Bankroll Managment

Scouse

Scouse

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Hi All,

I have read as much as I can get my hands on regarding bankroll management. As some of you know I have been recovering from having my bankroll smashed quite a while ago, and I put the incident down to poor management of my own bankroll. I have read many of the posts on here but I come seeking two things:
  • Your personal opinion of how I should manage a bankroll of $1000
  • Any good points of reference on this topic i.e. forum posts like this, poker websites and books like this.
FYI My new bankroll is being funded by a stunning night of blackjack where I played against my boss, starting off with just $10 and he was being the house. I am also willing to inject $200 a month into my bankroll for as long as necessary.

Also please note, my confidence has been smacked down massively, and although I am looking forward to getting back in the saddle, I am looking to only join cash games with the minimum buy-in and play small tournament games.

Kind regards,

Scouse.
 
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bubbasbestbabe

bubbasbestbabe

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Since playing and going through my own wild swings of my bankroll the one bit of advice that I can give you is towards the type of game to play. I have found that limit HE seems to be the one game that gives you the most control over the BR swings. If you are a good player you will see a steady increase in your BR playing at that type of table with minimal loss. If the game seems boring to you, (and at times it will), you need to mix it up either with some low stake NLHE SNG's or a little higher stake tourney. I say low stake SNG because it's going to give you a little more action on the NLHE end. You can satisfy your craving for the little wilder play than what you have been doing. And at the same time not take a big hit to your BR.
At the higher NLHE MTT, the play is just a tad tighter and the rewards are greater. Your limit play should give you the disipline to wait for those killer hands and be able to move in for the coup de grace.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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Do you want to win, or is $200 a month something you'd be willing to spend on poker as a hobby? Are you looking to break even? Or do you think a bankroll of $1k is where you'd like to stay, and perhaps get a small cashout now and again with your winnings?

Or do you want to move up progressively as you get better?

If you're not a compulsive gambler, and you're playing for recreation rather than for money, a bankroll isn't that big of a deal. You just need to play at limits low enough that you can have a few rough sessions without going bust. But if your current deposit is what you want to play with (and not re-deposit) your job is to find a game that you can beat - usually by starting at the lower end and working your way up - and then take it from there.

In the guide I suggest you start with $50. Of course, you have a lot more than that already, but you could always consider that a bonus. About a third of the guide deals with bankroll management (and slightly related issues); perhaps there's something there for you?

Are there games that you know that you can consistently beat already?
 
Stick66

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Great advice so far. I just want to add 2 things I learned on my own the hard way:

1) Never, EVER sit down with more than 10% of your bankroll (I myself am only comfortable with 5%, but that's me). If you multi-table, that means the total of your tables combined. You gotta think of how you would feel if you lost the whole stack you sat down with, especially at NL cash tables. How bad would you feel if you lost $100 or even just $50? Winning is easy to handle, but I think losing should always be taken into consideration.

2) You said your "confidence has been smacked down massively". Then you need to do some non-consequential poker-related things to get it back into shape. Play a poker video game or play-money tables. Read some books. Watch some poker shows. Sit down with a friend and pick each other's brains about poker. Also, when you do start wagering real money, start with very low stakes until you get your confidence back. Lower than your $1K BR would dictate. Conquer the 5c/10c tables or the $5 SNG's before you move up.

Good luck!
 
AnnoDomino

AnnoDomino

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not really an answer to your question in the purest sense, but my top tip for bankrole management - play every 'added value' cardschat tourny you can get to

anno
 
tenbob

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Jumping straight onto $100 NL tables and higher buy-in sit and gos is generally a mistake.

Buy pokertracker before you start. Hit the smaller buy in tables and dont move up until you play a pre-determined amount of hands, if you cant beat a $10NL table you certainly wont beat a $100 one. Have the odd move up, take a look, and go from there.
 
thelynx

thelynx

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I apply the roule that I go to a table with 10x BB. If my bankroll would decrease below 300xBB I would start to play at a lower limit. If my bankroll would increase to 450xBB I would start to play at a higher limit
 
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Allsopp

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Well. First of all, it depends what you want the bankroll to do.

