Too good for this level?

timboslice4

timboslice4

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i wouldn't gp any higher than $5 because there is some truth that you dont want to play 1 or 2 dollar tournaments because the rake will crush you. But at those $10 dollar tournaments you have to be a solid player to win over a long sstretch. You should start with the $5 tournamentsw and then work up to the $10. A $100 BR isnt really enough to play $10 sit n gos. Try looking at a thread that talks about BR management.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Every time after i bust out of a MTT i use a poker calculator to see exactly what my odds were and most of the times i was at least 60% favorite.

That is so utterly irrelevant to the fact you are or not a winning player at this game that my guess is that you're a fish that got lucky early on. And BRM won't do you any good if you're -EV.
 
Nexus6

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Go Borg and adapt too their play.

Lets take as an example a person who has problems winning a 5$ heads up sng against a fairly poor opposition what do you think his edge is against players who have grinded their way through the levels and learning how to play and counteract styles of play? Gray skies or not this is very misguided, to advise somebody its ok to go from micro play to 50$ games because they one game is just very silly, and even if they go on a heater sooner or later the skill tells and these people who beleive that they are a poker god get stung.

It has happened so many times somebody comes in says man I am crushing such and such a game and then you either hear them a few weeks later in bustoville or you never hear from them again because they dont wanna admit they should have followed the advice. In contrast there are many players here that started from the micros and studied hard and have acheived a level of poker that sometimes makes me jelous lol with their reads and calls.

Some one has info on your game then you use that to your advantage but the skills to that come from beating the levels and learning new things not starting off in the lowest league and then trying the superbowl final.

I remember reading a story in a Gordon book when I first started about playing Hellmuth and getting a big hand in an important game and stopping before he makes a move and thinking hold on this is what he would expect me to do, instead I shall............. Off tanget a little but I think you understand.

Thanks for your reply I have attained some good stuff from you from the 3rd paragraph on down ..

Thanks again
 
thunder1276

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BRM FTW 100 buyins minimum. This is key to ever beating this game. But also studying some game theory wouldn't hurt. IMO it's important to play a proven winning strategy. If your consistantly getting it in good then your not playing correctly. The correct way of playing is often shoving weaker hands than that which will call you and depending on a thing cal foldequity. The truth is a good player will have a higher roi in the lower stakes even though the rake% is higher at these stakes.

This is some awful advice. The only way to win at the low stakes games is to consistently get your money in good. This means your playing good solid hands and folding when you are beat. This is a good foundation to your poker skills. The reason that a good player will have better ROI at the lower games than the higher ones is because the skill level down there is much less than they are used to and they will be able to make more reads easier and play based on a more straight forward form of poker. Also fold equity is not something you "depend" on. You use it to determine how much your hand will improve added by the fact that your opponent will fold. 2 problems with this advice. 1. to determine fold equity accurately you have to have a somewhat reliable ability to read hands, which at the low levels, most people are not so great. 2. there is no folding alot of the time at the low levels so with a fold equity of 0 or 20% your hand is not going to improve very much.
 
cjatud2012

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BRM FTW 100 buyins minimum. This is key to ever beating this game. But also studying some game theory wouldn't hurt. IMO it's important to play a proven winning strategy. If your consistantly getting it in good then your not playing correctly. The correct way of playing is often shoving weaker hands than that which will call you and depending on a thing cal foldequity. The truth is a good player will have a higher roi in the lower stakes even though the rake% is higher at these stakes.

This is some awful advice. The only way to win at the low stakes games is to consistently get your money in good. This means your playing good solid hands and folding when you are beat. This is a good foundation to your poker skills. The reason that a good player will have better ROI at the lower games than the higher ones is because the skill level down there is much less than they are used to and they will be able to make more reads easier and play based on a more straight forward form of poker. Also fold equity is not something you "depend" on. You use it to determine how much your hand will improve added by the fact that your opponent will fold. 2 problems with this advice. 1. to determine fold equity accurately you have to have a somewhat reliable ability to read hands, which at the low levels, most people are not so great. 2. there is no folding alot of the time at the low levels so with a fold equity of 0 or 20% your hand is not going to improve very much.

