What should have been done, dealer mistakenly MUCKS my AK after i go all in

[Stu_Ungar]

stu > i thought this was the rule

"Pretty much every version of the rules of poker (the TDA rules certainly do) also allow for the floor person to make a judgement that goes against the technical rules if it's in the interests of fairness.

So what's "fair" actually counts for a great deal." Oz

Plus are you saying that if a dealer takes your cards from under your card protector you should still lose all your chips?

I'll simply keep reposting the rule until it sinks in that you must protect your cards at all times.

IRREGULARITIES



2. You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it.

I have just amended your quote so that it more accurately reflects what you believe.

"Pretty much every version of the rules of poker (the TDA rules certainly do) also allow for the floor person to make a judgement that goes against the technical rules if it's in the interests of me

 

[bubonicplay]

This is the rule

You forgot to quote the rule where the floor can over-ride any rule in the best interest of the game. You can keep quoting the rule that says you have no redress but you do have redress since the floor or TDA can over-turn the no redress rule if it's in the interest of the game/fairness.

 

[Kasanova King]

To all the people who are saying it was mostly my fault for not protecting my hand, my hand was over my cards but he went grabbing for it and it happened so fast, he was the dealer, so i just moved my hand.. for all i knew they said call and there was a showdown, i wasn't going to be some weirdo who barks at the dealer because he's going for my cards, and i dont think anyone else would.

To all those people though, what if the dealer slipped the cards out from under your chip or protector, would you still feel the same way if they said your hand was dead and you were forced to make the call?

If had my hand over my cards an the dealer went to grab them from under my hands the dealer would have gotten his hand slapped. (in a friendly but firm way, lol.) Problem solved.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

You forgot to quote the rule where the floor can over-ride any rule in the best interest of the game. You can keep quoting the rule that says you have no redress but you do have redress since the floor or TDA can over-turn the no redress rule if it's in the interest of the game/fairness.

It is not in the interest of fairness or the game to overturn this rule.

As it stands, the rule is if your cards are mucked in any way you have no recourse if they werent protected.

Everyone knows where they stand here.

Now lets have the floor come in and allocate the person two cards from the mucked pile which he claims are his (we reall cant be 100% sure this isnt some elaborate form of cheating).

Lets say one of these two cards is the Ah.

He wins the pot and just before he scoops up the pot another player says Ah, I mucked the Ah.

Now this player may be mistaken, he may have mucked the Ad.

The winning player may be mistaken (but honestly so) maybe he had the Ad, it was red and he confused it with Ah

Maybe one of these players is out right liying to either cheat or cause trouble or get the hand declared dead and get his money back.

Who knows? Its really impossible to tell because we have to take people at face value. However its a situation that could not have occured if the rules had been followed and the mucked hand was declared dead.

The rule is there for a reason, and the reason is to prevent uncertainty.

By overturning it you face even bigger problems for which there would be no clear solution should these problems arise.

So with all that in mind, lets look at how elegent and simple this rule is and lets consider all of the problems it prevents before deciding that this rule only serves to to undermine the fairness of the game.

IRREGULARITIES



2. You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it.

 

[Sean Pilgrim]

Don't sweat it. I was in a cash game with QJ, flopped quad queens, and everyone and their mother had high PP's so there was a lot of action, needless to say went all in due to the raises and re-raises in front of me, no chip on my cards, I had $350 in front of me, I was sitting directly across from the dealer, I picked up my ipod out of my jacket pocket and looked away for a moment, my cards were gone.

to make a long story short, floor got involved, and they had to call surveillance, they reimbursed my $350 but that was all. I was so angry at life... I haven't tipped that dealer since then.

 

[OzExorcist]

I'll simply keep reposting the rule until it sinks in that you must protect your cards at all times.

Two can play at that game:

1. Floor People
Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as the top priority in the decision-making process. Unusual circumstances can on occasion dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over the technical rules. The floorperson's decision is final.

That's TDA rule number one, which should tell you the importance they place on it.

The situation you've described above is irrelevant because the player won't be given their hand back unless the dealer and floor are certain that it's the correct two cards that are being returned. If there's any doubt (as there was in the hand from last year's Main Event) the cards don't get returned and chips from that betting round probably get returned to the player instead. Chances are they won't be returned unless the dealer can identify the cards without the player having to tell anyone what they were.

Yes, the original rule is elegant and simple and FWIW I agree with it. Nobody's talking about reversing it or expecting it to be overruled every time a hand an unprotected hand is mucked in error. All we're talking about here is tournament all-in situations, which is a very small subset of the situations to which the rule applies and in which I, most of the others in this thread and apparently several reputable tournament directors feel it's appropriate to invoke the fairness provisions of the rules of poker.

 

[brianvoytek]

Very lucky to even get ANY chips back.

Consider this lesson learned and just get a chip protector or just hang on to them until its show down. Happens more often then you think.

Good luck on the felt.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Two can play at that game:

Originally Posted by Tournament Director's Association Rules 2009
1. Floor People
Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as the top priority in the decision-making process. Unusual circumstances can on occasion dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over the technical rules. The floorperson's decision is final.

Of course its worth remembering that the floor person took that into consideration and then made the decision to uphold the following rule.

IRREGULARITIES



2. You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it.

 

[OzExorcist]

Of course its worth remembering that the floor person took that into consideration and then made the decision to uphold the following rule.

Are you still talking about the OP?!?

"No redress" would mean they wouldn't get their cards back and they'd lose any chips they'd put in the pot. Game over, end of discussion. That clearly didn't happen, since the floor decided to give the player their chips back. They made a decision that went against the technical rule, in the interests of fairness.

