Calling minimum bets

[CistaCista]

I have a principle that I always call minimum bets if I have a draw for a made hand. So for instance if the pot is $0.06 and someone bets 0.02 I call if I have a straight draw. If you calculate pot odds then I shouldn't do it

But I am thinking wtf t's minimum bet and I may get the guy to put in more iskies. I only loose 0.02.

Is this stupid? It doesn't happen more than once every 5th hand or so. Is there anyone who stricly steers away from these minimum calls?

 

[ChuckTs]

https://www.cardschat.com/poker-odds-pot-odds-implied-odds.php

 

[WVHillbilly]

When you call, no matter what the bet size, you have one way to win, by making the best hand.

If you take that same drawing hand, str8 draw / flush draw doesn't matter, and raise with it you've given yourself another way to win because your opponent might now fold. You also give yourself the chance to win a much larger pot on later streets if your bet gets called and you either hit OR you decide to bluff again.

Calling min bets is probably +EV because you'll generally get another bet later on when you hit.

Raising min bets is certainly +EV and much more so than calling because you're giving yourself another way to win the hand and you'll win bigger pots overall.

 

[flytyerjsb]

Well, I learned something here. I never thought about raising to give myself another way to win the hand but after reading what WVHillbilly wrote, it makes sense to me.

I am going to have to study all of this in more detail because I seem to be learning something new several times a week here.

This has really given me something to think about and try in the near future.

Thanks.:beer:

 

[LizzieO]

When you call, no matter what the bet size, you have one way to win, by making the best hand.

If you take that same drawing hand, str8 draw / flush draw doesn't matter, and raise with it you've given yourself another way to win because your opponent might now fold. You also give yourself the chance to win a much larger pot on later streets if your bet gets called and you either hit OR you decide to bluff again.

Calling min bets is probably +EV because you'll generally get another bet later on when you hit.

Raising min bets is certainly +EV and much more so than calling because you're giving yourself another way to win the hand and you'll win bigger pots overall.

I agree with you, the raise is the way to go, I have found that being agressive can work. Since I usually play a very tight game, when I raise it gives some pause to the other players who are paying attention, and to those who are not, then the raise may cause the other player to fold, or it could be the seed for the big win. But I only do it with good outs for a top hand, for example a draw that can give me a straight or a flush.

 

[CistaCista]

If you take that same drawing hand, str8 draw / flush draw doesn't matter, and raise with it you've given yourself another way to win because your opponent might now fold.

Ok, but I am playing 2NL. The philosophy here (that I am following) is never to make a bluff like that or a c-bet if you missed the flop, because donks at 2NL they don't fold.

But I will keep the raise idea in mind and maybe try it out, definitely will try it if I move up in levels.

 

[CistaCista]

it gives some pause to the other players who are paying attention

Yeah again, it is good advise but on my level the opposition doesn't pay attention to anything at least for now I am playing very simple TAG - only raising when I have a hand. And it works well.

 

[acky100]

Ive never thought of that either (what WV said) but its opened my eyes, so raising on draws is more EV+? and how much should i be reraising here when i decide to try this? sounds like something that could possibly help my game thanks

 

[ChuckTs]

I got lazy with my response obv, but I just want to second everything that WVH said, word for word. Flatting the minbets is almost definitely +EV since we don't need villain to pay us off for that much later in a hand (ie implied odds, hence my posting the article about it) for the play to be profitable. WVH explained pretty well why raising is far superior though, don't really have to add anything there.

Ok, but I am playing 2NL. The philosophy here (that I am following) is never to make a bluff like that or a c-bet if you missed the flop, because donks at 2NL they don't fold.

But I will keep the raise idea in mind and maybe try it out, definitely will try it if I move up in levels.

Pot equity + fold equity = aggression

We have pot equity in that we have outs to improve to the best hand. So even if villain calls, we still have those times where we improve to the best hand, now have a bigger pot to value bet into, and can commit villain/ourselves more easily.

