What should have been done, dealer mistakenly MUCKS my AK after i go all in

[nevadanick]

Holy crap!! I haven't played l;ive in a casino in 10 years. But I'd think any dealer in his right mind - well, you not only pushed, but called a verbal 'all-in' should be fired on the spot. On the spot, if you had witnesses. TBH, guarding my cards would never have crossed my mind either. Not in a million years. Guess I am as naive as you, as most here seem to disagree. That sucks, sorry. I don't think you were lucky to get your chips back. They should have compensated you, IMHO. I'll get flak for this, but MHO.

No real 'flak' DB, just a comment that guarding your cards is a vital part of LIVE play. Online the site does that for you, except for mis-clicks or site crashes that fold your (winning) hand. We don't get compensated for that site error...

On behalf of the dealer and as a frequent live player, there are a lot of things going on that can influence live play. In live tourneys, there are a number of tables active at one time, all playing the same game. Voices from all the tables mingle and can cause confusion, drink waitress disruptions, player discussions, general casino/card room noise and music interferes, etc. The reasons are countless that events happen live that do not happen online, and sometimes vice-versa.

The 'dead hand' and 'mucked cards' were put in the rules for a reason ... it can and does happen so decisions are already in place to handle whatever known, regular problems occur.

That is no excuse. Are you supposed to assume a professional does something no drugged, tired drunk should be capable of and get away with it?!?? Whoever hired him/her should pay - at least something. In good faith.

This is the human element of live play that we deal with, just like the electrical/mechanical failure we all know happens online and no one gets compensated.

<edit> I think Stu and I are saying about the same thing here, he just has quicker fingers...

 

[Divebitch]

The rules place the onus on the player to protect his cards to prevent this. This way when the dealer screws up, the casino has zero liablility becsause the player did not protect his cards. Therefore the player did not follow the rules and thus the casino does not pay out.

Okay, you protect your cards within reason. But when you verbally say 'all-in', you expect a dealer not to be incompetant enough to have his brain elsewhere if he has one. I mean, is it good for business to have the patrons guard each hand with their life? That cannot be enjoyable. I agree your cards should be fairly protected, and probably there are many 'iffy' cases. This does not sound like one.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Okay, you protect your cards within reason. But when you verbally say 'all-in', you expect a dealer not to be incompetant enough to have his brain elsewhere if he has one. I mean, is it good for business to have the patrons guard each hand with their life? That cannot be enjoyable. I agree your cards should be fairly protected, and probably there are many 'iffy' cases. This does not sound like one.

It doesn't matter how the situation occurred.

This is not a discussion about how things would be handled diffreently if you ran a casino

Were the cards protected? yes / no

Is there a rule requiring players to protect their cards at all times? yes / no

When you go allin, put your hand on your cards.

 

[Divebitch]

It doesn't matter how the situation occurred.

This is not a discussion about how things would be handled diffreently if you ran a casino

Were the cards protected? yes / no

Is there a rule requiring players to protect their cards at all times? yes / no

When you go allin, put your hand on your cards.

Okay, point taken, rules are rules. But given the situation, I would not have thought in a million years that might happen. Lesson learned? A cruel, unfair lesson, IMHO - but guess a lesson nonetheless.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

From Robert's Rules

IRREGULARITIES



2. You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it.

This is the rule you are up against!

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Okay, point taken, rules are rules. But given the situation, I would not have thought in a million years that might happen. Lesson learned? A cruel, unfair lesson, IMHO - but guess a lesson nonetheless.

It does happen, and its a shame, but once it happens you haven't got a leg to stand on. The only thing you can do is to protect your cards and prevent the dealer mucking your hand.

Again, this is the reason I am drumming it into you, so that you protect your cards and never have this happen to you.

 

[Divebitch]

It does happen, and its a shame, but once it happens you haven't got a leg to stand on. The only thing you can do is to protect your cards and prevent the dealer mucking your hand.

Again, this is the reason I am drumming it into you, so that you protect your cards and never have this happen to you.

