The stupid AA thing continued. Warning: This is long.

Four Dogs

Legend
Silver Level
Just for fun, and just because I have way too much time on my hands, I’ve put together a little story.

Lets have it be a dialog, I like them. And let’s use characters from a book I once tried to read called Gödel, Escher, Bach: Couldn’t understand it but it may make me seem like I know what I’m talking about and I’ll take all the help I can get. And oh yeah, any similarities between the characters in this story or the events depicted within is purely coincidental.

Achilles: Hey, a friend of mine lets call him Diablblanco wants to know what his chance of getting dealt AA is.

Tortoise: When?

Achilles: What do you mean when? Whenever.

Tortoise: 100%

Achilles: What are smokin’ man? That’s nuts.

Tortoise: Somethin’ from brazil. Want some?

Achilles: No, no I mean the 100% thing, that’s nuts.

Tortoise: By whenever, if you mean ever, the 100% is correct; assuming your friend actually plays poker of course.

Achilles: OK, I see your point, and yes I’ll have some. What is his chance of getting it on the next hand?

Tortoise: Oh, let me pull out my HP-48GX and run the numbers. Aha, 4…52…divide 3…51 divide, multiply, invert and presto! 221:1

Achilles: Just what my good friend Icepari said it would be.

Now, Diablo heard from some asshole, let’s call him Bpazjr, that the odds would be something crazy like 48,841:1 to get AA back to back. But that make absolutely no sense. If it’s 221:1 once, it’s 221:1 twice and forever after. Tell me Tortoise; since you’re so smart, just what are the odds of that happening?

Tortoise: Is.

Achilles: Excuse me.

Tortoise: You said are. You meant is.

Achilles: Are we talking math or grammar here I may be a little punk but I think I know what the definition of the word are is.

Tortoise: Apparently not because you see, Mr. Jr., although an asshole, is correct, getting dealt AA is a single event, and getting them back to back is also a single event that is exponentially less likely to happen.

Achilles: No you stupid turtle its 2 consecutive but separate events that should have the same likelihood of happening. WHY CAN’T YOU SEE THAT?

Tortoise: I’m a tortoise.

Achilles: What’s the difference?

Tortoise: I can’t swim.

Achilles: Oh sorry. But WHY CAN’T YOU SEE THAT?

Tortoise: We tortoises have bad eyesight. But anyway, it gets worse. What if I told you that it doesn’t even matter if it happens back to back?

Achilles: I’d say you should go back to chewing lettuce ‘cause this Brazilian shit is turning you into a fruit cake.

Tortoise: You Greek heroes have never been known for your brains, Odysseus excepted. I can see I’m going to need some visual aides to demonstrate my point.

Tortoise momentarily disappears into his shell and after a protracted period of rummaging sounds and slamming drawers, reemerges with a dime bag and 10 crisp, mint in the box, decks of Hoyle cards.

Achilles: What’s that for?

Tortoise: Don’t worry, I’ll share.

Achilles: I meant the cards.

Tortoise: That’s the visual aide. How’s your math?

Achilles: It’s always been my Achilles heel.

Tortoise: Very funny. Do you know the odds of getting dealt a pair, any pair?

Achilles: That jerk Bpaz says it’s 16:1 but I don’t believe anything he says. Did you know he got kicked outa here for being such an a-hole. Besides, I keep getting 17:1.

Tortoise: Yes, well, once again that’s why you’re a dumb Greek and I’m a proud member of the Chordate Phylum. It’s 16:1. We’ll save that math for later.

Tortoise breaks the seal on the cards and with deft fingers uncharacteristic of his kind, proceeds to lay out all 10 decks on the table in front of them. Did I mention they’re in a pub? It’s a big table. And oh yeah, they must be in Amsterdam. This curious behavior has now caught the attention of the patrons who have, up to no, been bickering amongst themselves about stupid things like “the dangers of playing unsuited pairs” and “ why it’s better to fold when you can check”. They consist of a secret agent, some hick from Tennessee wearing a crimson t-shirt, four condescending looking dogs sitting at a table by the door, and the bartender Nick who, while happy about the amount of beer he’s selling, has become increasingly annoyed by the demeanor of those involved.

Tortoise: OK you demi god you, pick a card, any card.

Achilles: Very well, I’ll play your game. I choose this card from deck #1. Wow, what do you know, it’s the ace of spades. What were the odds of that happening?

The crowed erupts in laughter save for one man who rises from his chair disgusted, insisting that the game is rigged. Tortoise himself cracks a smile at this.

Tortoise: Well, I wouldn’t have bet more than a buck against your 13 of it, and speaking of bucks, here’s one of mine. What would you bet that the next card you draw from this deck will be one of the 3 remaining aces?

Achilles: Certainly not more than 7 or 8 cents.

Tortoise: Alright! 16:1 odds. Not too shabby for a dumb Greek. I think I’ll make out in the long run, but all-in-all, not to shabby. And what did we say the odds were pulling them out of this single deck together?

Achilles: C’mon Tortoise, we’ve been through this already. The odds are 221:1.

Tortoise: And may we call the act of drawing 2 consecutive aces from a single deck a single event?

Achilles: I guess so. Yes. Getting dealt pocket aces is one event.

Tortoise: With the same probability of drawing a single ace?

Achilles: Please Tortoise don’t treat me like a complete idiot. Anyone with half a ganglion of intelligence can see that the odds of getting 2 aces are less than one.

Tortoise: Why?

Achilles: Well, there are more of them for one thing?