The more equity we have in a pot, the less fold equity we need to make a bet profitable.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Yeah again, it is good advise but on my level the opposition doesn't pay attention to anything at least for now I am playing very simple TAG - only raising when I have a hand. And it works well.

Good, aggressive poker works at all levels. Yeah at 2nl you'll have less fold equity (FE) overall but when you have big drawing hands you don't really need very much FE to make raising better than calling. Also at 2nl your opponents will be willing to play bigger pots with lesser draws which is a HUGE advantage you won't get as often as you move up.

Calling or raising depends on stack sizes and ranges and how often they do fold and position and all those things that go into all poker decisions but as a general rule raising those small bets with your big draws is going to make you more money than calling will.

So I'll put it in the terms you'll normally see posted on forums like this:
raising >>> calling >>>>>>>>>>> folding.

 

[thetaxman1]

I don't see a mention of Position in this post. I don't particularly like the Idea of Raising a Draw out of Position. I will do that In good position but if its in early or middle position then calling or folding is best in my opinion. The other issue with playing a draw is how many callers because of the multiplying effect and again position because there is allways a Moose who will raise with anything in position against multiple callers to create dead money in the pot. I like being on a Moose in position but not a donkey caller.

 

[rllngn]

If I am in the blinds and a person min raises I call 99 percent of the time, depending on the blinds and my chip stack. I don't use this move often as I don't see the effectiveness in it, to me that person is asking for trouble. If you are min raising to get action the action a person receives might not work out to their advantage.

 

[cjatud2012]

Yeah again, it is good advise but on my level the opposition doesn't pay attention to anything at least for now I am playing very simple TAG - only raising when I have a hand. And it works well.

I am making many generalizations when I say this, but you are probably not playing TAG. TAG isn't about playing solid hands pre-flop, in fact there are many situations where many TAG's will raise very wide pre-flop. Playing a TAG strategy has less to do with your hand selection and more to do with positional awareness, opponent awareness, value-betting, aggressive but not spewy post-flop play, and much much more. If you are not c-betting because you fear you might be called, you are not a TAG player. Also, if you are not stealing wide enough from the button when your opponents in the blinds are very tight, that is not playing TAG. Both of those describe tight-passive play.

sorry for the derail, I know this thread is about min-bets, but I feel that this needed to be said.

 

[thebigdawg]

I agree with WV, if your on a up-down straight draw or a flush draw and no one has raised then you should go ahead. If they fold you already get the pot, if they call and you hit your draw you will be able to take down a bigger pot.

 

[CistaCista]

Playing a TAG strategy has less to do with your hand selection and more to do with positional awareness, opponent awareness, value-betting, aggressive but not spewy post-flop play, and much much more. If you are not c-betting because you fear you might be called, you are not a TAG player. Also, if you are not stealing wide enough from the button when your opponents in the blinds are very tight, that is not playing TAG. Both of those describe tight-passive play.

I feel I should defend myself then, since I don't think I have said all that about my play which you imply.

In fact I play quite different ranges in early, middle and late position. I take notes on all opponents and play them accordingly. I try to make good value bets. From the button I steal the blinds with a lot of hands hand down to 22 and any suited hand. From hijack(?) position I try to steal sometimes with hands like Q10 or 66.

However, I have been told that c-betting with nothing is bad for you on 2NL unless you know the opposition well. Almost the only time I do a c-bet bluff is when I am OOP and HU, but I am considering doing it in a bit more situations. I will probably start doing it HU and in position as well, since a check often results in the villain making a big (bluff bet) on the turn and me folding.

 

[forsakenone]

when they min bet, if its only me and the guy who min bets, i reraise, the min bet tells me he doesn't want me to bet, so i bet, because he probably is on a draw, 3rd pair or something he is scared of. sometimes they do this with monsters, but most of the time they will fold if you reraise.