If only Matt Savage posted here

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Are you still talking about the OP?!?

"No redress" would mean they wouldn't get their cards back and they'd lose any chips they'd put in the pot. Game over, end of discussion. That clearly didn't happen, since the floor decided to give the player their chips back. They made a decision that went against the technical rule, in the interests of fairness.

If only Matt Savage posted here

I am still talking about OP.

The floor made a very fair decision (unless of course the next guy held AA)

However, this whole thread has evolved around the fact that OP was not happy with this decision and the implication of that is that felt that his hand should have played.

The tone of the thread has been centred around whether or not the hand should have been allowed to be played rather than if the floor should have returned his chips.

Of course none of this addresses the root problem, that if his cards had been protected then the situation would not have occured in the first place.

 

[OzExorcist]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but I just went back through the whole thread and I can't find anyone claiming that the cards should have been given back, even if they were clearly identifiable.

And all OP asked was whether the floor made the correct ruling or not. IMO the floor did.

 

[5TR8 FLUSH]

That is very unfortunate and lucky, so the best of luck in your future tourney's on live and online events.
Atl east this didn't happen to you:
"wsop 2009 - AA preflop in to the muck (dead hand)"
on youtube

 

[nevadanick]

Don't sweat it. I was in a cash game with QJ, flopped quad queens, and everyone and their mother had high PP's so there was a lot of action, needless to say went all in due to the raises and re-raises in front of me, no chip on my cards, I had $350 in front of me, I was sitting directly across from the dealer, I picked up my ipod out of my jacket pocket and looked away for a moment, my cards were gone.

to make a long story short, floor got involved, and they had to call surveillance, they reimbursed my $350 but that was all. I was so angry at life... I haven't tipped that dealer since then.

What size table do you folks play at ?? Dealing at full size tables the dealer can't reach all the way across the table unless they have nearly 4+ foot arms. If you keep your cards fairly close to the pad and your chips that are bet are in front of the cards, most dealers can't even reach the chips without tipping the table over unless you push the chips (or your cards) forward toward the dealer.

The only real threatening seats (imo) are immediately to the left and right of the dealer. Most dealers even have trouble reaching seat #2 and the second seat to their right (8,9,or 10) depending on whether it's a 9,10 or 11 seat table. If you place your cards close to the pad, even without a protector it is danged hard for the dealer to reach and pull your cards.

 

[bazerk]

To all the people who are saying it was mostly my fault for not protecting my hand, my hand was over my cards but he went grabbing for it and it happened so fast, he was the dealer, so i just moved my hand.. for all i knew they said call and there was a showdown, i wasn't going to be some weirdo who barks at the dealer because he's going for my cards, and i dont think anyone else would.

To all those people though, what if the dealer slipped the cards out from under your chip or protector, would you still feel the same way if they said your hand was dead and you were forced to make the call?

Um, I have yet to see ^^ happen in a licensed poker room?

If you're ever in Vegas you'll be @ tables with very experienced dealers, heck experienced AC dealers can't even get jobs here (& that was before the economy tanked), due to the high standards.

The hand from the OP is over --> get a card protector...the next time it may not be ruled in your favor; the floor ruled in the fairness of the game this time because the dealer was inexperienced.

Or perhaps stick to online play then you won't have to be concerned with rulings from the floor? This is a collective 'you' not 'you' specific froghump; we have members that read the posts/threads & may not respond (they may be novices in a b&m & it would be in those persons best interest to have a card protector during their adventures with IRL poker).

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but I just went back through the whole thread and I can't find anyone claiming that the cards should have been given back, even if they were clearly identifiable.

And all OP asked was whether the floor made the correct ruling or not. IMO the floor did.

The way I read it is that when someone asks if the correct decision was made, it usually means they believe the correct decision was not made.

Being as the floor gave him back his chips, and given my assumption that he believes the decision was incorrect then it follows that OP believes the decision should have been for his hand to play.

 

[froghump]

stu > that wasn't my implication, even though i can see why you thought that. i wrote the post of more of a q&a about 'who's was more at fault?'

 

[doops]

After that happened in the WSOP -- which was such a shocking thing that just watching it left me gasping-- I don't think I will ever not have my hand on my cards after I go all in.

I dunno how a dealer could make such a mistake, but, plainly, it can happen. It does seem that sitting next to the dealer can be a liability, so when sitting there, be more careful.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

stu > that wasn't my implication, even though i can see why you thought that. i wrote the post of more of a q&a about 'who's was more at fault?'

Oh, well in that case I completely misunderstood the reason for the OP.

In terms of fault, I'd obviously say the dealer!

However this is a situation where fault and outcome are not linked. So establishing the dealer as being at fault doesn't lead to a better outcome for yourself.

 

[prepare]

Its your fault, your are supposed to protect your cards. You got really lucky because the chances of you winning that hand was less than 25% so chances were you were not going to win.

Put a chip on your cards just to make sure, its your job so make sure you do it.

 

[OzExorcist]

Put a chip on your cards just to make sure, its your job so make sure you do it.

Actually if this discussion (and the WSOP hand from last year) has taught us anything it's that you shouldn't use a chip - bring a card protector of your own instead because when you're all in, your chips are going to all be in the middle and you'll be right out of card protectors.

 

[luckforsome]

you should just carry a 10 stone object to put on your cards...that way, theres no way the dealers gonna wanna take your cards...

but in seriousness...i honestly think op guy is underestimating stu ungars constant posting...gotta protect your cards mate..its like marian jones going to olympics then forgetting her drugs..(catastrophy written all over it)