Tortoise: By the same logic, if you’re willing to treat the pocket pair as one event, which is really just the combined act of getting the same card twice, and you don’t argue the math, then it should follow that getting dealt 2 consecutive pocket pairs is just a more extreme example of the same thing.

Achilles: Not at all. The odds will be the same forever, and besides, 48,841:1 is such a big number that it should never happen and I met a guy that says he saw it happen not 2, but three times in a row. Explain that!

The crowd now erupts in applause for Achilles flawless yet circular logic. The Secret Agent shouts out that he knows what he means.

Tortoise: This is going to be tougher than I thought.

Nick the bartender comes over and asks them all to keep it down as he refills the empty mugs.

Achilles: No prob Nick, just trying to keep it fresh whatever that means. Hey Tortoise what about the other 9 decks you got out?

Tortoise: I was going to demonstrate how consecutive hands don’t matter, but it seems pointless now.

Achilles: Oh come on, don’t be a sore ass. As you can see were all completely enthralled by your complex explanation of what to everyone here seems so simple. I am perfectly willing to admit when I’m wrong, but so far you haven’t been able to demonstrate anything to convince me that I am.

Tortoise feels like withdrawing into his shell but never one to run from a fight decides to give it one more try.

Tortoise: OK, the whole thing has nothing to do with the specific cards or the fact that they’re drawn back-to-back.

Achilles: This is gonna be good.

Tortoise: And for me to do this you must pretend to accept my numbers for the sake of argument.

Achilles: Yeah, OK whatever.

Tortoise: Instead of looking at each stack of cards as a separate deck, let’s look at them as separate hands. Now, what are your chances of pulling a pair from deck 1?

Achilles: 16:1

Tortoise: And deck 5?

Achilles: The same.

Tortoise: How about if you’re looking for something specific say, AA from deck 3.

Achilles: 221:1

Tortoise: Good, I agree.

Tortoise: What if I ask you to pull AA from Decks 3 and 4?

Achilles: Still 221:1.

Tortoise: Humor me.

Achilles: OK. Like 48,000:1, cause there back-to-back.

Tortoise: No. not because they’re back to back, but because they’re preselected.

Achilles: What does that have to do with it?

Tortoise: You’re making a prediction before you’ve seen any cards as to their value. Now how about AA from deck 3 and 7?

Achilles: No idea, they’re no longer back-to-back.

Tortoise: Doesn’t matter its still 48,841:1 because you’re predicting an exact pair of cards in an exact order. One last question. What are your chances of pulling 22 from deck 10 and 77 from deck 5?

Achilles: How the hell could anyone figure that out you stupid old fossil? Now we’re not even using the same pair for cryin’ out loud!

Tortoise: Stupid, that’s pretty funny coming from a guy who couldn’t even figure out that you should at least cover the one spot on your body where you could get hurt. Listen, the cards don’t matter, the order doesn’t matter, it’s just the act of predicting when and where it happens you dumb shit!

This nonsense is too much for the crowd to take and they start brandishing their pitchforks. Not liking any sort of controversy, Nick has Tortoise banished from the Pub forever along with his friends Galileo and Copernicus. Achilles, ever the hero is lofted onto the shoulders of the patrons and forever hailed as a great visionary with the likes of Ptolemy and Malthus.

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bubbasbestbabe

Suckout Queen
Silver Level
I'm loving it. Tortoise I think has the right idea I'm just a blond but it seems to me that the odds will always be 221:1 for AA because that's the future of pulling them from the decks but once you've drawn them if it happens 2 or 3 or 4 times in a row the odds change because you are looking at a past event.( I had this on good authority from Albert Einstein)

woodsy44

Rock Star
Silver Level
Dont mean to be rude but who cares what the odds are of getting AA or AA back to back. If you get AA then well done. If you dont, who cares. play the cards you are dealt. Why are so many people bothered about the odds?

Four Dogs

Legend
Silver Level
That's not being rude. Your right. It really serves no purpose in poker, because you should only be concerned with things that are worth considering in order to determine your pot odds or the odds of winning or losing your hand. For that matter, knowing that the odds of getting AA dealt once is irrelevant. How many times will you need to know if your odds are greater than 221:1 before you call or fold a bet. But it is a statistical question, and poker is a game of statistics. Those of us who believe that there's more to the game than blind luck are interested because we want to control it.
Others who believe that the game is controlled by luck are interested because flukey occurences like back-to-back AA seem vindicate their superstitions. And finally, there are those who feel that the super rare events described above prove that on-line games are rigged. Most people fall into 1 of those 3 catagories. But there's a 4th group. Those who just don't care. Personally, talk about bonuses or how to figure a raked hand, bores the socks off me.

diabloblanco

Legend
Silver Level
Wow, you do have a lot of time on your hands fourdogs. To formulate all of those vieled insults, most directed at me, must have taken a long time. I must admit, if you had just written what you wanted to say in paragraph form rather than making it into a Schoolhouse Rock episode, I may have actually read the entire thing. Alas, I get bored easily, especially when I am the target of hidden jabs. Don't you think that discussion is much better served in a traditional question and answer format rather than one participant channeling the ghost of dead playwrights in an attempt to make a point? Besides, why is this in the lounge, in a new thread?

I still can't get over the effort you put into that post. Any question you brought up is answered ad nauseum in my original thread, and my last post contains a couple questions for you to answer. Lets keep it all in one place so that the people that are actually interested in it, can read it all where it started instead of posting some diatribe in the lounge in an attempt to garner support from the masses (most of which wonder why 72o is a bad hand and have never played in a B&M casino).