Reaction Clonie Gowen's FTP law suit

WEC

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A verbal contract is not worth the paper it is written on.

Well, can not say anything else here but you are completely wrong.

Verbal contracts in the United States are completely binding in contract law and many large verdicts many of us have heard of were based on verbal contracts.

Yeah, harder to prove obviously, but just as valid as a written contract except a couple excepted classes (one being Real Estate Transactions must be in writing).


My take on the whole thing is Gowen would not have gone through all this trouble if she was not promised what she has asked for.

I mean, she must have reasoned that many people (especially poker players she sees everyday) would be against her for taking this action.
 
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Adventurebound2

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There's so little REAL information coming out about this -

Until some actual evidence is made public there makes little sense in passing judgment as some posters have. We need a legitimate link that discloses all facts and evidence placed in court, not just a link to some one who is not named in the case spouting their personal view of a situation.


Question, acording to a post FTP is worth an appox. 40B now, what was it worth in '04 when this alegedly started? What was FTP willing to do at that time to capture the American and/or World market considering the outlook of a massive online poker business growth at that time? Hmmmm......
 
Crystal Blue

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Until some actual evidence is made public there makes little sense in passing judgment as some posters have. We need a legitimate link that discloses all facts and evidence placed in court, not just a link to some one who is not named in the case spouting their personal view of a situation.


Question, acording to a post FTP is worth an appox. 40B now, what was it worth in '04 when this alegedly started? What was FTP willing to do at that time to capture the American and/or World market considering the outlook of a massive online poker business growth at that time? Hmmmm......

My thoughts exactly, 2004 and 2008 are completely different so far as what poker sites were doing then and what they are doing now. In the summer of 2003 Moneymakers wsop ME success changed everything for online poker.

I would imagine after the summer of 2003 and for the next 12-18 months, there would of been a hell of a lot of weird and wonderful deals going on between sites and pros. Everyone and their dog were getting the online poker bug post Moneymaker, the big poker sites were filling their boots and a lot of pros were benefiting from this by being the "face(s) of these sites.

If 40 billion is the figure in 2008, then it was nowhere near as much in 2004, ask yourself, when did you join FTP?, was it before 2003/2004?
 
Crystal Blue

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So far ( as far as I can find out ) only Daniel Negreanu of the poker pros has spoken out publicly in a forum about the Clonie Gowen v Full Tilt suit.
That was until this weekend when Barry Greenstein decided to have his little say.


In direct response to Negreanu's comments, his Team pokerstars stablemate Barry Greenstein made the following comments on his Pokerroad forum:

I don't agree with Daniel about it ruining her for poker, but maybe he just means that it is very tough for the average tournament player to make enough to pay the bills without any sponsorship. I don't get the feeling that Clonie supplements her income with side game winnings, although she does make something from poker boot camps.

For all the criticism about her play, she has won two decent tournaments this year and three (out of three) Poker After Darks. That makes her sixth on the all time money list for women in poker. I wouldn't count invitational events, but even without them she would be in the top ten.

I vaguely recall her telling me a few years back that she thought she was going to get some stock, but I would have thought she would have gotten that cleared up within a year of representing the company. It certainly seems strange to bring it up after all these years


Greenstein then commented later on after speaking with Gowen directly:
I just got off the phone with Clonie
1. She always thought she had a piece but was told because of the grey area with poker that there were reasons that things weren't in writing.
2. She has been pursuing her piece in writing ever since the distributions went out a year and a half ago.
3. She had been negotiating in private but she was unable to get anything done so she had to get a lawyer. (Full Tilt offered a settlement that she rejected.)
4. She also questioned why poker players were named in the suit, but her attorney told her that it had to be done that way since they were owners and also so that their paperwork could be subpoenaed.
5. Daniel doesn't like her. (no kidding!)
 
aliengenius

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Don't forget, this apparent agreement was made in 2004 ( 4 years ago ) when things were really starting to take off.
Moneymaker won the ME in 2003, and Raymer took it down in 2004 and there was an enormous amount of activity going on with the big poker sites as a result of it.

Also, it could be argued FTP had no idea what kind of future results Clonie Gowen would ever post for the next 4 years. They were buying into what they perceived at that point in time and what they hoped for in the future.

There is nothing to say that Tiffany Michelle wont run bad for UB over the course of the next 4 years and have nothing much in the way of big results. As with Clonie and FTP even though it was 4 years ago, UB are buying into Tiffany based on the here and now, what happens further down the road can be very different.

