steveiam
CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
What happens if the board comes AA4 ?
What happens if the board comes AA4 ?
L
LukeSilver
Rock Star
Silver Level
from my experience there isnt a lot to be gained by doing this its best to stick to the same size pre flop however i have noticed post flop bets should be varied based on sizes and proportions of the pot. there are some situations in which betting a fifth of pot is much stronger then betting half to two thirds of pot people can disagree with me but the final table of the sunday millions every week tends not to. sometimes big bets are more appropiate other times they are not. eg one time i flopped top set with aces and the board flushed on the turn giving me the nut flush draw. it was checked to me i knew the guy could be drawing to a flush have a flush or have something else. i had his range crushed though. do i put in a big bet? well no because likely hood is he isnt going to come over the top of me or call it unless he already has a flush or another big hand but im beating anything but a flush here. if he has a flush i have 17 outs of 44. giving me a 38.6% chance of winning. am i getting called by anything im beating? a paired ace with a flush draw possibly which i have crushed. but thats very unlikely a set possibly again unlikely two pair again unlikely. i want to get some value but if i bet big hes only calling or fighting if im crushed if i bet small one he might have second pair and call the small bet to see the river and hope for showdown. two he might put me on a bluff and come over the top.
i bet 5th pot he re raised me half his stack i shoved he folded. in retro spect i should have called and let him shove the river.
of course always doing the same thing in this spot would reveal your hand range so combine with a range and use proper variances.
i think everyone focuses to much on pre flop variances when there not that important and more people should focus on post flop plays.
i bet 5th pot he re raised me half his stack i shoved he folded. in retro spect i should have called and let him shove the river.
of course always doing the same thing in this spot would reveal your hand range so combine with a range and use proper variances.
i think everyone focuses to much on pre flop variances when there not that important and more people should focus on post flop plays.
Tom1559
Legend
Silver Level
It is a question without a right or wrong answer as is demonstrated by the responses above. I try to vary my bets depending on my hand, position, other players etc but I can see the logic in betting a regular amount every time you want to bet or raise.
needaGF
Rock Star
Silver Level
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
poor argument, its fundamentally bad to raise different sizes in alot of spots, eg if you are going to 3x with 25bb its bad with any hand in your range, because you either lose action, or lose more v inelastic ranges.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
limping good hands will definitely not balance your ranges, it will just thin your raising range. plus to balance your limping range you will need to be limping a range that isnt profitable
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
I think you think I have a larger semi-bluffing rate than I actually do.
Not only that, but thru the course of 3 or 4 orbits we can make a determination of how we will play individual players at our table. Possibly thru long term stats, maybe V1 has been active or inactive so far in this session (ring or tourney).
We may determine we can play V1 aggressively, but can not play V2 that way. (Villain1, Villain2,etc.etc.).
If you are talking about first hand, first session against all villains, you want to establish a baseline raise that achieves the goals you want, which is usually for everyone to muck. At which point you might decide you want action and then know what that baseline raise is likely to do, and you might decide you need to adjust that next raise to get that action.
In essence, I don't like your counter argument to my original argument.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
why do we 3x 100bb deep? so we can pot all streets and get it in.
why do we minraise 20bb deep? so we can raise fold without wasting any extra chips, and give people maximum leverage to 3bet shove.
being a super nit is also bad because we get exploited and make it super easy to play perfectly against us.
when raising its impossible to tell which villain will flat us, ie targeting opponents with sizing preflop is nonsensical you cant you differential strategies for an event that hasnt occurred yet.
reads/gameflow should effect our opening ranges, but it shouldnt really affect our sizing as using certain sizing with stack sizes is fundamentally bad.
using a differential strategy based on hands is even worse because it becomes a super obvious bet sizing tell, and we either
a) miss value from going too small
b) induce too many calls
c) bloat pots with a weaker range
d) reduce the calling frequency.
our opening size should be the optimal opening size for our entire range, given stack sizes and structure.
why do we minraise 20bb deep? so we can raise fold without wasting any extra chips, and give people maximum leverage to 3bet shove.