The only reason you need a bankroll for poker, is to win at it. If your just a recreational player - you dont need a bankroll at all.

I say this because, if you go bust when playing for fun - it doesn't really matter. But if you go bust when your trying to win cash. Then thats a serious problem.

Also, you need to get your confidence back before you play poker. I make a living out of online poker, by beating up on people on the cash games and issuing badbeats. However I wouldn't be able to do this if I wasn't confident and happy to lose money to win money. You should never be timid at the tables or afraid of losing because if you do your in the same mindset as a gambler and will always lose.

As for management. Well, like the good man says. Only have 5% of your bankroll in play at anyone time and if you lose that 5% stop playing. If you want to be able to go bust and reload then make sure your bankroll is big enough to not put more than 5% of your bankroll at risk.

For example the highest possible limit you should be playing with your bankroll is 0.25/0.50. Because 5% is 1 maximum buyin at that level [I am working like this because you should ALWAYS buy in with the maximum in cash games - there are no exceptions]

Then if you lose that you need to stop playing for the day. And look at maintaining that $1000 level before you start playing more. If you want to be able to reload etc at that levels then dont look at doing that until you take your bankroll upto $2000 BUT then you may want to consider moving to the 0.50/1 tables and using the same bankroll management strategy you have employed.

However first of all you need to be good enough to beat cash games and by the sounds of it - it dont sound like you are. Bankroll management is no good to anyone if your not good enough to use it effectively and increase it!

Good Luck!
 
medeiros13

medeiros13

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.

For example the highest possible limit you should be playing with your bankroll is 0.25/0.50. Because 5% is 1 maximum buyin at that level [I am working like this because you should ALWAYS buy in with the maximum in cash games - there are no exceptions]

There is some very good advice you're getting here.

Allsopp, I want to ask you to expand further on the quote below. I'm a relatively small stakes player but I always go in with the minimum because I think it keeps me very tight early in my session and that helps. Worse case scenario, I lose my first minimum and gain some knowledge on the playstyle of the particular table I'm at.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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There are definitely exceptions to buying in with the maximum. Shortstack play can be a lot more profitable if you're just starting out playing NL, because it keeps you from making big mistakes. I feel like a parrot, but Ed Miller's Getting Started in Hold 'em covers the how and why for this very well.
 
A

Allsopp

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Hey meideiros.

In poker there is generally one way to make alot of money. Thats being the table captain. This is true in both tournaments and cash games and this is also a good reason why you dont have to differentiate your play that much between tournies and cash games - contrarary to what some pro's tell you. Many more pro's will tell you that there aren't great differences.

This brings me to the point of always buyin in with the maximum. You should always do this because, straight away in cash games you can jump ahead of the players that haven't even got the maximum buy in in front of them.

The person on the table with the most chips is nearly always the table captain. The benefits of this are numerous but mainly:

- People will generally, never make moves against you because they see you as a dangerous player. If you have $110 in front of you and the maximum buy in is $50, you are nearly always a good player and therefore people are less likely to take you on. Which makes playing the game much easier for you.

- People are afraid of you. You have the collateral to bust ANYONE on the table. This instantly makes scared money, TERRIFIED money. As a result, almost anytime you bet - if your opponent doesn't have much, they will fold. If you dont believe me, get a big stack and try it yourself!

- You have win equity. This means that you can win the absolute maximum with your monster hands, simply because you have more chips - which sets you on your journey to becoming table captain alot sooner than picking up all these small pots! Granted, you can also lose more. But a good poker player shouldn't be commiting large portions of his stack in a hand unless he has the nuts anyway.

- You retain the most fold equity on the table. This means that you have enough chips to make people fold. If you can bust someone by having more chips than them, they are less likely to heap pressure on you in hands. Rather than when you only have 1/2 the maximum buy in and big stacks with constantly try to bully you - simply because if you reraise them all in you simply dont have enough chips to hurt their stack. Some may argue that this is beneficial because you will always get pair off. But at the same time you will also get called alot and sucked out on when people make value calls and you will also get bullied around alot.