 

[intiekkeko]

It is not always bad to call a min bet when you have a good draw and good implied odds

however I would only use this strategy in ring games as I imagine it could have quite an impact on your stack in the later levels of a tourney

I like the raise idea too as altho at that level people are'nt paying much attention you may win if the guy who bets minimum was just c-betting and puts you on a stronger hand

inti

 

[WhiteYoke]

I don't see a mention of Position in this post. I don't particularly like the Idea of Raising a Draw out of Position.

Let me tell you why betting out of position with an open ended straight or flush draw is actually a good idea. It's called semi-bluffing.

When you are first to act and you check and your opponent bets a small amount you are most likely going to call with a draw like this anyway. So instead you bet first. By betting instead of checking you represent a stronger hand and like WVHillbilly already pointed out now you have two ways of winning instead of one. Your opponent might fold or you might make your draw and win a big pot.

 

[ben_rhyno]

I am making many generalizations when I say this, but you are probably not playing TAG. TAG isn't about playing solid hands pre-flop, in fact there are many situations where many TAG's will raise very wide pre-flop. Playing a TAG strategy has less to do with your hand selection and more to do with positional awareness, opponent awareness, value-betting, aggressive but not spewy post-flop play, and much much more. If you are not c-betting because you fear you might be called, you are not a TAG player. Also, if you are not stealing wide enough from the button when your opponents in the blinds are very tight, that is not playing TAG. Both of those describe tight-passive play.

sorry for the derail, I know this thread is about min-bets, but I feel that this needed to be said.

+1 This is an excellent point

 

[ben_rhyno]

Let me tell you why betting out of position with an open ended straight or flush draw is actually a good idea. It's called semi-bluffing.

When you are first to act and you check and your opponent bets a small amount you are most likely going to call with a draw like this anyway. So instead you bet first. By betting instead of checking you represent a stronger hand and like WVHillbilly already pointed out now you have two ways of winning instead of one. Your opponent might fold or you might make your draw and win a big pot.

And if opponent reraises?
Imo, check-calling is also good here for pot control ,if you miss your draw you won't be throwing away a big pot and you can build the pot if you hit

 

[WVHillbilly]

And if opponent reraises?
Imo, check-calling is also good here for pot control ,if you miss your draw you won't be throwing away a big pot and you can build the pot if you hit

Really hard to build a pot on 1 or 2 streets when there is nothing in it. **** pot control, go win the pot.

 

[ben_rhyno]

Really hard to build a pot on 1 or 2 streets when there is nothing in it. **** pot control, go win the pot.

Just raising doesn't mean the pot's yours though. What if your opponent calls the raise and you miss? Do you think we should bluff checkraise river and lose even more? Fold to a min bet if he leads into us with so much in there already? What's your plan with a 9 high missed straight draw and opponent min betting into a 50BB pot?

 

[WVHillbilly]

Just raising doesn't mean the pot's yours though. What if your opponent calls the raise and you miss? Do you think we should bluff checkraise river and lose even more? Fold to a min bet if he leads into us with so much in there already? What's your plan with a 9 high missed straight draw and opponent min betting into a 50BB pot?

On the river or the turn? What was the action on the turn if you're asking about the river? Was the river a good or bad card for our range? Did any draws complete on the river? Are you getting the feeling that I'm saying it depends yet?

 

[ben_rhyno]

Lol yeh of course it depends, I mean if we've built a pot by reraising a minbet on the previous street, and we miss the draw on the river, it leaves us with air and a decent sized pot we can't win unless we bluff at it

 

[WVHillbilly]

Lol yeh of course it depends, I mean if we've built a pot by reraising a minbet on the previous street, and we miss the draw on the river, it leaves us with air and a decent sized pot we can't win unless we bluff at it

Right. So sometimes we bluff at it when the cards hit our perceived range and sometimes we give up because the board didn't help us or our opponent is a station.