Spot on. Clearly it's conceivable that they offered her 1%-- they had a very hot commodity in one of the few (at the time) good [looking] female players. How many "original" FT pros were there? She was very early on if not in on the ground level. Anyone who thinks that Ivey, Lederer, et. al., don't have ownership interest (despite US laws) are simply naive.

fwiw, I'm a big CG fan: she is LAG-awesome, rivaled only by Eric Seidel imo.
 
OzExorcist

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has anybody noticed the rumor about David Benyamine..I have seen this new player MrB2USon on the pro tables and I have reason to believe that is David Benyamine on a new account..He is not in red bold so does that mean hes not a PRO?? Any input would be awesome..

It's not a rumour - Degenyamine isn't a sponsored red pro any more. It happens from time to time: Layne Flack got dropped a while back, for example.
 
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i agree with what daniel has said in his blog.

from what i've ever seen of clonie on TV on the likes of PAD etc. i have really liked her and thought she had a great personality but this his kinda changed my mind a bit, greed is the first thing that comes to mind.

however, who am i to question when i, like everyone else, have no idea about what has been agreed in deals in the past and the like.

oh well, hope this gets sorted properly and doesnt wreck her as a poker player.
 
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I just want to see the poker after dark coming up with Gowen, Lederer, Juanda, Negreanu et all. THAT is gonna be a STEAMBOAT week.

They could call it the Full Tilt Feud show...

hahahahah, steamboat week, that'd be awesome!!

would certainly make for better viewing than the recent shows, especially the one with the Mayfair club theme.
 
SAH89

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Look, she could have been offered 1%, remember FTP is still fairly new there is no way they could have gotten all the pros they have, particularly early when they started on without giving them big deals. But with the economic crisis, there is no way in hell that FTP is worth $4 billion.

I'd like to see the lawsuit papers, they should be online (I think) if they have already filed.
 
OzExorcist

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But with the economic crisis, there is no way in hell that FTP is worth $4 billion

How do you figure?

They've been taking rake since 2004, have regular action at the highest stakes on the net, and promotion is about their only real overhead. $4 billion sounds plausible to me. It's not a public company either, so I don't figure they're going to be that badly exposed to any economic crisis.
 
Crystal Blue

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* Sorry for the long post but this is important stuff *

This was posted 10 days ago and gives us a bit more insight into the situation following Clonie's suit. I have to say, some of the information below certainly fits in with her claims. ( assuming they are accurate )

It seems pretty clear to me that Clonie became part of the FTP setup right from it's beginnings and was equally included in the very early meet ups where the MAJORITY of " Team Full Tilt" members were present.

Clonie claims a meeting with Raymond Bitar in her own home in Texas took place in April 2004 where an oral agreement for 1% ownership interest was agreed.
That 1 month later in May 2004 she was present at a meeting in Phil Ivey's suite at the Golden Nugget along with other " Team Full Tilt " members where they were all informed by Howard Lederer that their ownership interest also included the company Tiltware.

Also, at the time of FTP's launch in May 2004 she was accredited as one of the people who where instrumental in the creation of the sites software design.

Even if it turns out that FTP deny Clonie had any input in the development of its software, it seems to me that they will have made a big error purely by announcing that she had.
Another suspicious aspect of this whole thing is the part where " Team Full Tilt " members started receiving distribution checks from May 2007 and onwards yet Clonie herself received nothing. Why would that be?

It looks to me as though by May 2007 and probably some time prior to that, some kind of fallout/breakdown between Clonie and FTP/Tiltware must have taken place.

The " Discovery Phase " of this suit will be the most interesting part IMO if any of the defendants file an answer as opposed to file a motion to dismiss.
Comparing their agreements ( oral or otherwise ) to hers will shed a huge amount of light on her claims.









Gowen vs. Full Tilt: Next steps

By Shari Geller


As reported earlier by PokerListings, Gowen's complaint alleges five causes of action: breach of contract, breach of fiduciary duty, breach of the covenant of good faith and fair dealing, unjust enrichment and fraud.
Gowen seeks damages in excess of $40 million - which she alleges is 1% of the companies' estimated value - plus the value of her services to Full Tilt, as well as punitive damages.
Although the various causes of action depend on different legal theories for their validity, they all arise from the same set of facts.
Gowen claims that in April of 2004 she entered into an oral agreement wherein she was given a 1% ownership interest in the Full Tilt-related companies in exchange for her agreement to represent the Full Tilt brand as a celebrity poker player. She was thereafter listed on Full Tilt's Web site as a member of Team Full Tilt, and represented Full Tilt as a celebrity endorser in the media and at events.
From 2004 to the present, according to the suit, Gowen has performed all of her obligations under the agreement, but has not received any monetary distributions, despite the fact that starting in May 2007, her fellow Team Full Tilt members each began receiving distribution checks from the companies.
Gowen does claim that on Nov. 6, 2007, Lederer offered to pay her approximately $250,000 for her "past performance" on behalf of the company, but that she rejected this offer because it was only a fraction of what was owed to her.
Gowen alleges that she continued to offer her services as a member of Team Full Tilt until Nov. 11, 2008, when she was told by the defendants that they would be issuing a press release informing the public that she was no longer a member of the team. Her lawsuit followed.
Breach of contract alleged

