WTF, proof of collusion on single table S N G @ Full Tilt, I'm startiing to get sick

[ph_il]

I actually did double up a few times...we played over 40 hands 3 handed...it was tough hanging in there that long, with me never having over 10 -15 bb at any point, even after doubling up. When I say he was only coming after me, I mean it.

Really? What were the blinds at at this point of the game? I'm assuming they're pretty high, maybe around 50/100 or so. Anyway, you say you played over 40 hands at 3 handed. To simply things, we'll say it was 45 hands at 3 handed, that means 30/45 hands, SB and BB were paid. Now, if you 2x as much as the short stack, you were raising the SS blinds, and facing the big stack's all in constantly, then there are a few easy solutions to this. A) Wait out the short stack to to bust out. Stop trying to steal from the short stack so much if you know you're going to fold to a big stack shove. You're just throwing chips away. B) Wait for a decent hand, raise, get shoved, call, and hope for the best. To me it looks like they weren't colluding (as you think).

To me, it looks big stack is playing is stack perfectly. He sees you're raise/folding a lot and he's taking advantage of that. You probably don't want to get KO'd in 3rd and you're not willing to hrisk calling an all in. So, he's picking up pot after pot from you and you're just making it easier for him.

Also, if you're doubling up to only 10-15 BBs, that's telling me that you're shoving when you have 5-8 BBs left at 3 handed. So, what does this tell me? Well, either you're raised/folded yourself down to a short stack. If that's the case, you probably didn't learn after the 4th or 5th time it happened, continued to do so, and brought yourself this low. Or you're playing way too tight 3 handed; maybe in 'fear' of getting KO'd in 3rd when you're almost guaranteed a 2nd place finish. Or maybe its a combination of both. Regardless, if you're 3 handed and at the point were you're stack is dropping to less than 8BBs before you decided to shove, that's a huge leak in your game...

Edit: I just saw this

The more I think about it now, we were actually both technically short stacked, I just had about 3-4 bb more than the shorter stack but I was still short, around 10/12bb.

While this does change a bit of what i said above, it doesn't say much. It does, however, point out a huge flaw in your game. You're raising a short stack with a 10-12BB stack of your own and folding to a shove. Um...why are you raising here? With a stack of your size, a standard 3-4x raise is going to cost you at a 1/4-1/3 of your stack. Way too much to put in and then fold. No wonder you've found yourself so short so easily. With a stack this size, your only option is to shove it in. Raise/fold is too passive with a short stack and 3 handed. Plug your leaks.

 

[Kasanova King]

Really? What were the blinds at at this point of the game? I'm assuming they're pretty high, maybe around 50/100 or so. Anyway, you say you played over 40 hands at 3 handed. To simply things, we'll say it was 45 hands at 3 handed, that means 30/45 hands, SB and BB were paid. Now, if you 2x as much as the short stack, you were raising the SS blinds, and facing the big stack's all in constantly, then there are a few easy solutions to this. A) Wait out the short stack to to bust out. Stop trying to steal from the short stack so much if you know you're going to fold to a big stack shove. You're just throwing chips away. B) Wait for a decent hand, raise, get shoved, call, and hope for the best. To me it looks like they weren't colluding (as you think).

To me, it looks big stack is playing is stack perfectly. He sees you're raise/folding a lot and he's taking advantage of that. You probably don't want to get KO'd in 3rd and you're not willing to hrisk calling an all in. So, he's picking up pot after pot from you and you're just making it easier for him.

Also, if you're doubling up to only 10-15 BBs, that's telling me that you're shoving when you have 5-8 BBs left at 3 handed. So, what does this tell me? Well, either you're raised/folded yourself down to a short stack. If that's the case, you probably didn't learn after the 4th or 5th time it happened, continued to do so, and brought yourself this low. Or you're playing way too tight 3 handed; maybe in 'fear' of getting KO'd in 3rd when you're almost guaranteed a 2nd place finish. Or maybe its a combination of both. Regardless, if you're 3 handed and at the point were you're stack is dropping to less than 8BBs before you decided to shove, that's a huge leak in your game...