There are many more reasons why you should always buyin with the maximum and I could explain in more detail the reasons I've given, but I'd be here all day!

If anyone wants me to elaborate - just ask!

Good luck at the tables!
 
D

Dingodaddy23

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Since playing and going through my own wild swings of my bankroll the one bit of advice that I can give you is towards the type of game to play. I have found that limit HE seems to be the one game that gives you the most control over the BR swings.


take it from me, LHE is the devil. i cant tell you how many times i have spent days and weeks grinding up a bankroll only to donk it off taking a shot at a big limit game and running disgustedly bad enough to tilt me into losing the rest of it. hell, i just did it the other night. just as i was starting to get good at NLHE cash games, i decide to go play some 5/10 limit and take bad beat after bad beat until i lose the entire 700$ i had built up from 20 during the week.
 
Scouse

Scouse

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Thanks for all your advice - in answer to some previous questions - I ma looking to dedicate 2 to 3 hours a night during weekdays and aprroximately 12 hours on the weekend to playing poker online. I want to make money. How much? Any money is better than no money - I have no deliusions and I am not about to quit my job to become the next wsop champion.

I want to continue learning as a poker player, and I want to get my game back, and I want to keep my game sharp.

I am daunted because I have read over a few articles I wrote as long as a years ago, and I don't understand them as intuitively as I used to. I never really paid any respect to bankroll management and I was punished for not doing so. Also, I have never taken to playing limit hold'em. Maybe I should be ready to go back to square one and start all over?

Before I started this post, I was thinking of playing $.25/$.50 PL Hold'em games using $25 to buy in and not re-buying more than once a night - to limit any amount of tilt I may hit.

Also - I think I would prefer a place that would give me $25 max/min buy-in. Does anyone know where I can have that - I got bored of the last site I played on that offered that. If I used tables with a mx/min buy in - first of all it level the playing fiield for me and secondly I wouldnt have to decide if i want to buy in short stacked or for the max.

I see the benfits of both - as a person i have always got a kick out of taking a small amount of cash and turning it into something bigger.

F Paulsson - I haven't read Ed Miller's book yet - but I will - I still have time before my deposit clears in neteller - so I will search for some freerolls until then.

Regards,

Scouse.
 
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Allsopp

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Hey Scouse.

Limit poker is probably the easiest way to make money in Poker, because the Badbeats are less likely to destroy you. Although you need to be able to deal with tilt to play Limit, as you will get dished out one hell of alot more Badbeats in it.

I make a nice sum of cash playing high stakes limit poker. With Limit you can also move out of your comfort zone and stepup levels without a big a risk to your bankroll as in No Limit or even Pot Limit.

For Cash Games I mainly play on Full Tilt. For tournaments, I switch to the Igaming network and microgaming network for some good value. But I have bankrolls on most sites so I can switch to wherever is needed whenever.

This is another element of bankroll management I find useful.

Spread your bankroll across many sites. Personally I keep it all in Neteller but some people might not be comfortable with that!
 
Lo-Dog

Lo-Dog

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Also - I think I would prefer a place that would give me $25 max/min buy-in. Does anyone know where I can have that - I got bored of the last site I played on that offered that. If I used tables with a mx/min buy in - first of all it level the playing fiield for me and secondly I wouldnt have to decide if i want to buy in short stacked or for the max.

pokerstars has 10c/25c tables, so you could max buy in with $25.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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Thanks for all your advice - in answer to some previous questions - I ma looking to dedicate 2 to 3 hours a night during weekdays and aprroximately 12 hours on the weekend to playing poker online. I want to make money. How much? Any money is better than no money - I have no deliusions and I am not about to quit my job to become the next WSOP champion.