Actually it's pretty good advice for STT's (which it seems OP is interested in, if this were ring the advice would be totally different). During the high blind phase of the tournament it's really really important to shove wide, which inevitably means we'll be getting in our money bad. ICM shows us that this is profitable, plus you also have to keep in mind that the blinds are constantly escalating so you have to keep on stealing the blinds by shoving just to stay alive. Add in the fact that a lot of players, especially at micro/low limits, will play tighter than they should at high blinds (and looser than they should at low blinds), then we can steal even wider and show a profit in the long run according to ICM.

Believe it or not this is actually where most of our profits come from. We won't usually gain much equity from doubling up early, as there are more players remaining and therefore the total tournament equity has to be shared among more players. In the late game there are more opportunities to gain equity by blind stealing, and as the game gets more short handed these gains become greater and greater. This is also usually the part of the tournament where our opponents play the worst, i.e. they have the most leaks here. So by taking advantage of the frequent +$EV opportunities along with the +$EV spots that our bad opponents provide us, shoving wide becomes the single most important part of our game.

So if there aren't times where we shove 65o from the SB into the BB and he wakes up with KK :eek: then yes, we're playing too tight, because the majority of the time we'll steal the blinds uncontested and really increase our equity in the long run. It's not about "getting it in good", it's about making +$EV plays. Ask Collin Moshman and he'd tell you the same thing. :D
 
cjatud2012

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I guess I ought to actually respond to OP, lol, basically in STT's (if that's gonna be your main game) you really need to use good BRM. It's really easy to go on a big downswing in STT's, and the reason is you have more showdowns in STT's than you do in cash, and just because you're the "favorite" to win the hand doesn't mean you're entitled to always win it. There will be stretches where you simply cannot win a 50/50, 60/40, 70/30, 80/20 when you get it all-in pre-flop. It's not because you're the most unlucky player in the world or because online poker is rigged, it's because it's really not statistically improbable to lose many of the situations consecutively.

So to combat this you need to assure that you won't go broke, which is accomplished through strict bankroll management. If you want to play $10 or $20 SNG's (I don't recommend it, but if that's where you wanna start that's fine), you'd probably wanna deposit a significant amount of money, not just $100, because you can lose that in the blink of an eye. Rather, put down enough so you have 50-100 buy-ins for whichever game you choose to play.
 
cjatud2012

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Actually it's pretty good advice for STT's (which it seems OP is interested in, if this were ring the advice would be totally different). During the high blind phase of the tournament it's really really important to shove wide, which inevitably means we'll be getting in our money bad. ICM shows us that this is profitable, plus you also have to keep in mind that the blinds are constantly escalating so you have to keep on stealing the blinds by shoving just to stay alive. Add in the fact that a lot of players, especially at micro/low limits, will play tighter than they should at high blinds (and looser than they should at low blinds), then we can steal even wider and show a profit in the long run according to ICM.

Believe it or not this is actually where most of our profits come from. We won't usually gain much equity from doubling up early, as there are more players remaining and therefore the total tournament equity has to be shared among more players. In the late game there are more opportunities to gain equity by blind stealing, and as the game gets more short handed these gains become greater and greater. This is also usually the part of the tournament where our opponents play the worst, i.e. they have the most leaks here. So by taking advantage of the frequent +$EV opportunities along with the +$EV spots that our bad opponents provide us, shoving wide becomes the single most important part of our game.

So if there aren't times where we shove 65o from the SB into the BB and he wakes up with KK :eek: then yes, we're playing too tight, because the majority of the time we'll steal the blinds uncontested and really increase our equity in the long run. It's not about "getting it in good", it's about making +$EV plays. Ask Collin Moshman and he'd tell you the same thing. :D

sorry if it seems like I'm spamming this thread now (and derailing quite a bit tbh), but I'm back on my own computer now, so I wanted to elaborate a little on this with SNGWiz.

Let's assume we're 5-handed in a 9-man turbo, the blinds are t250/t500 and all players have t2700 stacks, which is roughly 20% equity here. We're in the SB and the action folds to us. We have 32o. Our opponent tells us that if we shove, he'll call with any pocket pair, any ace, and any two broadway cards. Should we shove? Absolutely, and in fact it's not really a close decision.

The reason is because we stand to gain t500 chips, which represents a substantial increase to our tournament equity, let's say it increases our equity by about 5%. Given the range he said he'll call with, we'll only get called about 25% of the time, so 75% of the time we're increasing our equity by a ton, uncontested. The 25% of the time he does call, we have ~30% equity:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 71.289% 70.79% 00.50% 5120061492 36095076.00 { 22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 28.711% 28.21% 00.50% 2040520452 36095076.00 { 32o }

(I'm rounding a little to make the math a little easier).