Edit: I just saw this While this does change a bit of what i said above, it doesn't say much. It does, however, point out a huge flaw in your game. You're raising a short stack with a 10-12BB stack of your own and folding to a shove. Um...why are you raising here? With a stack of your size, a standard 3-4x raise is going to cost you at a 1/4-1/3 of your stack. Way too much to put in and then fold. No wonder you've found yourself so short so easily. With a stack this size, your only option is to shove it in. Raise/fold is too passive with a short stack and 3 handed. Plug your leaks.

The blind were actually higher...I think around 100/200, I was fluctuating between $2000 and $3000 chips, short stack was fluctuating between $1200 - $2000 chips.

The short stack was to my left, the only time I would raise (b/c I knew the big stack would shove) is if the big stack had already folded, which was very, very rare, maybe 1 out of 7 - 8 hands. Other than that, as soon as i would get super short, I had to either push or call a push if I was on my bb.

 

[ph_il]

Then everything is completely standard the way everyone played. No colluding involved. You just got unlucky at the end.

That's all.

 

[doops]

This has turned into quite an interesting evaluation and discussion of final 3 play in one table SNGs. Gave me a lot to think about, and some things to try out consciously. Thanks all.

 

[Roger1960]

wow, this has gone more than a little out off the path I think. This started off being about collusion, that is all he was asking about. And yes it does look like it to me. I would send the info to full tilt support and they will sort it out.
I reported an instance on poker stars. I won the tourney in question but the other players got robbed. Support there thanked me for telling them and closed their accounts and payed back all the players they could who played against them and lost money from the collusion.
poker sites do not want players getting cheated, that is not the reason they are in business. Without seeing all the hands you were 3 way in, I can't say if there was collusion or not. Support has access to all the hands and they will know. Good luck getting this sorted out.

 

[Poker Orifice]

2nd, Do not brag about 15% ROI because A: it's not good ROI for single table SnG's and B: you WILL get looked up and it will be used against you for credibility.

3rd, My ROI sucks, (no pun intended to the CCer who's SN is that) there are a lot of players who's ROI sucks. I don't care who see's mine but it does. I will not and do not suggest ever posting some great feat unless it is true.

4th, due to the 15% ROI claim, you are making a huge deal about a $5 SnG.

5th and final: We are here to help you, no need to get defensive with us.

Sorry Sean but an roi +15% is actually quite good. It's rare you'll find anyone who plays strictly STT (9-plyr.) SNG's who has an ROI of more than +15% (over a decent sample size). I'm not sure what percentage of players in micros (as it is possible to have a slightly higher ROI there than at higher buyin levels) but am pretty certain it would be less than a few percent of all players.
At the $10 & above it is very rare to see players above +15% and actually, the current #1 ranked player on the SNG leaderboard only has an ROI +10% (large volume, buyin $5-$16 category).
Maybe you should do some homework before making such a statement.

4) if you honestly felt you were cheated in a game, would it matter if it was only one game of the many you played (if you were a winning player)? To me it would. It would piss me off in a big way (although I don't think this example proves any collusion, but I wasn't on the table and didn't see how the earlier portion of the game played out, nor have I seen any HH's.... one thing OP could do if they care so much, do a player search of each of these players and see if you find them repeatedly on the same tables... OR.. do a search on topshark & see if they show up in the same games alot of the time, this is actually how I presented a case of collusion in the past to Fulltilt, ~80% of the games the two had played, they were in the same game... pretty obv).

5) Maybe OP does feel the need to be defensive? Some of the comments don't seem particularly 'helpful' to me. How helpful are your comments?