Thanks. And like I said, haven't played live (except for home games) in a casino for many years. And where I've played was strictly Atlantic City, where they probably have a higher quality of dealers. And it was stud only available. But still.... tricky biz, if I ever go back, I'll be forewarned.

 

[dsvw56]

Okay, you protect your cards within reason. But when you verbally say 'all-in', you expect a dealer not to be incompetant enough to have his brain elsewhere if he has one. I mean, is it good for business to have the patrons guard each hand with their life? That cannot be enjoyable. I agree your cards should be fairly protected, and probably there are many 'iffy' cases. This does not sound like one.

Have you ever been in a card room with multiple tables being played? There's dozens or hundreds of conversations going on, people at all tables saying all-in, call, raise, and fold. It's not always possible to tell exactly what is being said, or even what table it's coming from.

Rules are there for a reason. This is why the "Each player is responsible for protecting their own cards" rule is employed. "Guard each hand with their life"? Seriously? How hard is it to keep your hand on your cards, or put something on top of them. It's simple, if your hand is on your cards, or you have a card protector, the dealer won't touch them. In all my years of playing live poker, I've never had a dealer try to scoop a hand that I didn't fold. I've seen it happen to other people, and I have no pity for them when they lose whatever they had invested. They should have read and understood the rules before sitting down. And yes, this rule will be clearly listed, usually on a large poster near the sign-up desk (and sometimes posted multiple times around the room) at every card room you go to.

Dealers are only human and they do make mistakes. This rule is designed to stop mistakes from happening. Is the punishment sometimes unfair? Yes. Is the rule sometimes bent to enforce the spirit of the law rather than the letter? Yes. Is it unfair to punish everyone else at the table because one player was unable to follow the rule (Either through delay from having to deliberate, or having someone not being awarded chips that were, by rule, theirs)? Yes. Is this a hard rule to follow or an unfair rule? No.

 

[nevadanick]

Thanks. And like I said, haven't played live (except for home games) in a casino for many years. And where I've played was strictly Atlantic City, where they probably have a higher quality of dealers. And it was stud only available. But still.... tricky biz, if I ever go back, I'll be forewarned.

'Stud' kind of explains it all (in your case) and explains your thinking. Dealing stud is quite diff than Holdem. I learned to play live at stud tables in 1969. That was THE game of the day, along with 5draw. 5stud had just faded to 7stud being most popular.

Stud dealers will not normally touch a stud hand in progress unless the player places their up cards face down or at least pushes all their cards toward the dealer. All hands are live unless the player folds them. Can't ever recall a dealer reaching for anyone's 'hand in progress' cards. Also, there is no 'all-in' action in stud unless it is your last chips into a betting round.

 

[Divebitch]

Seriously? How hard is it to keep your hand on your cards, or put something on top of them. It's simple, if your hand is on your cards, or you have a card protector, the dealer won't touch them.

Dealers are only human and they do make mistakes. This rule is designed to stop mistakes from happening. Is the punishment sometimes unfair? Yes.

Not that hard. Just been an education. Would not have thought it necessary. Simply that if I were in that situation, and had not happened to me before, would never have anticipated the possibility. Probably not at AC, but lesser venues, who knows. Hell, AC maybe. Certainly would not have ever given it a thought, come on now.

'Stud' kind of explains it all (in your case) and explains your thinking. Dealing stud is quite diff than Holdem. I learned to play live at stud tables in 1969. That was THE game of the day, along with 5draw. 5stud had just faded to 7stud being most popular.

Stud dealers will not normally touch a stud hand in progress unless the player places their up cards face down or at least pushes all their cards toward the dealer. All hands are live unless the player folds them. Can't ever recall a dealer reaching for anyone's 'hand in progress' cards. Also, there is no 'all-in' action in stud unless it is your last chips into a betting round.

Very interesting. My experience was somewhere in the early-mid 90's. And poker was only legal in AC for a month or less.

 

[liamkg]

i seen a clip of this happening at the world series your hand was dead and you should have been knocked out

 

[OzExorcist]

In poker language, the only one that counts, protecting your cards is the responsibility of the player and no on else.