That's a pretty serious investment of time, and I like that you're moving towards it with a clear mind; poker isn't - for all but the very few - a fast track to riches. When you take poker seriously, and you do by the sound of things, your bankroll does matter quite a lot. Three hours a night, with a break every hour or so to stretch your legs, go to the bathroom, get a snack, etc., should be enough to play at least 2000 hands a week, even if you only play a single table. With sufficient skill, you'll propel through the ranks pretty quickly that way. Since you're not dependent on it for your income, may I suggest that you start out low and work your way up?

You have a big bankroll, but if you're ready to beat the $.50/$1 limit games (or $25 NL tables) you're going to be able to move up pretty quickly without having to stretch your bankroll at all. If it's limit you're looking into, I suggest starting right there; $.50/$1 tables (giving you a nice 1000 BB bankroll) and move up when you've made 300 BB. Then start playing $1/$2, make another $600 there, move up again. All the while, study! Post hands, think about concepts, work on tilt. Limit can be really, really cruel in a way that NL isn't: With NL, it's more of a quick sting, but a bad streak in limit is like watching your money run slowly through your fingers like trying to hold on to water.

Studying, discipline - don't get drunk and lose 50 BB; that's perhaps a whole week's worth of winnings - and keep your eyes on the ball. You may do well in practising multitabling as well, but start out small (i.e. two tables) and find where your sweet spot is.

Allow it to take time. Poker proficiency is really, really hard to come by and it comes slowly and in small portions. Not just that, but results are measured by the long haul - the months worth of play, not tonight's earnings - and just because you've had a rough streak doesn't mean that you suck, nor does three winning nights mean that you're ready to take a shot at $30/$60.

Also, figure out what your primary motive is. It may be to make money, but it may also be that you're looking for a challenge. How do these goals weigh in relation to each other? Or that of socializing, or... There are many reasons to play poker, and very few people play only to make money. Knowing why you play helps a lot when you plan for the future. To use myself as an example, I don't play to make money. I play a modest 1,000 hands per week on average, and my ambition is to move up as far as I can but not necessarily as fast as I can. The small cashouts I make is my way of patting myself on the back. It helps me keep perspective on cold streaks and hot air. I think of them in terms of "I've taken a large step towards the next limit" or "I'm now back to square one of $5/$10", not "jesus, I just lost $500!"

Anyway, I strongly advocate that you start small. If you're skilled enough you'll move up quickly. If you're not, you should be glad you stuck around the shallow end of the pool and take the time to learn the lessons you need to move on. Moving up the ladder slowly can be frustrating, but it's safe. And most of the time, it's fun.

All the best,

Fredrik
 
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Allsopp

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That is probably the best post I have ever read on this forum. Most of the advice given here is really bad and obviously dished out by amateurs but that bit of text from Paulsson is top class!!!!

Take it very seriously!
 
Lo-Dog

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That is probably the best post I have ever read on this forum. Most of the advice given here is really bad and obviously dished out by amateurs but that bit of text from Paulsson is top class!!!!

Take it very seriously!

Ya this one time some guy was telling everyone to fold premium hands to a raise. Some people.
 
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Allsopp

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Ya this one time some guy was telling everyone to fold premium hands to a raise. Some people.

Your an idiot.

Pay someone a compliment and get shot down for it.

If you cant understand the concept of mixing your play up to win more chips as opposed to relying on odds and hoping they come off - then you really are playing the wrong game.
 
Scouse

Scouse

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F Paulsson your advice is indeed good :D. I will take it slowly, and start low. I have to say, as much as I respect limit, it will take a large effort for me to play it - as it does seem a tad boring - but I guess I have been spoiled by playing stakes and styles of betting that were unfortunately above my means.

I am feeling more positive now - my money cleared in my NETeller account this morning - but I am not rushing into anything. It is clear I need to go back to square one, and not look down my nose at doing so. If I start back there and build up slowly, progressing only when I have done what I need to, I will be able to move with a steady footing.

I will take your advice to also to post some hands and get advice and feedback on what I could have done better and what pitfalls i should avoid.

I really appreciate all the advice you and the rest of the members who have posted have given me.

Cheers!

Scouse.
 
Bankroll Building - Bankroll Management
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