 

[Kasanova King]

Sorry Sean but an roi +15% is actually quite good. It's rare you'll find anyone who plays strictly STT (9-plyr.) SNG's who has an ROI of more than +15% (over a decent sample size). I'm not sure what percentage of players in micros (as it is possible to have a slightly higher ROI there than at higher buyin levels) but am pretty certain it would be less than a few percent of all players.
At the $10 & above it is very rare to see players above +15% and actually, the current #1 ranked player on the SNG leaderboard only has an ROI +10% (large volume, buyin $5-$16 category).
Maybe you should do some homework before making such a statement.

4) if you honestly felt you were cheated in a game, would it matter if it was only one game of the many you played (if you were a winning player)? To me it would. It would piss me off in a big way (although I don't think this example proves any collusion, but I wasn't on the table and didn't see how the earlier portion of the game played out, nor have I seen any HH's.... one thing OP could do if they care so much, do a player search of each of these players and see if you find them repeatedly on the same tables... OR.. do a search on topshark & see if they show up in the same games alot of the time, this is actually how I presented a case of collusion in the past to Fulltilt, ~80% of the games the two had played, they were in the same game... pretty obv).

5) Maybe OP does feel the need to be defensive? Some of the comments don't seem particularly 'helpful' to me. How helpful are your comments?

Thanks being rational, I appreciate it.

This thread got derailed so early that I failed to mention a lot of the things that were going on & you're right, I should try to get the hand history.

Like at few points it got so bad that the short stack had about 1200 in chips, large stack 8500 or so....short stack was on the bb, large stack UTG, bb were100/200, UTG raises 800, I fold, BB goes all in for a total of 1200, then large stack folds.....like what the!?!?!? Give me a rational reason he wouldn't call his all in in that situation for 400 more chips, other than a chip dump?

They pulled something similar to that twice while we were 3 handed and once earlier - after the one won the big hand they were referring to in the chatbox.

They also were talking to each other, along with a 3rd part through out the tournament in the chatbox. The 3rd party would blurt things out in the chatbox like, "call!", "raise!" , "fold!" Now whether these guys were pros( which I'm sure they're not) or just some punk kids who knew each other (most likely) it was obvious they were colluding.

I play these STT all the time and it does happen from time to time (or at least things may look suspicious) but this one was absolutely blatant. I confronted them in the chatbox and they all vanished.

I would have no reason to start a thread about something like this unless I was positive it happened. I play 6-8 hours a day online and see all kinds of crazy stuff that I just brush off, but when it comes right up and smacks me in the face, then I'll start a thread about it, lol.

 

[OzExorcist]

I agree 100%. Obviously someone with a 15% ROI in micros wouldn't have that same ROI in higher stakes....and I wouldn't go to higher stakes online until my ROI is much higher. (Unless I'm on a tilt rampage, lol)

If you've really got a 15% ROI that's pretty good - how high do you really think you can get it before you move up?!?


+ toasting in an epic bread IMO

 

[WurlyQ]

Ahaha this thread is still alive and kicking.

 

[Kasanova King]

If you've really got a 15% ROI that's pretty good - how high do you really think you can get it before you move up?!?


+ toasting in an epic bread IMO

To play higher stakes....over 15% It's actually fluctuating between 10% - 15% on Full Tilt now...once it fluctuates between 15% - 20%, then I'll move up to the next level, and so on (as long as my br permits). Plus, it's such a small sample - about 140 buy ins between UB and Full Tilt - need to get up to about 300 - 400 buy ins before I'm sure enough to move up.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

[ ] collusional HH
[x] delusional KK
[x] thread delivers the lols
[?] FTP makes a commercial gesture and refunds KK since it's good business for them to keep donators happy.

 

[Ecomdan]

I am the best poker player in the world! My ROI is 100% since I read (actually listened to the tape) Phil Helmuths book... the first chapter and a half before I fell asleep on the plane. I just always get really bad beats like when my TPTK gets cracked by a set, I hate donks who call raises pre flop with mid pocket pairs and then hit a better hand than me. As soon as I actually get a bankroll again I'll show you all


See you at the next FT freeroll

 

[leon818]

collusion is happen everywhere, trying to prove afterward is also pointless. I suggest spend time observe players, i say observe til a big pots game played, if everthing normal then buyin, espeicllly big buyin NL table

 

[ph_il]

I colluded with some members on this site so that we could prove there was actually no colluding going on in this hand. I conclude that our colluding to prove a lack of collusion has allowed OP to come to the conclusion that there was in fact no colluding involved in and he simply jumped to conclusions.