Pretty much every version of the rules of poker (the TDA rules certainly do) also allow for the floor person to make a judgement that goes against the technical rules if it's in the interests of fairness.

So what's "fair" actually counts for a great deal.

 

[bubonicplay]

Just curious though ... in "thousands of all-ins" you've never considered a card protector as a "must have" .. ?? ... Seems like a professional carpenter that goes to work without his personal hammer ....

I haven't had thousands of all-ins live but in the amount of live poker I have played no one has ever had a problem with me verbally declaring all-in, counting my stack, having dealer verify it, and usually leave a chip or sometimes an entire stack on my cards. There are many professional players that don't have a card protector yet I know of zero professional carpenters with no hammers so not a great analogy...

 

[OzExorcist]

There are many professional players that don't have a card protector yet I know of zero professional carpenters with no hammers so not a great analogy...

FWIW, you'd be surprised the number of "professional" players that are clueless about the rules of live poker...

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I haven't had thousands of all-ins live but in the amount of live poker I have played no one has ever had a problem with me verbally declaring all-in, counting my stack, having dealer verify it, and usually leave a chip or sometimes an entire stack on my cards. There are many professional players that don't have a card protector yet I know of zero professional carpenters with no hammers so not a great analogy...

Good analogy? Bad analogy?

Does it matter?

If you fail to protect your cards and the dealer mucks your hand, you are the one who will lose out.

 

[Johnnybmoto]

Just keep hold of your hand when your all in, pretty simple. When I am all in I usually hold me cards up off the table a few inches, its a habit of mine and just seems safer in cases which the dealer may try and muck my hand.

 

[TheUndertaker]

you should really tip the dealer for that mistake good chance you would been out lol.

 

[M33K3R]

Yes, the right call was made. The same thing happened in the wsop and the person had aces. Protect your cards with your life!

 

[OzExorcist]

Just keep hold of your hand when your all in, pretty simple. When I am all in I usually hold me cards up off the table a few inches, its a habit of mine and just seems safer in cases which the dealer may try and muck my hand.

FWIW, don't do this. There's too big a chance that you'll accidentally flash a card to another player - just leave them flat on the table and by all means leave your hand on them if that makes you feel better.

 

[Kasanova King]

FWIW, don't do this. There's too big a chance that you'll accidentally flash a card to another player - just leave them flat on the table and by all means leave your hand on them if that makes you feel better.

...or just one finger, firmly on them....that's what I'll usually do if I don't have a chip on them for whatever reason.

 

[froghump]

To all the people who are saying it was mostly my fault for not protecting my hand, my hand was over my cards but he went grabbing for it and it happened so fast, he was the dealer, so i just moved my hand.. for all i knew they said call and there was a showdown, i wasn't going to be some weirdo who barks at the dealer because he's going for my cards, and i dont think anyone else would.

To all those people though, what if the dealer slipped the cards out from under your chip or protector, would you still feel the same way if they said your hand was dead and you were forced to make the call?

 

[froghump]

would you feel the same way if the dealer mucked your cards with a card protector on them? it's not that hard to grab them and slip them out from under, or grab the sides and slide them out.

would you feel the same way if this happened to you with a card protector on them?


EDIT: [woops, still getting used to the forum, i meant to reply under one persons comment, not another reply]

 

[froghump]

liam > why are you so harsh about it? you really think that when an accident like this happens that the rule should be that all your chips are gone? isn't that harsh for a dealer mistake? or are you saying if your chip is on your cards and he gets them that it's any different.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

liam > why are you so harsh about it? you really think that when an accident like this happens that the rule should be that all your chips are gone? isn't that harsh for a dealer mistake? or are you saying if your chip is on your cards and he gets them that it's any different.

This is the rule

IRREGULARITIES



2. You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it.

 

[froghump]

stu > i thought this was the rule

"Pretty much every version of the rules of poker (the TDA rules certainly do) also allow for the floor person to make a judgement that goes against the technical rules if it's in the interests of fairness.

So what's "fair" actually counts for a great deal." Oz

Plus are you saying that if a dealer takes your cards from under your card protector you should still lose all your chips?