being a super nit is also bad because we get exploited and make it super easy to play perfectly against us.
when raising its impossible to tell which villain will flat us, ie targeting opponents with sizing preflop is nonsensical you cant you differential strategies for an event that hasnt occurred yet.
reads/gameflow should effect our opening ranges, but it shouldnt really affect our sizing as using certain sizing with stack sizes is fundamentally bad.
using a differential strategy based on hands is even worse because it becomes a super obvious bet sizing tell, and we either
a) miss value from going too small
b) induce too many calls
c) bloat pots with a weaker range
d) reduce the calling frequency.
our opening size should be the optimal opening size for our entire range, given stack sizes and structure.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
how can people get a read on you if you use the same sizing?
eg he 3x's his entire range. must have KhKd
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
The bolded is just wrong. When the 90/0 guy limps pre and I have any hand worth isoing I'm likely going to make it 5 or 6x rather than my "standard" 4x. Why because I KNOW he's going to call and I like money. Same thing goes when he's in the blinds or even just at the table. I'm probably always adding 1bb when he's yet to act to any hand I'm opening. You should know pretty quickly when you're playing who your most likely callers are going to be and you can (and should imo) adjust your opening sizes accordingly. Another example is that if I have unknowns/looser players in the blinds I generally steal with a slightly tighter range and use a 3x opening size. Put two tight players in the blinds and I'm opening WIDE and always to 2x.
It never gets exploited because the tight players don't play back light and the loose player call regardless.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
yea i dont really disagree with any of that, but i consider isos and steals as special cases. That comment was more a response to DJ saying he would minraise when villain 1 calls but 3x when villain 2 calls, which doesnt make sense.
my comments were largely based on tourney play where the effective stack size and blind structure makes it very hard to not use a 'standard'
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barclayaz
Rising Star
Bronze Level
It would seem that raising consistently based on your stack size and position would be optimum. There is a lot of variety in specific sizing preferences above, but for example, if I am first to act pre-flop and always bet 2.25x with 12 to 20 bb, 2.5x with up to 40bb, 2.75x with up to 70bb and 3x with 120bb+, and I do this regardless of what I am holding, and let's say I add 1bb for every limper before me, then the actual bet size can never become a tell, right? (Again, you may use different bet and stack sizes, this is just an example.) If I also vary the bet by position, but do that in a structured way it would seem similar.
There seems to be a lot of folks who prefer to simply min-raise in all situations what do you think about that as a strategy?
There seems to be a lot of folks who prefer to simply min-raise in all situations what do you think about that as a strategy?
S
spendlewick
Rising Star
Bronze Level
We all have a usual pre flop raise, wether you realise or not you do mix it up depending on cards apponent etc. Maybe your telling yourself you nred to mix it up more?
teh_colonel_saigon
Rock Star
Silver Level
I guess if you really dont want to worry about it, you can bet the same thing every time. Its like wearing a school uniform kinda, it sucks, but it makes life that much easier.
But why wouldnt you give yourself more flexibility? Each situation demands a different response, I think its always better to have more options rather than one. And as long as you occasionally disguise the strength of your hand, no1 should have a good read on you anyway.
But why wouldnt you give yourself more flexibility? Each situation demands a different response, I think its always better to have more options rather than one. And as long as you occasionally disguise the strength of your hand, no1 should have a good read on you anyway.
T
twohaha
Rock Star
Silver Level
I think that you can raise more in the early positions. Since you already raise with few hands, and your opponents know this, raising more cuts down on yours implied odds and you can to put more money pre-flop when called. Due to laziness, I personally raise the same amount depending on my position (3-4x), but it is actually good to vary your raise size, as you can manipulate the size of the pot, isolate... as long as it is not obvious to your oppenents what hand you have (eg. AA, 70% 6x, 25% 3-4x, 5%limp, 33, 20%6x, 70%3-4x, 10% limp).
There is some information about preflop play in Sklansky's No-limit hold'em theory and practice, which is relevant to the pre-flop sizing...