Gowen's breach of contract claim - which is alleged against all of the defendants - is relatively straightforward (we had an agreement, you breached it), although it is not clear why the cause of action includes Harman-Traniello, Matusow, Cunningham, Hansen and Antonius as defendants, since they did not seem to be owners of Full Tilt or Team Full Tilt Pro members at the time of the alleged oral agreement.
The fact that there is no written contract between Gowen and the companies will not prevent her from pursuing this claim since oral agreements generally are as enforceable as written agreements, except under certain circumstances which do not appear to apply here.
However, oral agreements typically present more difficult proof issues, as the parties may have an entirely different understanding as to what they were agreeing to.
"Minority oppression"?

Gowen's breach of fiduciary duty claim is brought against just the individual defendants, under a "minority oppression" theory. She alleges that as a minority shareholder, she suffered unjust and inequitable treatment at the hands of the rest of the shareholders of the companies in a number of ways.
She alleges that she was not allowed to vote on matters involving the companies and was not advised of the companies' financial status or their day-to-day operations. She claims that she was effectively frozen out of the companies' affairs and further claims the other shareholders made distribution payments to themselves, while paying her nothing.
Faithful to Full Tilt, to her detriment

In her fraud cause of action, Gowen makes additional factual allegations to establish that the defendants made certain intentional misrepresentations to her, which she relied on to her detriment.
She claims that that she had a meeting with Bitar at her home in Texas in April 2004, and that Bitar offered her a 1% ownership interest in the various Full Tilt companies in exchange for her agreeing to represent the Full Tilt brand as their "female pro," beginning with her representing Full Tilt at the upcoming World Series of Poker.
Gowen further alleges that a month later, she attended a meeting in defendant Ivey's suite at the Golden Nugget in Las Vegas where the majority of other Team Full Tilt members were present and in which Lederer informed the group that their ownership interest was not only in Full Tilt but also in Tiltware.
Based on the statements made at these two meetings, Gowen claims, she joined Full Tilt, performed all her responsibilities as a member of Team Full Tilt, and did not pursue any other outside opportunities.
The next step in the litigation is for the various defendants to be served with the Complaint. At that point, they can either file a motion to dismiss (which typically only deals with jurisdictional or pleading shortcomings and not the substantive merits of the claims), or they can file an Answer.
Once the defendants have filed their Answers, the case will proceed to the formal discovery phase, where both sides can conduct depositions and request documents and answers to written questions.
Discovery phase may shed light

In this type of case, discovery can be quite illuminating. It will flesh out what was said, when it was said, and what conduct everyone engaged in. This will help determine from a legal standpoint whether the parties entered into an enforceable agreement, whether there were misrepresentations, what the parties' respective obligations were and what the potential damages are.
Particularly interesting will be the discovery concerning the terms of the agreements with the other original Team Full Tilt members, as well as the statements made by the defendants around the time that Gowen claims that she entered into her agreement.
For example, in announcing the launch of Full Tilt Poker back in May 2004, TiltWare referred to its roster of professional poker players - specifically naming Gowen along with Ivey, Ferguson and others - as a unique and special feature of the site.
The announcement included the statement that "the software was designed by some of the world's finest and most notable poker players, including Andy Bloch, Chris Ferguson, Phil Gordon, Clonie Gowen, Phil Ivey, John Juanda, Howard Lederer, Erick Lindgren and Erik Seidel, also known as 'Team Full Tilt.'"
"Our entire team is passionate about poker and is intrigued by this cultural phenomenon that is sweeping the country," Bob Wolf, chief marketing officer of TiltWare, LLC, is quoted as saying at the time.
"We ultimately formed TiltWare to develop better, more effective online poker software, but could never have been successful without the expertise and talent of some of the world's leading poker players that comprise Team Full Tilt. Together, we are making online poker a fun, seamless and secure experience."
Gowen's case will present many thorny issues that will keep the poker community riveted for quite some time. Next year may have two main events - one at the Rio and one at the courthouse.
 
