP is nightmare.

In defence I would say that multiway pot can be very profitable. Also if a pot rather small comparing to your stack, you could easily call 50% c-bet.

Actually that will be mine main question - What the biggest pot to stack ratio you could start calling flop's 50% c-bet with?

Count your outs, do the pot odds math, then compare to know if you are betting profitable or not
 
R

RDHartsoe

Rock Star
I believe that flush draws are worth calling. I do most times. I sometimes call with a straight draw but I am more inclined to fold there.
 
L

LetterRip

Rock Star
Awards
2
You should call draws when you have proper pot odds or in the case of tournaments - tournament odds.

Pot odds are relatively straight forward.


You have a flush draw - on the flop, and villain shoves all in. Amount to call/(pot + amount to call) - give you the percentage equity you need. If villain shoves a pot sized bet than you need 1/(1+1) = 50% equity. A flush draw has 9 outs on the flop versus top pair, two pair, and sets - though 1 or more of those outs may be tainted. Using the rule of 4 and 2 - 4 * 9 = 36% equity; and you need 50% equity to call - you should fold unless you think that villain is shoving as a bluff/semibluff enough to make the call correct (if you have the NFD, and villain will shove non NFD and has a lot of FD in his range, than it can easily be correct to call).


For a AI 1/2 pot bet, .5/(1+.5) = 33%. Again 9 outs gives us 36% equity and an easy call especially if villain shoves worse flush draws that we might be dominating.

If villain isn't shoving all in, but has money behind, then we need implied odds and an understanding of villains betting and calling behavior. Instead of calling his 1/2 pot bet perhaps we should shove to fold out his hand if he will only call a shove with two pair+ - this is known as fold equity and can be much more important than your hand equity. Or if villain is a calling station and never folds we use implied odds.

Tournament odds are a bit more sophisticated and depends on distance from the money/bubble - relative stack size, etc. If villain can easily knock you out of the tournament and you are on the bubble, than you might need drastically better odds to call than a normal pot odds calculation provides.
 
K

kidpoker111

Rising Star
Yea I agree that flush draw for example is worth calling they are giving you a lot of options but it depends on situation of course
 
1

1nsomn1a

Visionary
It's just that the call gives out too much information, isn't it better to try to hide your draw, especially since they won't pay you after closing.
 
P

purplerain

Rising Star
I think there are even a lot of situations where beting is better option
 
S

snitcheroo

Enthusiast
Thank you for posting.

Cards chat has an odds calculator, it is very helpful to use for these types of questions.
We can learn what type of draws are best to continue with.

For example
V has KhKc we have As2s- flop is Js7s2h V bets 50% pot that means we need 33% equity in our hand to call profitably.

We have 51.62% this may not be a call but a check raise get it in spot.
V seldom has a set when they bet 50% pot on this flop and we can have 77 22 when we check raise so we get fold equity as well.

There are many more situations where board texture, our range interaction and V tendencies adds fold equity to our decision to continue with a draw. A check raise is not the only option either. We can also call flop lead turn 2x pot river as a bluff if the turn card interacts well with the board and our range.

Hope this helps
:):)



How dependable is the odds calculator on sites with "random" dealing? I mean mire often then not the river hits every time. Seems to me they can't be trustworthy. Have you used it? And curious on your take of it.
 
E

eetenor

Legend
Awards
1
How dependable is the odds calculator on sites with "random" dealing? I mean mire often then not the river hits every time. Seems to me they can't be trustworthy. Have you used it? And curious on your take of it.



Thank you for posting

The odds calculator is very good for finding the spots where we do not know if we should raise or call but the odds suggest one play is better than the other.

We can only learn the math of playing then decide where to apply that math- all other factors are beyond our control.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
S

snitcheroo

Enthusiast
Thank you for posting

The odds calculator is very good for finding the spots where we do not know if we should raise or call but the odds suggest one play is better than the other.

We can only learn the math of playing then decide where to apply that math- all other factors are beyond our control.

Hope this helps
:):)


Yes it does help, Thank you!! I love the game but get so frustrated with some crazy calls.. I have started to play different then I have always played only because I feel the situation warrants it on some sites lol
 
I

itsallgoodie

Rising Star
Thank you for posting

The odds calculator is very good for finding the spots where we do not know if we should raise or call but the odds suggest one play is better than the other.

We can only learn the math of playing then decide where to apply that math- all other factors are beyond our control.

Hope this helps
:):)

Nicely said! You can decide not to use them but they can definitely be helpful
 
Top