Obviously the 70% of the time he calls and we lose our equity drops to zero, but when we in our equity jumps probably near 35%. So doing some quick math:

x = .25*[.7*(0%-20%)+.3(35%-20%)] + .75*(25%-20%)
x = 1.375% gain in equity on average

I've attached a photo of SNGWiz showing the exact numbers in this spot (like I said, I rounded a lot to make some of the math easier). Obviously this spot was extremely simplified because we knew exactly what the villain's calling range was, in game we won't know for sure but if we have a HUD or have been paying attention we should be able to determine somewhat how wide/narrow he will be calling. If he's calling tighter, we shove wider. If he's calling wider, we shove tighter. At the end of the day when you start to add up all of the $EV's of these spots, you're burning money if you don't take advantage of these situations.
 

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Clambake420

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I guess I ought to actually respond to OP, lol, basically in STT's (if that's gonna be your main game) you really need to use good BRM. It's really easy to go on a big downswing in STT's, and the reason is you have more showdowns in STT's than you do in cash, and just because you're the "favorite" to win the hand doesn't mean you're entitled to always win it. There will be stretches where you simply cannot win a 50/50, 60/40, 70/30, 80/20 when you get it all-in pre-flop. It's not because you're the most unlucky player in the world or because online poker is rigged, it's because it's really not statistically improbable to lose many of the situations consecutively.

So to combat this you need to assure that you won't go broke, which is accomplished through strict bankroll management. If you want to play $10 or $20 SNG's (I don't recommend it, but if that's where you wanna start that's fine), you'd probably wanna deposit a significant amount of money, not just $100, because you can lose that in the blink of an eye. Rather, put down enough so you have 50-100 buy-ins for whichever game you choose to play.



what he said...seriously BRM is the most important thing you could ever stick to when playing online poker. sorry my post is not very full of information but its all been said, im just reassuring what the experts have already said. MTT have the most variance so if your not playing within your BR, your roll is going to quickly be affected (obviously). Im just speaking from someone who is on a slump, practicing strict BRM and still have not fallen below desperation time. haha, but dont listen to me...listen to the other people who know what there talking about
 
BelgoSuisse

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what he said...seriously BRM is the most important thing

I absolutely disagree. From what OP has posted, we clearly should not assume that he is a +EV player, on the contrary. For players whose expectation is to lose money any time they sit down at a table, no amount of BRM will prevent them from going broke in the long term. I may make it slower, but that's budgeting the cost of your hobby, not BRM.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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That is so utterly irrelevant to the fact you are or not a winning player at this game that my guess is that you're a fish that got lucky early on. And BRM won't do you any good if you're -EV.

Well I guess there are two way of looking at this. On one hand a skilled player wouldn't even bother looking at this stat, knowing it to be meaningless, on the other hand a winning player can expect the majority of eliminations to be a result of getting money in with >50% equity.

Given that a skilled player also wouldn't entertain the notion of moving up to escape bad beats it's more likely you're right as regards OP being a losing player, I guess.

Look OP, SNGs are, broken down to their simplest form, a sequence of gambles for stacks. If you don't like that, don't play them. Even if, for example, you get your stack in twice as a 60% favourite, it's actually significantly more likely that you'll be eliminated than still in after the second hand, seeing as assuming you're playing for your entire stack in both cases you only need to lose one of the two hands in order for you to be eliminated. Add a third iteration and it becomes even more likely you'll be out, and so on. Yet if you just look at the final hand that you got knocked out on and your equity in that, you will fall victim to the incorrect notion that you were somehow "unlucky".
 
LuckyChippy

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50nl hu might be a little outside itself ummm.But then hell i can;t talk about brm myself i think it's a good idea untill i get stuck,up,even,or bored.

Lol owned.

What I do for myself I do not suggest to others and that statement was a little silly.

Anyways I'm still a winner at that game haha, and at least I didn't play it through tilt or anything, I just wanted to play HU for a bit :) Back at 5nl now anyway haha :)
 
xdeucesx

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theres so much variance in mtt's especially at the micro stakes
 
dontshiveagit

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I feel like higher sit and go's are not as crazy. People in lower sit and gos always go for the all in preflops that really mess with me epsecially 1v1 with a decent hand. It seems to me I never win these battles.

In higher levels I feel like its more skill then luck. But thats just my opinion.
 
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