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everything that is spoken today, will be the wiser Precipitation.Acho which is currently awaiting an official position and then starting form opinions.:confused:
 
colquhounx

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I,guess,she,wont,e,on,poker,after,dark,anymore
 
Team_Ramrod

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I agree, hard to judge from what little information has been given. I was also shocked to see Daniel's response to the matter, kid poker needs to calm down a little bit
 
PokerVic

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Clonie claims a meeting with Raymond Bitar in her own home in Texas took place in April 2004 where an oral agreement for 1% ownership interest was agreed.

These phrases, bolded by me, for no reason whatsover. :D
 
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Personally, I would say that Daniel was never a fan of Connie's even before this lawsuit. I mean, do you think he would say the same things if it were J. Harmen who was in the middle of this lawsuit?
 
Crystal Blue

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I agree, hard to judge from what little information has been given. I was also shocked to see Daniel's response to the matter, kid poker needs to calm down a little bit

Personally, I would say that Daniel was never a fan of Connie's even before this lawsuit. I mean, do you think he would say the same things if it were J. Harmen who was in the middle of this lawsuit?

TBH, Daniel's comments about Clonie were way to harsh as far as I am concerned. He should of had the decency to speak to her personally before sounding off the way he did.
I'm sure he wouldn't of had any trouble acquiring her phone number if he didn't already have it.

Something that happened in 2006 came into my mind when I was reading his comments about Clonie last month.
Back in 2006 Daniel got into a public spat with Greg Raymer via two poker forums about the then "7" pro poker players who were involved in an image rights battle with the WPT set up.

Some cross words were exchanged between the two of them with Daniel basically saying that Raymer and the other six pro players were wrong to pursue their claims against the WPT.
Things got somewhat heated and to dispel the flames Greg posted an apology to Daniel with regards to certain words that were said.
Daniel excepted Greg's apology and at the same time apologised to Greg for any offence that may of been caused.

Daniel went on to say that he still felt the "7" pro players were wrong to be doing what they were doing and argued that Greg's comment about "fighting for the future rights of ALL pro players" was not an accurate thing to say.
Daniel said that he himself personally never asked anyone to fight for his future rights for the betterment of pro poker players and that Greg and the other six were wrong to assume that other players wanted them to.

What struck me about that 2006 comment from Daniel and his comments about Clonie last month is that he has no commercial ties with full tilt poker and is in fact working with their main rival Pokerstars.
With this being the case, why did he feel the need to be a self appointed spokesperson about Full Tilt affairs.

I can only come to one conclusion as to why he made those comments about Clonie, and that would be that he was asked to do so by one or more of his well documented close friends at Full Tilt Poker.
The reason why I didn't include the second conclusion that he was just fighting the corner of his good friends there is simple enough.

If that were the case he would of been doing exactly the same thing he accused Greg Raymer and the other six pro players of doing, fighting the fight without being asked to do so, therefor contradicting himself with regards to his 2006 comment.

I am certainly not saying this is actually the case here but I am saying, that's the way it comes across from where I am sitting.
 
ryodejaneiro

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I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens - I do hate to see a lawsuit like this against FT given the current situation of online poker. Also, about the David Benyamine sponsorship - what I have heard from the grapevine (so very nothing tangible) is that his contract expired at the end of October and as OzExorcist mentioned it MrB2USon is likely him given that he plays the same stakes - his fiancee Erica Schoenberg apparently refers to David as Mr B in her blogs as well. I wonder if he's being courted by any other poker rooms like Stars?

One other thought I had - and this is about Daniel's comments. He's certainly entitled to his opinions but I do think he could've toned down the negativity. That said, I wasn't entirely surprised by his comments because he also criticized Annie Duke several years ago for a variety of reasons. Not to go too far off topic here, but again, I hate to see these types of verbal attacks because it makes poker (online or live) look bad from a non-poker player's perspective.
 
narizblanco

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:joyman: will it be on court-tv or whatever they call that channel now.? Is tere a sexual element here? enquiring minds want to know:joyman:
 
jasonallen28

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Sounds like to me that she is just trying to get a free ride and what not.:deal:
 
donallavery

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i feel sorry for clonie i hope she comes out of it id say its the drugs that has her head ****ed up she should go to rehab and think bout what shes doin
 
arahel_jazz

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Lol. He cant be too sorry. Didnt he just post another thread with his link in it? lol

Both of you (KC/PC) should be SORRY YOU ARE POSTING IN A 2-YEAR OLD BUMMPED THREAD!



oops... mea culpa. :cool:
 
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