 

[Kasanova King]

[ ] collusional HH
[x] delusional KK
[x] thread delivers the lols
[?] FTP makes a commercial gesture and refunds KK since it's good business for them to keep donators happy.

I guess I am delusional since you seem to think so and I'm glad I was able to entertain you...personally, it takes much more to entertain me but I guess when you have a rather mediocre social life, a thread like this will suffice.

I actually made more from cashing in the tourney in 3rd place the what I would get refunded to me, so I would lose out if Full Tilt decided to do that. Considering the fact that I've only deposited 25 bucks into my account about a month ago and my current balance sits at $92, I'm confused about exactly what donations are you referring??

I colluded with some members on this site so that we could prove there was actually no colluding going on in this hand. I conclude that our colluding to prove a lack of collusion has allowed OP to come to the conclusion that there was in fact no colluding involved in and he simply jumped to conclusions.

Yes, you guys proved that. Thanks for clearing things up for me, I can see the light now.

 

[iamthepush]

I'm confused about exactly what donations are you referring??

I think he is talking about the rake and entry fees.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

I actually made more from cashing in the tourney in 3rd place the what I would get refunded to me, so I would lose out if Full Tilt decided to do that. Considering the fact that I've only deposited 25 bucks into my account about a month ago and my current balance sits at $92, I'm confused about exactly what donations are you referring??

Since you move up when you tilt, it's only a matter of time before your $25 become a donation.

2. You could make a living with a 15% ROI in STT's in higher stakes. (Or at least a decent 2nd income) Example: If you played 20 $50 buy in STT a day with a 15% ROI you would be netting around $150 a day. 15% is far from bad.

People who make a living at $50 STT's don't play 20 STT's a day, they play 20 STT's an hour. With 5% ROI if they're really good. That makes $50/hour, which is a terrible salary for the kind of grind that is involved here. That's why most players switch to cash games instead.

 

[paumarhas]

your just sore because of the outcome. i don't see any proove. but gl anyway.

 

[jaggibson]

If 2 players with -20% ROI collude with eachother does that make their effective ROI -40%?

Funny not sure about that one. Either way not making money. And most likely not colluding.

 

[jaggibson]

Kasanova King not getting alot of sympathy. Is it possible with a name like Kasanova King you think rather highly of yourself all around?

 

[Kasanova King]

Kasanova King not getting alot of sympathy. Is it possible with a name like Kasanova King you think rather highly of yourself all around?

It's just an old nickname from high school, I've been using it as my screen name for years.

 

[jaggibson]

Just kidding around with you. Its all good.

 

[Kasanova King]

Since you move up when you tilt, it's only a matter of time before your $25 become a donation.



People who make a living at $50 STT's don't play 20 STT's a day, they play 20 STT's an hour. With 5% ROI if they're really good. That makes $50/hour, which is a terrible salary for the kind of grind that is involved here. That's why most players switch to cash games instead.

I agree, that's why I don't move up anymore when I'm on tilt, if i happen to do so, then I quickly move back down when I realize what I'm doing.

From what I hear, the top players in STT have closer to a 10% ROI, even at the higher stakes, so 10 tabling STT isn't too much of a grind for $50 an hour.

 

[Sean Pilgrim]

Sorry, I don't grind out STTs or MTTs. I just thought a 15% ROI was not good. I mean cash in 15 out of 100, doesn't seem logical, doesn't seem profitable. After looking back on post from yesterday I see I was in the wrong and please accept my apology KK.

Thanks for pointing out the differences PO.

 

[chuG]

I was in the exact same situation before, they were even saying it over the chat box. Some how, fortunatley, I won it.