There is some information about preflop play in Sklansky's No-limit hold'em theory and practice, which is relevant to the pre-flop sizing...
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Weisssound
Rock Star
Silver Level
It's not a terrible strategy to keep your bet sizes consistent overall - but its not necessarily a great strategy either.
The reason being that position and hand strength are really only two factors in the outcome of the hand. Remember that the real game happens at the flop. Pre-flop strategy should also involve how many other players are betting into the pot, and how frequently those players are limping. It also depends on where you see the hand going - which street do you see the hand ending?
For example - if you have A 2 suited, mid position, you may see the hand flop: 1) You flop an Ace. (2) You miss the flop. (3) You flop a flush draw (4) you flop a monster like A A X, or A 2 X, or the flush pops right there.
In example 1 and 2, the hand is really only going to go well for you if it ends at the flop. Chances are if you are going into the turn you're either up against a draw, a better pair, or a monster. In example 3 you need to be able to freely bet your odds on catching your draw (3:1). In 4 you need to be able to keep money going into the pot.
In all of these examples you have the minimal losses vs. the maximum gain IF the pot on the flop is fairly small. A big pot in the first three examples is high risk for you, and in the fourth example is high risk for the other players. So from middle position, a 2x Blind raise is probably a better option than a 3x Blind raise (assuming you want to play A 2suited). But the validity of this strategy changes if you have a ton of limpers - in which case you probably want to fold, unless you have a big chip lead, and then you're playing to the absolute nuts only. It also changes if you have more calling power. You have more calling power from late position so you can play for the turn (2x being a good number for that), or play big on the flop or even steal pre-flop (4, or even 5x Blind raise might be good for that). I wouldn't really recommend playing A 2 early position, but if you have a chip lead and want to beat someone up you may want to do a 4x or 5x Blind raise just to ensure you're either stealing or keeping the number of players going to the flop to a minimum.
So it all varies based on intentions.
The reason being that position and hand strength are really only two factors in the outcome of the hand. Remember that the real game happens at the flop. Pre-flop strategy should also involve how many other players are betting into the pot, and how frequently those players are limping. It also depends on where you see the hand going - which street do you see the hand ending?
For example - if you have A 2 suited, mid position, you may see the hand flop: 1) You flop an Ace. (2) You miss the flop. (3) You flop a flush draw (4) you flop a monster like A A X, or A 2 X, or the flush pops right there.
In example 1 and 2, the hand is really only going to go well for you if it ends at the flop. Chances are if you are going into the turn you're either up against a draw, a better pair, or a monster. In example 3 you need to be able to freely bet your odds on catching your draw (3:1). In 4 you need to be able to keep money going into the pot.
In all of these examples you have the minimal losses vs. the maximum gain IF the pot on the flop is fairly small. A big pot in the first three examples is high risk for you, and in the fourth example is high risk for the other players. So from middle position, a 2x Blind raise is probably a better option than a 3x Blind raise (assuming you want to play A 2suited). But the validity of this strategy changes if you have a ton of limpers - in which case you probably want to fold, unless you have a big chip lead, and then you're playing to the absolute nuts only. It also changes if you have more calling power. You have more calling power from late position so you can play for the turn (2x being a good number for that), or play big on the flop or even steal pre-flop (4, or even 5x Blind raise might be good for that). I wouldn't really recommend playing A 2 early position, but if you have a chip lead and want to beat someone up you may want to do a 4x or 5x Blind raise just to ensure you're either stealing or keeping the number of players going to the flop to a minimum.
So it all varies based on intentions.
D
DaleM
Rising Star
Silver Level
If im first in the pot I always 3X it in cash games, and MTT's until the later stages of the tourney when the antes kick in then I start 2.5x, and the when real deep I will min raise from late position, as to not blot the pot.
spiderman637
RIP Buck
Silver Level
The more abbarent your betting style, the lesser ur villians can get a read on you, and more likely u get success.
Infact not just the betting pattern, i recommend you to change your playing pattern every now and then...Will make your game fierce.
Infact not just the betting pattern, i recommend you to change your playing pattern every now and then...Will make your game fierce.